Bleach vs Acid - Page 2

Randy Holmes-Farley · 03/27/2009, 04:49 AM

what I want to know is what is the treatment after the rock has soaked in acid ot get it ready for the tank

Just some fresh and/or salt water rinses is all it takes to remove any excess acid.

therealfatman · 03/27/2009, 08:21 AM

Or add a teaspoon or two of draino drain cleaning crystals to your bucket to neutralize the acid in your water and rinse. It takes a lot of 7.0 pH water to neutrlize a lot of acid (very low pH near pH zero) in water. Does not take much pH 14 water to netralize acid in water. Water is cheap though, but it will take a lot more plain water as you are trying to rinse away versus neutralize. A combination of both is much easier.

wrightnow · 03/27/2009, 09:16 AM

Thanks guys for the help...

So is there any test that I could do to verify that all the acid has been neutralize?

Rightnow the rock has been soaking (cycling) for about a month and has gone thru a complete cycle. I was hoping to start puttng the rock back into the tanks this weekend.

So far I'm very happy with the results from the acid soak, the rock appears to be very clean (pest free) I guess only time will tell

Thanks again for all the input

Randy Holmes-Farley · 03/27/2009, 11:34 AM

pH measurement is all it takes.

wrightnow · 03/27/2009, 12:04 PM

Thanks Randy, I just tested the water and it's reading 7.59 so with me luck this weekend putting the rock iback into my tank

Randy Holmes-Farley · 03/27/2009, 12:50 PM

Sounds good.

Good luck.

Hammsreefbeer · 03/28/2009, 12:42 AM

Im going to bleach my rock in the morning.would it be better to boil it or bleach it?my aiptasia/bubble algea outbrake is calling for one of these treatments
how long do i boil the rock?im going to use a turkey deep frier,so ill be out side.plus people say it smells like boiling crab leg.....I LOVE COOKING CRAB,THE BEST.who does'nt like crab legs.
Anyway,how long do i let them dry out and when do i put then back in the DT?Do i need to do a cycle?
Now if i bleach it how long do i let it soak?how long is the dry time?cycle?when can it go back in the tank?
Thanx guys/gals,ive done alot of reading to get rid of my issues and at this point i want to start over as far as the LR is concerned.
No big deal,now i can stop being lazy and clean some things up and frag all my softy for future sales..

Randy Holmes-Farley · 03/28/2009, 07:19 AM

Bleaching will remove the dead organisms, boiling will not. Boiling will not have any concerns about residual bleach. So there is a trade off, but I'd pick bleach, myself.

Hammsreefbeer · 03/28/2009, 09:19 AM

thank you randy.
how long do i soak it in bleach?whats the dry time?and do i need to cycle it after it dried out?
ive looked for a thread about doing this treatment but have not luck.i dont want to mess this up,the rock is about 4 years old(in my tank).
thank you for your help

Randy Holmes-Farley · 03/28/2009, 09:35 AM

Timing will depend on how much organic crud is on it, but overnight in 10% bleach may be adequate.

If all the organics are off, it will be like dead base rock in terms of cycling.

Drying is slow, but can be accelerated by rinsing and/or dechlorination treatment.

Hammsreefbeer · 03/28/2009, 09:47 AM

how will i be able to tell drying is done and its time to cook the rock?
thanx randy

Randy Holmes-Farley · 03/28/2009, 09:51 AM

How do you plan to "cook" it? You may be able to replace that step with an acid bath.

Hammsreefbeer · 03/28/2009, 10:02 AM

Randy,could you help me through the steps?ive never had to do this before and dont want to mess up.all im trying to do is kill a aiptasia out brake and minor bubble algae.the aiptasia's are bad.

so ive done EVERYTHING to try and rid these pest with on luck.my pepperment s are looking at me now laughing,i even think one is sitting on one...lol.the tank is not going anywhere so i want to just clean the rock of all pest and start over.new aquascape,new clean rock etc.,etc..
thank you randy for all your help

Hammsreefbeer · 03/28/2009, 10:32 AM

i was just going to throw some krill chuncks and re-seed it with new rock.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 03/29/2009, 07:22 AM

I don't really have a detailed recipe/plan for this, but a number of folks have used it.

If you are convinced you want to kill everything on it, I'd first soak it in 10% bleach/90% tap water (or RO/DI) overnight. The rock will probably look clean, but if it has apparent organic crud on it, I'd brush it off and then I'd repeat with fresh bleach.

Then rinse well in tap or RO/DI and we'll get to acid rinsing if you want to try that.

Hammsreefbeer · 03/29/2009, 10:06 AM

do you think using acid would be better,going to do it this morning.didnt have time yesterday.or are you talking about rinsing it with acid?
thanks randy

Randy Holmes-Farley · 03/29/2009, 10:34 AM

No acid in the bleach (that's dangerous). The acid is a separate step to remove any phosphate deposits on the live rock by dissolving away the outer layer of the rock.

