New sump Design, Please Comment before build

Amartin86 · 11/27/2009, 12:49 PM

I am designing a sump for my 75 gallon saltwater tank
Any comments on design would be much appreciated, this is my first sump design.

uncleof6 · 11/27/2009, 01:15 PM

You are trying to do too much in a tank that is too small. Evaporation in the return section, will not allow a constant water level for your skimmer, and your sand bed will be too small to be of practical value. Your water levels are too high to allow for power out drain down.

Jim

Amartin86 · 11/27/2009, 01:28 PM

Can you Recommend a better design, I know I want to have part be a refugium

rbnice1 · 11/27/2009, 01:39 PM

Have your protein skimmer in the same section as your return. Then have that drain into a small fug area with macro, then that goes into your small return section.

KMP · 11/27/2009, 01:42 PM

water level is critical as mentioned. you need to figure out how much water will drain from the main tank into the sump if the power goes out. a miscalculation here results in water all over the floor.

rbnice1 · 11/27/2009, 01:46 PM

Just a quick example.....

2 things to also keep in mind.

1. Make sure you have plenty of room for your skimmer. Keep enough room for any possible future upgrade.

2. Water should drop no more then 1/4 inch into the return chamber or you will get micro bubbles.

uncleof6 · 11/27/2009, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbnice1

Have your protein skimmer in the same section as your return. Then have that drain into a small fug area with macro, then that goes into your small return section.

This will not allow a constant water level for the skimmer as evaporation will cause the water level to rise and fall. The evaporation shows up in the return section, the "lowest" level in the system, as baffles control the water height everywhere else.

Jim

uncleof6 · 11/27/2009, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbnice1

Just a quick example.....

2 things to also keep in mind.

1. Make sure you have plenty of room for your skimmer. Keep enough room for any possible future upgrade.

Yes and no. You should buy a skimmer that is properly sized for the system, based on flow rate through the skimmer, the first time, and upgrades become necessary. For the most efficient use of space, the skimmer section only needs to be large enough to accommodate the properly sized skimmer. Even if you have to pay more initially for the skimmer, this saves money in the long run. Why buy twice, what you only need to buy once.

Quote:

2. Water should drop no more then 1/4 inch into the return chamber or you will get micro bubbles.

This is a function of the width of the baffles. I flow roughly 2800 gph through sumps, with 1" drop from skimmer section, and often 4" drop from a "fuge" section (far less flow rate though), into the return section, without bubble problems, or appreciable noise. Again, size matters when it comes to flow rates.

Regards,

Jim

uncleof6 · 11/27/2009, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amartin86

Can you Recommend a better design, I know I want to have part be a refugium

This is a fairly large sump, so is illustrative, rather than specific to your system. It scales down, to a point, but you run out of room in small sumps rather quickly. Especially if using large skimmers, that are not always necessary.

Jim

jimmyj7090 · 11/27/2009, 03:25 PM

Just to add to the other feedback;

In the pic in the original post it shows a DSB section. That DSB section appears to have drain holes down low. This will not work at all, you would be pouring sand into the next chamber and circulating water throught the DSB section, making it a simple sand filter (which would serve little if any benifit, AND would make a big mess).

I would suggest leaving the sand out of the sump entirely. Like Jim said, you don't have enough room for it in there (and it will only cause trouble).

Also as Jim said, the skimmer will need a constant level, so you don't want it in the same section as the return, the skimmer should be before the return in a section that keeps a constant level.

rbnice1 · 11/27/2009, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncleof6

This will not allow a constant water level for the skimmer as evaporation will cause the water level to rise and fall. The evaporation shows up in the return section, the "lowest" level in the system, as baffles control the water height everywhere else.

Jim

Sorry meant the drain section as per my drawing.

Jim is correct that your skimmer section must stay at a constant lvl.

rbnice1 · 11/27/2009, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncleof6

Yes and no. You should buy a skimmer that is properly sized for the system, based on flow rate through the skimmer, the first time, and upgrades become necessary. For the most efficient use of space, the skimmer section only needs to be large enough to accommodate the properly sized skimmer. Even if you have to pay more initially for the skimmer, this saves money in the long run. Why buy twice, what you only need to buy once.

This is a function of the width of the baffles. I flow roughly 2800 gph through sumps, with 1" drop from skimmer section, and often 4" drop from a "fuge" section (far less flow rate though), into the return section, without bubble problems, or appreciable noise. Again, size matters when it comes to flow rates.

