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Old 09/15/2011, 01:27 PM   #1
Todd_Sails
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The best, quiet, dependable diy overflow and sump- for non drilled tanks

I started with a Craigs list buy of multiple equipment from a single seller; Everything had been dry for over 3 years. Including a 125 long tank and stand, HOB filters-2, and a HOB protein skimmer, a HOB overflow and a wet/dry sump, small. They got it used b/c they said they never used the Overflow and wet/dry sump.

Eager to get started, after everything was rinsed, It was in my living room, with water and the HOB filters. After a month, I added some fish from another CL buy, and began to use the HOB PS.

I researched, (a little late), and wanted to go with a sump, etc.
You may realize by now I'm a DIY kind of guy.
I didn't want to remove my filled and running tank from my stand/nor cut the end out to get a sump in the stand.
Instead of the wet/dry, I got alot of ideas from many threads, mainly this one:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...bbermaid+sumps

I wanted to try my stand instead of plumpbing to my basement, so that I'd have more flow/less head for the return.
So I opted to try and squeeze a 50g Rubbermaid 'Roughneck' in my stand for my sump. With some grunting and bending (ain't goona happen with a glass/acrylic sump) I got it in the stand via one of my doors.

I then put a smaller tub so the water level would stay constant(also bought at Menards). the sump cost about $15, and the smaller tub for the PS, aobut $3-5.

I bought a Marineland 5500 pump 1385 gph @ 0 head. I tried using the 1 inch HOB overflow, but it couldn't keep up, and I had to also build a bypass into my return lines to keep from overflowing.

I needed more return!

I read many threads on HOB overflows. Most used a smaller intake near the water level. For a small tank, low flow, virtaully no surface skimming, this would be OK. Not for my application however.
I took alot of ideas from this rather long thread starting in 2005, by a 'Covey':
http://www.3reef.com/forums/i-made/n...low-29396.html

At this point, I added a second return, an inferior designed DIY HOB overflow out of PVC- it was 1 inch, with no surface skimming, etc. The 1 inch HOB, and the 1 inch DIY together could barley keep up.

I think it was on this thread that I saw/learned about a design that used a larger upright intake in the DT, to work as as overflow- so that it skimmed the surface, and would shut down in a power outage. (very important)- more on that later.

Then there's this one, but again, it has a small potential for the intake, might be fine for a Fish only tank, maybe:
http://www.aquariumlife.net/projects...erflow/120.asp

From these designs however, I did get my knowledge of:
1. how to maximize flow
2. how to NEVER loose the siphon, even in power outs
3. the ideas to DIY a large volume, surface skimming 'intank overflow'- the same as a drilled tanks vertical intank overflow. Except mine uses a DIY siphon to go over the tanks side, above the waterline.

My current (final) design is 1&1/2 inch thru out. It has an 'intank overflow', that skims only the surface using about 21inches of surface skimming, at about 900 gph.
It ALWAYS keeps the siphon.
It's so large, it will not fail! (sounds like the banks and the TARP bill ;-)
What I mean is that the flow is so fast, that air won't trap and stop the siphon. To be redundant, I added an Aqualifter to the air valve used to start the siphon- and it always pulls water thru it also from the top loop on the siphon. This is where you do not want air building up.

PICS:
1- Is of the Rubbermade sump, fits perfectly in my stand.
2- It's in! under my stand- still enough room to put in a PS, work on it, etc.
3- A side shot showing my 1&1/2 inch outflow into a filter bag. It's now a reverse durso, into the filter bag- for sound suppression. the water then flows into the blue tub that keeps the water level for my PS- also seen. I cut slots at the same level on three sides so that the water flows out into the larger tub.
Then past my Chaeto basket- now nearly triple the chaeto.
You can see the 'bypass, which I now only 'tickle' back into the chaeto backet.
4- The early chaeto backet, and the Return pump. Return is all 1 inch.
5- My DT with the doors open showing the sump system.

In the next post, I'll post the pics of the HOB DIY overflow, with
'intank overflow' skimming.


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Last edited by Todd_Sails; 09/15/2011 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 09/15/2011, 02:11 PM   #2
Todd_Sails
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The best, quiet, dependable diy overflow and sump- for non drilled tanks , PART 2

So, my intank overflow skims surface only, about 21 inches of water, at a constant 900 gph on my 125. Pie (3.14) x D (6.75)

The price of Weir types, etc. to get that would be big!
The price of all my DIY stuff is very low.

If you can drill, then go the BeanAnimal, Herbie, et. al. type of overflow.
But if you want a nice, quiet, reliable DIY = inexpensive, large flow, large surface area skimming 'intank overflow' like the reef ready tanks have, build something similar to mine.

