Stray voltage?

Aquavaj · 08/06/2018, 10:29 AM

Got zapped pretty good last night when I was standing on damp carpet (made a ATO booboo) and brushed against the metal light hangers. Felt like touching the spark plug on a running lawn mower. Doesn't happen if I stand on dry carpet.

The hangers are screwed onto the wooden backboard of the stand so I don't know how electricity is flowing into them. If I use a volt meter and test it across the hanger and tank water I get 12v AC. Things in the tank that are on AC is the return pump, heater and skimmer pump.

nereefpat · 08/06/2018, 11:59 AM

Heater is the most likely culprit, but it could be anything. Unplug each one while testing to see which device to replace.

GFCIs are a great invention, by the way.

saveafish · 08/06/2018, 12:30 PM

Pumps or heater. It might be a shocking experience but you can pull one out at a time and see if you get zapped.

mcgyvr · 08/07/2018, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saveafish

It might be a shocking experience but you can pull one out at a time and see if you get zapped.

alton · 08/07/2018, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Use a GFCI receptacle and Grounding probe to find the culprit.

Aquavaj · 08/07/2018, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nereefpat

Heater is the most likely culprit, but it could be anything. Unplug each one while testing to see which device to replace.

GFCIs are a great invention, by the way.

It's probably either the return pump or skimmer pump. The heater is on the Apex and was not on at the time. Haven't had a chance to test to determine which one but I'm looking into getting a grounding probe and replacing the outlet with a GFCI.

mcgyvr · 08/07/2018, 10:31 AM

Note: Do NOT use a ground probe without a GFCI..
And make sure that all submerged line powered equipment is on that GFCI..

With many devices being DC now the need for GFCI isn't what it was before..
There is no need to put DC powerheads or return pumps on GFCI..
Only direct line powered (120VAC/220VAC) devices need to be on the GFCI..

But it doesn't hurt to put them all on it.. Just not needed..

hkgar · 08/07/2018, 01:24 PM

There is no reason to have stray voltage in your tank. Something is leaking voltage and you need to determine what it is and replace it.

I test periodically with a volt meter just to be sure.

Aquavaj · 08/07/2018, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Note: Do NOT use a ground probe without a GFCI..
And make sure that all submerged line powered equipment is on that GFCI..

With many devices being DC now the need for GFCI isn't what it was before..
There is no need to put DC powerheads or return pumps on GFCI..
Only direct line powered (120VAC/220VAC) devices need to be on the GFCI..

But it doesn't hurt to put them all on it.. Just not needed..

Why is a gfci required with a ground probe? Also, are inline gfci ok or the outlet type is better suited?

Aquavaj · 08/07/2018, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkgar

There is no reason to have stray voltage in your tank. Something is leaking voltage and you need to determine what it is and replace it.

I test periodically with a volt meter just to be sure.

I am wondering where the voltage is coming from too when the hangers have no direct contact with the water.

hkgar · 08/07/2018, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquavaj

I am wondering where the voltage is coming from too when the hangers have no direct contact with the water.

I messed up. I thought you got zapped from touching water in the tank. What are the hangers used for? Lights? If so, what type?

Aquavaj · 08/07/2018, 03:44 PM

T5/MH fixture. There's 2 brackets that slide on and hung by plastic shielded metal wires. Light fixture casing looks to be powdered coated as well as the brackets but not really sure how thick the powder coating is. All plugs are 3 prong.

I'm going to do some more testing tonight with a volt meter. I was showing 12v when I tested across the hanger and tank water after I got shocked.

alton · 08/08/2018, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquavaj

Why is a gfci required with a ground probe? Also, are inline gfci ok or the outlet type is better suited?