Regards,

Jim

In theory your correct. However many many people dont buy the best skimmer and therefore have to upgrade later. So designing your sump with any future upgrades that you may want to do is not a bad idea.

As far width of baffles.... That has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I am not talking about micro bubbles from the drain or skimmer. I am talking about bubbles you can get when the water drops over that last baffle and falls into the return section.

My return is only about 800gph and the return section is 8 inches deep and if my water drops more then about .5 inches the pump will suck those small air bubbles in before they can surface.

Again just something to think about.

jb61264 · 11/27/2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncleof6

This is a fairly large sump, so is illustrative, rather than specific to your system. It scales down, to a point, but you run out of room in small sumps rather quickly. Especially if using large skimmers, that are not always necessary.

Jim

I highl recommend this design as it allows for alot of flexibility. I have this same design with chaeto macroalgae in the "fuge" section...I also have "T's" on the split from the return so I could add reactors if needed in the future (phosban/carbon/etc)

uncleof6 · 11/27/2009, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbnice1

In theory your correct. However many many people dont buy the best skimmer and therefore have to upgrade later. So designing your sump with any future upgrades that you may want to do is not a bad idea.

As far width of baffles.... That has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I am not talking about micro bubbles from the drain or skimmer. I am talking about bubbles you can get when the water drops over that last baffle and falls into the return section.

My return is only about 800gph and the return section is 8 inches deep and if my water drops more then about .5 inches the pump will suck those small air bubbles in before they can surface.

Again just something to think about.

OK then how about this-- a semantics change: The length of the last baffle.

Jim

jimmyj7090 · 11/27/2009, 06:36 PM

Or in other words, not placing the waterfall next to the return chamber

11/27/2009, 01:15 PM	#2
uncleof6 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: AWOL Posts: 12,013	You are trying to do too much in a tank that is too small. Evaporation in the return section, will not allow a constant water level for your skimmer, and your sand bed will be too small to be of practical value. Your water levels are too high to allow for power out drain down. Jim __________________ "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." (oft attributed to Einstein; most likely paraphrasing by Roger Sessions; compactly articulates the principle of Occam's Razor) Current Tank Info: 325 6' wide Reef

11/27/2009, 01:42 PM	#5
KMP Wag More; Bark Less Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: NorCal Posts: 3,602	water level is critical as mentioned. you need to figure out how much water will drain from the main tank into the sump if the power goes out. a miscalculation here results in water all over the floor. __________________ Kenny Current Tank Info: 70g Shallow Reef [Home]; 15g Starfire Cube [Office]

11/27/2009, 03:25 PM	#10
jimmyj7090 aka John K Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Sudbury Posts: 2,367	Just to add to the other feedback; In the pic in the original post it shows a DSB section. That DSB section appears to have drain holes down low. This will not work at all, you would be pouring sand into the next chamber and circulating water throught the DSB section, making it a simple sand filter (which would serve little if any benifit, AND would make a big mess). I would suggest leaving the sand out of the sump entirely. Like Jim said, you don't have enough room for it in there (and it will only cause trouble). Also as Jim said, the skimmer will need a constant level, so you don't want it in the same section as the return, the skimmer should be before the return in a section that keeps a constant level. __________________ my reef ate my wallet Current Tank Info: 57G, RBTA's Zoa's and softies

11/27/2009, 06:36 PM	#15
jimmyj7090 aka John K Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Sudbury Posts: 2,367	Or in other words, not placing the waterfall next to the return chamber __________________ my reef ate my wallet Current Tank Info: 57G, RBTA's Zoa's and softies

11/27/2009, 01:28 PM	#3
Amartin86 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Indianapolis, In Posts: 4	Can you Recommend a better design, I know I want to have part be a refugium

11/27/2009, 01:39 PM	#4
rbnice1 Moved On Join Date: May 2008 Location: Cedar Hill Posts: 3,905	Have your protein skimmer in the same section as your return. Then have that drain into a small fug area with macro, then that goes into your small return section.

11/27/2009, 01:46 PM	#6
rbnice1 Moved On Join Date: May 2008 Location: Cedar Hill Posts: 3,905	Just a quick example..... 2 things to also keep in mind. 1. Make sure you have plenty of room for your skimmer. Keep enough room for any possible future upgrade. 2. Water should drop no more then 1/4 inch into the return chamber or you will get micro bubbles.