The Basic Design (modified alot by me), is from this nice thread:
http://www.aquariumlife.net/projects...erflow/120.asp
Thanks to the creator of this thread.

EXCEPT- mine is 1&1/2, not 3/4, and mine has an 'Intank Overflow'
so that when the power/pump is off, it only drains to the top of the overflow, like a reef ready tank does!

PICS:
1- The basci design for my 'intank overflow'. I don't use the 90 bend in the bottom of the intake. Disclaimer- this in NOT my diagram- taken from the web.
2- A shot of my 'intank overflow' during the build.
3- My PVC DIY HOB overflow. It's 171/2 inch thruout.
It shows the vent arm also going up, which 'hangs' the tube on
the tank for you. It also shows the one way air valve used for
priming/starting the siphon.
4- 'Intank Overflow' in operation in my DT. Notice the 'cone' of water
flowing into the intake. It falls about 4-6 inches inside, at all times
to where the step down to 4 inch is.
5- A shot of my 'reverse durso' and filter bag, with the PS beside it.

I hope you enjoy, and use any or most of these ideas if you need to modify, or start your own for a non drilled tank.

For me, this was the optimal option, for the least price.
I even have a local plumber that has given me most of the tubes for my build out of discarded scraps.
The remainder is not very expensive. Look for the non schedule 40 PVC, thinner, much less expensive, and more than thick enough for a project like this.


Attached Images
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File Type: jpg IMG_1041.jpg (50.2 KB, 403 views)
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File Type: jpg IMG_1055.jpg (31.1 KB, 398 views)
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Old 09/16/2011, 11:11 AM   #3
Todd_Sails
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In this post, I found that the creator of this overflow did a few simple, but important things wrong, at least for a high flow overflow:
http://www.aquariumlife.net/projects...erflow/120.asp

While my final design is very similar, the Yellow portion in his pics with the 90 bend that goes down to the sump is too high! He had to do it this way, so that in his power offs, the water level would only fall to there. This leads to very low flow volume.

On my overflow, the 'intank surface skimming' tube takes care of the water level dropping very little. (On my 125, I calculated only ab out 5-6 gallons drain down before it stops in power outs.)

With the 90 going to the sump lower, gravity is your friend, and provides great flow. The higher this bend to the sump is, the lower the flow- hydrodynamics, physics, etc.

IN power outs- water stays in the bottom of the intank overflow and the bottom outer loop, because the upright vent loop with a small 1/4 inch hole in it vents it down to where they equalize inside- the loop and the intank overflow.

I power it off all the time for water changes, cleaning, etc. It's been off for hours, and when the return pump quickluy fill the tank level back up, the water flows into the intank overflow, and immediately drains/returns at full flow- every time!

In the post above, the size of my HOB over flow has a typo, and is one and one half inches. (1 & 1/2)-plenty of reserve.

Pics:
1: a side shot showing the whole thing in action. (I have the glass a bit cleaner now). My tank is only about 5 inches from the wall. In my large family room, it looks good.
2: A front angled shot showing it from the front, the 'cone of water' , etc.

Usually a DIY post like this gets a lot of replies.

Maybe b/c my title is mostly lower case and non bolded? What?


Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_1054.jpg (61.6 KB, 404 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1058.jpg (92.6 KB, 294 views)

Last edited by Todd_Sails; 09/16/2011 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 09/16/2011, 08:56 PM   #4
Todd_Sails
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No one with any questions, critiques?

This is working awesome on my set up.


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Old 09/16/2011, 09:23 PM   #5
PoorSwimmer
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what did you use to paint the PVC inside your tank.... I am looking to build the same type setup for my 55 that I am starting on


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Old 09/16/2011, 10:03 PM   #6
T Diddy
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Todd I love the overflow design. Did you cap the bottom end of the 2"PVC?


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Old 09/17/2011, 10:32 AM   #7
Todd_Sails
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorSwimmer View Post
what did you use to paint the PVC inside your tank.... I am looking to build the same type setup for my 55 that I am starting on
A type of Krylon paint, flat balck I bought at Meneards. Krylon Fusion I think it was.


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Old 09/17/2011, 10:33 AM   #8
Todd_Sails
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Diddy View Post
Todd I love the overflow design. Did you cap the bottom end of the 2"PVC?

Tdiddy,

The only 2inch I'm suing is the Reverse durso silencer in my sump.
The bottom of that is open, and the top capped with a 1/4 in hole in it to vent air.

Is this what you're talking about?