GFCI receptacles require 4 to 6 milli-amps to operate. The grounding probe provides the grounding path, versus your body. Many times we are wearing shoes, standing on carpet, or our thick skin which provides some resistance and therefore may not get to 6 milli-amps, but maybe only 3 which is still a pretty good jolt but will not trip the gfci. Before using a grounding probe you will need to make sure your wiring is up to date and your receptacles are grounded with a ground wire. I have gone to a friends home where someone changed all the receptacles to 3 wire grounding, even thought there was no grounding wire. His stealth heaters provided plenty of punch of current because his grounding probe was worthless. And last but not least Voltage Has No Power, it is the current that is shocking you so change the name to stray current. The best way to describe this is a water pump is voltage, and current is the water. You can have all the voltage in the world, but without current it is worthless. AC pumps spinning in water create stray voltage, so do open lamps to water, but without current it is worthless and not harmful to humans. I have tested a system with only two volts, but the current was over the top and the shock was painful.
In this case like many others, the light fixture / support wires just provided a great grounding path to complete the circuit.

der_wille_zur_macht · 08/08/2018, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquavaj

T5/MH fixture. There's 2 brackets that slide on and hung by plastic shielded metal wires. Light fixture casing looks to be powdered coated as well as the brackets but not really sure how thick the powder coating is. All plugs are 3 prong.

I'm going to do some more testing tonight with a volt meter. I was showing 12v when I tested across the hanger and tank water after I got shocked.

You completed a circuit between the metal in the lamp enclosure and the ground. If the enclosure had been grounded (vs isolated by wood) you would not have been shocked, but the GFCI the lights are plugged in to would have tripped.

This is a classic example of why metal enclosures are supposed to be grounded - so when there's a fault with the equipment inside them, current flows to ground instead of potentially flowing through a grounded human who happens to touch the enclosure. You aren't getting shocked when the carpet is dry because there's no path to ground then. Measuring voltage between the tank water and the light enclosure is essentially meaningless, by the way.

In summary: your lights are faulty. And not properly grounded. And they should be on GFCI if they aren't.

mcgyvr · 08/08/2018, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

In summary: your lights are faulty. And not properly grounded. And they should be on GFCI if they aren't.

Thats an assumption that I wouldn't make just yet..
The carpet could have been the higher potential and the light the ground..

der_wille_zur_macht · 08/08/2018, 02:31 PM

Okay, fine. Check the wiring in your carpet for any damage or frayed insulation. If you find nothing wrong, THEN check the light fixture.

Floowid · 08/08/2018, 04:57 PM

I usually only lurk around here anymore, but this made me physically laugh out loud. Thank you for that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

Okay, fine. Check the wiring in your carpet for any damage or frayed insulation. If you find nothing wrong, THEN check the light fixture.

mcgyvr · 08/09/2018, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

Okay, fine. Check the wiring in your carpet for any damage or frayed insulation. If you find nothing wrong, THEN check the light fixture.

It wasn't clear if the ato failure was exposing the carpet to tank water at the time they were standing on it..
I envision them having ato water poured on them and freaking out hitting the light and voila..
Could just be the ato pump is the faulty equipment..

The 12V potential measured between light and tank is probably just radiated from either the bulbs or pumps or whatever and not indicative of a fault..

A simple check from light enclosure to outlet ground will confirm any potential fault there..

2_zoa · 08/09/2018, 12:54 PM

The interesting parts of this for me are the reference to a spark plug and the mechanics of what’s going on.

Referring to a spark plug, makes me think it was the ballast leads that did the shocking and not the 120 feeding the fixture? I’m fortunate enough to have been hit by those three sources. 120 feels very different, much slower and a deeper feeling.

The other part, is. Standing on carpet means a wood or concrete substrate Which, last time I checked doesn’t conduct electricity. So with it being wet.....where is that connecting to ground allowing the current to flow? They stated they can touch the fixture on dry carpet no problem.

alton · 08/09/2018, 02:37 PM

It is amazing how many emails or post I have answered that started with my "Light is Shocking Me", when after investigation the light was only providing a grounding point of the circuit. And in this case where the sump had run over and now the carpet was wet, the current in the tank had the potential to make its way to the wet carpet with the padding still proving insulation. When the member touched the light it provided the ground he needed to get shocked. No different than if their hand was in the tank or sump when they touched the light. Hopefully we can get an update?

08/06/2018, 10:29 AM	#1
Aquavaj Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 132	Stray voltage? Got zapped pretty good last night when I was standing on damp carpet (made a ATO booboo) and brushed against the metal light hangers. Felt like touching the spark plug on a running lawn mower. Doesn't happen if I stand on dry carpet. The hangers are screwed onto the wooden backboard of the stand so I don't know how electricity is flowing into them. If I use a volt meter and test it across the hanger and tank water I get 12v AC. Things in the tank that are on AC is the return pump, heater and skimmer pump.