Hammsreefbeer · 03/29/2009, 10:50 AM

no,no..im not mixing.i use acid at work to cut the grout haze.for me soaking my LR because of aiptasia outbrake do i need to acid soak or do you think bleaching it would work fine?

Randy Holmes-Farley · 03/29/2009, 11:25 AM

Bleaching will kill all of the aiptasia.

Hammsreefbeer · 03/29/2009, 11:39 AM

im starting to take all the LR out now,do you think it would be easier to soak in acid then bleach?besides smell how will i know all the bleach is off the bleach after treatment?
after soaking in bleach,you mentioned rinsing with acid,what does that accomplish?
sorry about the crazy questions,i just want to get this right

bheron · 03/30/2009, 08:50 AM

hi all, wanted to give an update at least a week after I soaked my LOR in bleach.

- I soaked about 150lbs in 30 gallons of water and 3 gallons of clorox bleach (10:1 ratio).

- It seemed like after a few days it lost its power. this was confirmed by the experts in the above posts. So I decided to run it through the process one more time.

- So last night (over a week after first starting) I took all the LR out and emptied the tub. I was surprised to find the water was very murky/dirty and a ton of residue at the bottom. I think this was sand-like material. But the water was defintiely dirty.

- As I examined the rock some of it looked very white, some had pinkish dots on it. and then others still brownish. This surprised me too. I expected to see all white rock. It seemed like the LR on the bottom of the tub didn't get as clean as the LR at the top.

Anyway, last night I emptied it all out, filled it up with fresh RODI and 3 more gallons of bleach. I'm expecting to see a difference when I check it tonight.

Oh, and if I can find some muriatic acid, I think I'll run it thought that one time as well.

Hammsreefbeer · 03/30/2009, 02:22 PM

i also soaked my LR for about 20hrs now,it nice and clean.
my qustion is how long do i soak it in acid and do i need to dechlorinate first before acid?
i am going to run freash bleach 1 more time,just thinking ahead

Hammsreefbeer · 03/30/2009, 02:26 PM

bryan,you can get acid at lowes/home depot in gardening where the pool stuff is....how that helps

bheron · 03/30/2009, 03:47 PM

doug - you sometimes can. i used to but cant find it anymore. i just went to my local swimming pool suppply store and found it there. it used to be called muriatic acid but i think its correctly called hydrochloric acid. they had it stored in the back b/c its pretty dangerous to handle.

i'm going to dose it in the next day or so. figure a 1:10 ratio with water? let it go for 24 hours?

Hammsreefbeer · 03/30/2009, 04:24 PM

do you still need to decholinate the rock,or will the acid do that too?

03/27/2009, 04:49 AM	#26
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	what I want to know is what is the treatment after the rock has soaked in acid ot get it ready for the tank Just some fresh and/or salt water rinses is all it takes to remove any excess acid. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

03/27/2009, 11:34 AM	#29
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	pH measurement is all it takes. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

03/27/2009, 12:50 PM	#31
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Sounds good. Good luck. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

03/28/2009, 12:42 AM	#32
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	Im going to bleach my rock in the morning.would it be better to boil it or bleach it?my aiptasia/bubble algea outbrake is calling for one of these treatments how long do i boil the rock?im going to use a turkey deep frier,so ill be out side.plus people say it smells like boiling crab leg.....I LOVE COOKING CRAB,THE BEST.who does'nt like crab legs. Anyway,how long do i let them dry out and when do i put then back in the DT?Do i need to do a cycle? Now if i bleach it how long do i let it soak?how long is the dry time?cycle?when can it go back in the tank? Thanx guys/gals,ive done alot of reading to get rid of my issues and at this point i want to start over as far as the LR is concerned. No big deal,now i can stop being lazy and clean some things up and frag all my softy for future sales.. __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

03/28/2009, 07:19 AM	#33
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Bleaching will remove the dead organisms, boiling will not. Boiling will not have any concerns about residual bleach. So there is a trade off, but I'd pick bleach, myself. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

03/27/2009, 08:21 AM	#27
therealfatman Moved On Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 1,471	Or add a teaspoon or two of draino drain cleaning crystals to your bucket to neutralize the acid in your water and rinse. It takes a lot of 7.0 pH water to neutrlize a lot of acid (very low pH near pH zero) in water. Does not take much pH 14 water to netralize acid in water. Water is cheap though, but it will take a lot more plain water as you are trying to rinse away versus neutralize. A combination of both is much easier.