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Old 09/17/2011, 10:50 AM   #9
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Thanks for this post. I will likely be taking some of your ideas and implementing this on my frag tank.


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Old 09/17/2011, 11:45 AM   #10
Todd_Sails
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Thank you for the kind words.

These ideas were often others ideas as I menioned.

I just took would I found to be the 'best', and turbocharged it.


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Old 09/17/2011, 01:08 PM   #11
T Diddy
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I was referring to the in-tank overflow...I guess 1.5 inch. Is it capped at the bottom?


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Old 09/17/2011, 01:43 PM   #12
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IMO, youre better off with a used model from the buy and sell, not a DIY one. I picked up a used tunze overflow for about $40 shipped. The smoothly curved suction pipe clears bubbles by itself, because of the smooth, high velocity water flow. Rectangular acrylic and pvc designs must rely on an aqualifter to clear the bubbles which will inevitable make it into the suction pipe.


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Old 09/17/2011, 08:27 PM   #13
Todd_Sails
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Diddy View Post
I was referring to the in-tank overflow...I guess 1.5 inch. Is it capped at the bottom?
T,

Oh, I see.

The HOB portion is 1 and 1/2 thru out.

My 'intank overflow' is a sealed unit.
However, it is 6 and 3/4 inch at the top, and tapers down to 4 inch ID at the bottom.
It is capped and sealed w/ PVC cement throughout.
This is mandatory for it to hold it's siphon in power outs.

For smaller applications, you could go smaller than my build.



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Old 09/17/2011, 08:48 PM   #14
Todd_Sails
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Quote:
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IMO, youre better off with a used model from the buy and sell, not a DIY one. I picked up a used tunze overflow for about $40 shipped. The smoothly curved suction pipe clears bubbles by itself, because of the smooth, high velocity water flow. Rectangular acrylic and pvc designs must rely on an aqualifter to clear the bubbles which will inevitable make it into the suction pipe.
Thanks for the opinion, but I sort of disagree, for these reasons:

My 'intank overflow, flows 21 inches of water, about 1/2 inch thick over the top and into the 'upright overflow' section. Your Tuze have that much skimming linear volume?

And, if I disconnect my aqualifter (cuase it's only for redundancy anyways- kinda like aircraft systems), NOTHING happens. The siph9on will not stop, it's too big, the flo0w is too high to fail. NO air gets trapped in the upper loop.

I build my entire overflow for less than half of $40.


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Old 09/18/2011, 10:27 PM   #15
Todd_Sails
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Tunze overflow?

I Googled this one.

http://www.aquacadabra.co.uk/Tunze-O...ox-1074-2.html

I hope they made one with more flow, 'cause for my application, it wouldn't cut it.



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Old 09/23/2011, 03:14 PM   #16
Todd_Sails
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So,

I cleaned/pumped out my skimmer compartment in my sump, and my sump.
I also Checked the impeller on the return pump (very clean- I was just checking it.).

Taking my time, this took about an hour and a half completing the procedure with about a 25g waterchange.
This whole time my main return was off line, and the DT only drops down about 3/8 of an inch. I also turn off the aqualifter that's pulling from the top of the siphon loop.

Refilled the sump and skimmer compartments, and started it back up again.
I left the aqualifter unplugged on purpose.

As always, the siphon for the intank overflow restarts automatically, no re-priming, etc.

If it's designed right, it always will, and won't fail.


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Old 09/25/2011, 02:29 PM   #17
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Bump,

This really is the best way to go for
1. non drilled tanks
2. Saving tankfulls of money, while getting the best flow rates, etc.
3. Getting the best, surface water run off like an intank overflow does on drilled tanks.
4. Virtually prevent 'water on the floor'


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Old 09/25/2011, 02:52 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd_Sails View Post
Usually a DIY post like this gets a lot of replies.

Maybe b/c my title is mostly lower case and non bolded? What?
No, that's not it...

But, I applaud your enthusiam.


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Old 09/25/2011, 07:24 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd_Sails View Post
Usually a DIY post like this gets a lot of replies.

Maybe b/c my title is mostly lower case and non bolded? What?
Respectfully, much of the reason that the thread is not getting a lot of attention is becuase it is about an HOB overflow (a big bulky one at that). HOBs are not something that most dedicated reefers (especially DIYers) consider a viable alterntive to a drilled tank.

On a side note: bumping your own thread every few days to get kudos for your own project usually generates the opposite effect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd_Sails View Post
If it's designed right, it always will, and won't fail.
Not really (As has been explained in your other HOB threads and conversations).