08/06/2018, 11:59 AM	#2
nereefpat Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Central Nebraska Posts: 3,190	Heater is the most likely culprit, but it could be anything. Unplug each one while testing to see which device to replace. GFCIs are a great invention, by the way. __________________ Pat Current Tank Info: 125 in-wall , 40b sump. 6 bulb T5. ASM G2 skimmer. LPS and leathers

08/06/2018, 12:30 PM	#3
saveafish Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: indiana Posts: 873	Pumps or heater. It might be a shocking experience but you can pull one out at a time and see if you get zapped. __________________ If it was'nt for the sea I could not see or sing ( Jimmy Buffet ) I like to glue animals to rocks and put disturbing amounts of electricity and saltwater next to each other Reefing is'nt how long you been in it. It is how deep you get in it. Current Tank Info: 400g display build, 300g sump, 75g ATO, 75g refug and a few more. Close to a 1000g. 200g mixing station.

08/07/2018, 10:31 AM	#7
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	Note: Do NOT use a ground probe without a GFCI.. And make sure that all submerged line powered equipment is on that GFCI.. With many devices being DC now the need for GFCI isn't what it was before.. There is no need to put DC powerheads or return pumps on GFCI.. Only direct line powered (120VAC/220VAC) devices need to be on the GFCI.. But it doesn't hurt to put them all on it.. Just not needed.. __________________ Who me?

08/07/2018, 01:24 PM	#8
hkgar Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Dewitt MI Posts: 5,051	There is no reason to have stray voltage in your tank. Something is leaking voltage and you need to determine what it is and replace it. I test periodically with a volt meter just to be sure. __________________ Gary 180 gallon, 40 gallon sump, 3 250 W MH + 4 80W ATI T5's, MTC MVX 36 Skimmer, Apex controller Aquamaxx T-3 CaRx Current Tank Info: A 2 Barred Rabbitfish, Red Head Salon, Yellow/Purple, McMaster Fairy, Possum, 2 Leopard Wrasses, Kole, & Atlantic Blue Tangs, 2 Percula Clown, 3 PJ and 1 Banggai Cardinalfish , Swallowtail, Bellus and Coral Beauty Angels

08/07/2018, 03:44 PM	#12
Aquavaj Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 132	T5/MH fixture. There's 2 brackets that slide on and hung by plastic shielded metal wires. Light fixture casing looks to be powdered coated as well as the brackets but not really sure how thick the powder coating is. All plugs are 3 prong. I'm going to do some more testing tonight with a volt meter. I was showing 12v when I tested across the hanger and tank water after I got shocked.

08/08/2018, 02:31 PM	#16
der_wille_zur_macht Team RC Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NY Posts: 17,749	Okay, fine. Check the wiring in your carpet for any damage or frayed insulation. If you find nothing wrong, THEN check the light fixture. __________________ Inconveniencing marine life since 1992 "It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)

08/09/2018, 12:54 PM	#19
2_zoa Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,840	The interesting parts of this for me are the reference to a spark plug and the mechanics of what’s going on. Referring to a spark plug, makes me think it was the ballast leads that did the shocking and not the 120 feeding the fixture? I’m fortunate enough to have been hit by those three sources. 120 feels very different, much slower and a deeper feeling. The other part, is. Standing on carpet means a wood or concrete substrate Which, last time I checked doesn’t conduct electricity. So with it being wet.....where is that connecting to ground allowing the current to flow? They stated they can touch the fixture on dry carpet no problem.

08/09/2018, 02:37 PM	#20
alton Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Zuehl, Texas Posts: 4,460	It is amazing how many emails or post I have answered that started with my "Light is Shocking Me", when after investigation the light was only providing a grounding point of the circuit. And in this case where the sump had run over and now the carpet was wet, the current in the tank had the potential to make its way to the wet carpet with the padding still proving insulation. When the member touched the light it provided the ground he needed to get shocked. No different than if their hand was in the tank or sump when they touched the light. Hopefully we can get an update?