03/27/2009, 09:16 AM	#28
wrightnow Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: long beach, Ca Posts: 495	Thanks guys for the help... So is there any test that I could do to verify that all the acid has been neutralize? Rightnow the rock has been soaking (cycling) for about a month and has gone thru a complete cycle. I was hoping to start puttng the rock back into the tanks this weekend. So far I'm very happy with the results from the acid soak, the rock appears to be very clean (pest free) I guess only time will tell Thanks again for all the input

03/27/2009, 12:04 PM	#30
wrightnow Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: long beach, Ca Posts: 495	Thanks Randy, I just tested the water and it's reading 7.59 so with me luck this weekend putting the rock iback into my tank

03/28/2009, 09:19 AM	#34
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	thank you randy. how long do i soak it in bleach?whats the dry time?and do i need to cycle it after it dried out? ive looked for a thread about doing this treatment but have not luck.i dont want to mess this up,the rock is about 4 years old(in my tank). thank you for your help __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

03/28/2009, 09:35 AM	#35
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Timing will depend on how much organic crud is on it, but overnight in 10% bleach may be adequate. If all the organics are off, it will be like dead base rock in terms of cycling. Drying is slow, but can be accelerated by rinsing and/or dechlorination treatment. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

03/28/2009, 09:47 AM	#36
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	how will i be able to tell drying is done and its time to cook the rock? thanx randy __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

03/28/2009, 09:51 AM	#37
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	How do you plan to "cook" it? You may be able to replace that step with an acid bath. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

03/28/2009, 10:02 AM	#38
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	Randy,could you help me through the steps?ive never had to do this before and dont want to mess up.all im trying to do is kill a aiptasia out brake and minor bubble algae.the aiptasia's are bad. so ive done EVERYTHING to try and rid these pest with on luck.my pepperment s are looking at me now laughing,i even think one is sitting on one...lol.the tank is not going anywhere so i want to just clean the rock of all pest and start over.new aquascape,new clean rock etc.,etc.. thank you randy for all your help __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

03/28/2009, 10:32 AM	#39
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	i was just going to throw some krill chuncks and re-seed it with new rock. __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

03/29/2009, 07:22 AM	#40
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	I don't really have a detailed recipe/plan for this, but a number of folks have used it. If you are convinced you want to kill everything on it, I'd first soak it in 10% bleach/90% tap water (or RO/DI) overnight. The rock will probably look clean, but if it has apparent organic crud on it, I'd brush it off and then I'd repeat with fresh bleach. Then rinse well in tap or RO/DI and we'll get to acid rinsing if you want to try that. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

03/29/2009, 10:06 AM	#41
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	do you think using acid would be better,going to do it this morning.didnt have time yesterday.or are you talking about rinsing it with acid? thanks randy __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

03/29/2009, 10:34 AM	#42
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	No acid in the bleach (that's dangerous). The acid is a separate step to remove any phosphate deposits on the live rock by dissolving away the outer layer of the rock. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

03/29/2009, 10:50 AM	#43
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	no,no..im not mixing.i use acid at work to cut the grout haze.for me soaking my LR because of aiptasia outbrake do i need to acid soak or do you think bleaching it would work fine? __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

03/29/2009, 11:25 AM	#44
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Bleaching will kill all of the aiptasia. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

03/29/2009, 11:39 AM	#45
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	im starting to take all the LR out now,do you think it would be easier to soak in acid then bleach?besides smell how will i know all the bleach is off the bleach after treatment? after soaking in bleach,you mentioned rinsing with acid,what does that accomplish? sorry about the crazy questions,i just want to get this right __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

03/30/2009, 08:50 AM	#46
bheron Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Valley Forge, PA Posts: 2,655	hi all, wanted to give an update at least a week after I soaked my LOR in bleach. - I soaked about 150lbs in 30 gallons of water and 3 gallons of clorox bleach (10:1 ratio). - It seemed like after a few days it lost its power. this was confirmed by the experts in the above posts. So I decided to run it through the process one more time. - So last night (over a week after first starting) I took all the LR out and emptied the tub. I was surprised to find the water was very murky/dirty and a ton of residue at the bottom. I think this was sand-like material. But the water was defintiely dirty. - As I examined the rock some of it looked very white, some had pinkish dots on it. and then others still brownish. This surprised me too. I expected to see all white rock. It seemed like the LR on the bottom of the tub didn't get as clean as the LR at the top. Anyway, last night I emptied it all out, filled it up with fresh RODI and 3 more gallons of bleach. I'm expecting to see a difference when I check it tonight. Oh, and if I can find some muriatic acid, I think I'll run it thought that one time as well. __________________ Bryan Current Tank Info: 220 since Nov 2005

03/30/2009, 02:22 PM	#47
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	i also soaked my LR for about 20hrs now,it nice and clean. my qustion is how long do i soak it in acid and do i need to dechlorinate first before acid? i am going to run freash bleach 1 more time,just thinking ahead __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

03/30/2009, 02:26 PM	#48
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	bryan,you can get acid at lowes/home depot in gardening where the pool stuff is....how that helps __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

03/30/2009, 03:47 PM	#49
bheron Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Valley Forge, PA Posts: 2,655	doug - you sometimes can. i used to but cant find it anymore. i just went to my local swimming pool suppply store and found it there. it used to be called muriatic acid but i think its correctly called hydrochloric acid. they had it stored in the back b/c its pretty dangerous to handle. i'm going to dose it in the next day or so. figure a 1:10 ratio with water? let it go for 24 hours? __________________ Bryan Current Tank Info: 220 since Nov 2005

03/30/2009, 04:24 PM	#50
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	do you still need to decholinate the rock,or will the acid do that too? __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.