Your enthusiasmis wonderful but the reality is that your project is an HOB overflow. The key component to your design and that of any other HOB is the siphon ( a u-tube or channel) that must carry water above its at-rest position, in the opposite direction that gravity would take it. This single component (the u-tube) creates a failure mode (inherent to ALL HOBs) that can not be easily designed around.

In an attempt to ensure the integrity of the siphon, some designers use an aqualifter to remove any trapped air that would break the siphon. The problem is that the aqualifter (that has a fairly high failure rate itself) creates a possible air entry point to the u-tube.

Clearly (as you have observed) a higher flow through the U-tube helps to clear any air that is sucked into the tube during operation. So during normal operation your setup is not likely to fail. That sword is double edge though! To create a high flow velocity, the diameter of the u-tube has to be rather small compared to the overall flow. This means that it will take very little accumulated air during a system outage to airlock the tube at startup.

Some designers have helped to minimize this problem by using two or more u-tubes to create redundancy and skipping the aqualifter. With both tubes flowing the overall velocity is lower but the chances of both tubes air-locking at system startup is also lower. If one tube fails during operating, the velocity in the other tubes is increased.

All of this means that the HOB has to be carefully designed to fit the system flow. Designs that fall in the "too big" or "too small" range will work but are far less relaible.

If one really wanted a fail-safe HOB, then adding a latching circuit tied to a high level float switch and the return pump would be an option.


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Old 09/26/2011, 11:32 AM   #20
Todd_Sails
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Yes Bean, and thanks again.

By 'won't fail', I mean that:
- in a power outage, (I've simulated multiple, multi hour ones), the design does not lose it's siphon. Further, the amount of water that 'back siphons' is very small, way under the reserve capacity of my sump.
- It is so large, that unless my 7inch Royal blue tang hops over the intank overflow, gets to the bottom where the intake is to clog it, it will not clog with debirs, etc. I put a few pieces of filter sponge in the top or the intank overflow, to further quiet down the already quiet device. This makes sure any fish hopping over the overflow (hasn't happened yet), will get caught on the sponge where there is plenty of room for water to pass anyways. The 1 1/2 inch, flowing at about 900gph, has kept anything from stopping the siphon.
Oftentimes, when I add water almost daily, I pour it as quick as I can in to the top of the intank overflow. It has so much reserve flow, that the level insice the overflow does not even rise, it just sucks it right down to my sump.

Again, this is for those in my situation- Large reef tank, high flow/turnover needs, and no drilled tank.


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Old 09/26/2011, 01:19 PM   #21
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One thing is that being pvc pipe, you can't see air bubbles collecting at the top of the siphon tube. Water crashing down the long tube will lead to air bubbles and possibly eventual air lock.

Saying it is fail-proof this early in the game is hard for many of us that have suffered through floods to believe when, as Bean said, it's basically a siphon overflow.

But, best of luck. I've got a siphon overflow On my 125g with redundancies in the siphons and the return pumps with a low level shut off switch(not latched) and an emergency drain in the sump just in case. No floods since i've completed it but there's no way i'd call it fail proof.


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Old 09/26/2011, 03:35 PM   #22
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Yes, and thanks.

Yes, it is a siphon overflow.

The top loop of my siphon is running very fast. I've even unpugged the aqualifter for hours, no problem. I have the aqualifter pulling from the top of the siphon loop, just in case something where to build up there.
The intank overflow, goes from 6 3/4, down to 4 inch ID. the DIY overflow is 1 1/2 in.
I agree, this is not 100% fail-proof, I guess if I had a low level shut off in my sump, it would be even more close to fail-proof.

Why would you need a drain in your sump? I'm sure it's nice to have, would your system allow your sump to overflow?


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Old 12/08/2011, 01:50 AM   #23
antdog
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Todd this is AWESOME!

This is JUST what I'm looking for! I'm looking to make a diy overflow for my non-drilled tank.

I have a couple questions. How did you attach the "intank overflow" to the tank? Is it glued down? Is there any fear of the krylon paint breaking down or affecting corals/fish if it gets scratched or comes off in the tank?? Could we see some more pics of the overflow?

Great thread! I plan to steal all your good ideas!

Anthony


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Old 06/22/2018, 08:22 AM   #24
Madriz
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More Pics?

Hi I know this might not be posible, but can you add some more pics; and what return pump are you using to keep up? I want to do this on my 70 gallon

Thanks


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Old 10/17/2018, 06:13 PM   #25
Winston27
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If you put a baffle in your sump if rubbermaid container can bond with some fish safe adhesive then if you ever lost siphon only a small portion of water would pump back up. I hope you know what I mean, I can 3D design it for you if you need but that's what I am doing with my smaller version and will be super easy and wont flood! Hope this helps!


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