My Feather Star Crinoid

[dkbush]

This is Daisy, my Feather Crinoid. She is 3 months in my 220g tank tomorrow. I was a newbie when I purchased her. I had a couple serpant stars and a brittle and when I saw her, I asked if she was one also. The LFS told me she was a feather star and "very hardy." I thought she was beautiful. The LFS had her 2 weeks. The showed me how they were target feeding her coral food. I watched and saw no reaction but thought nothing of it as I didn't know how she ate. They told me to target feed her once a day. When they removed her I noticed a leg fell off. I was told that's normal, "they are delicate to handle."
So now I had her home in my tank. She went straight to the top rock and perched there. The first time I target fed her I noticed immediately she was spitting it right back off her body. She didn't look good, missing legs and several very short ones. I didn't think she was eating what I was trying to feed her at all. So I started researching and as you've probably guessed saw what a difficult creature, nearly impossible one she is to keep alive. I called the LFS who told me not to believe everything I read, how they had kept her alive for 2 weeks, yada yada. They would take her back if I wanted. So I researched more. Tried other foods like Doc's Brew etc. Went to a different LFS and got phytofeast but was told I had "0% chance of keeping her alive." I decided to keep trying, after all, she would just end up dying in someone else's tank. I kept researching and after 2 weeks in my tank and trying various foods to no avail iIread about Marine Snow. My LFS didn't carry it so I ordered a bottle. I began feeding 10 cap fills a night. After a few nights I started noticing a response. She was showing movement and hadn't at all for 2 weeks. So I continued with the snow. It wasn't long before I noticed a big difference in her. So I ordered a case of snow and continued. Her brown color after several weeks looked richer. Her legs seemed to be growing back. Yes, I was trashing my tank but she was doing so well. Eventually my nitrates started climbing (after a month or so). I cut back slowly on the snow. I have had her 3 months tomorrow, my nitrates are almost zero. I feed her 4 caps of snow a night, sometimes 5 when I'm trying to get my nitrates up a tad. She also seems to enjoy the frozen cyclopes I feed every morning to my tank and fish. She can be all curled up and as soon as I put in snow (I turn my apex on feed cycle for 20 min), she immediately opens up. Needless to say, my LFS now carries snow. I truly believe the LFS was slowly killing her and had I kept target feeding her coral food she would be dead by now.
I realize it's only been 3months. However I wanted to tell my feather story to help any others who were naively suckered like me to buy one. I paid $80 for her. Fortunately she still seems well fed at 4 or 5 caps of snow a day as that was a big expense. She is doing well so far. Her home is still at the top rock in high flow. She is out all the time, but curls up to rest or sleep I assume when not feeding.
I hope this post helps anyone with a feather crinoid.

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[Genera]

Nice! I've heard that crinoids are extremely difficult and you are having what seems to be success!

[Calappidae]

Originally Posted by Genera

Nice! I've heard that crinoids are nearly Impossible and you are having what seems to be success!

ftfy

But yeah, love to see these success stories! 3 months is not too shabby actually. I forget what the longest on record is, but it'd be cool to see this guy go all the way!

[rssjsb]

Yes, kudos for your persistence. I hope it stays healthy for a long time.

[Ron Reefman]

Great to hear about, although 3 months is a fairly short term, it is still alive. And given you are a newbie and with a newer tank set up your results have been far above what I would have expected. Best of luck and keep us posted as time goes by.

[cincyjim]

Absolutely beautiful! I'm glad you have are having positive results and I hope you continue to do so.
Jim

[dkbush]

Thanks everyone. I will definately periodically post updates.

[Shawn O]

Very cool creatures. Glad you're having success with it. When I first got interested in fish tanks I wanted one of these critters until I found out how hard they are to keep. SO.....when you getting a basket star? jk.

[dkbush]

It's now almost 7 months and Daisy, my feather star is still doing awesome! Because I already feed marine snow to my tank every night, I now added just a few days ago a red feather crinoid and black and white one. I uploaded a picture taken today of Daisy and my new white and black crinoid, Frosty. Cant get a good photo of Rusty, my new red crinoid as he is curled up under the return pumphead. I will keep updating periodically.

[GriffinMarsh]

If you have success with frosty and rusty with marine snow, I know what Im going to start feeding to get a crinoid! Congrats!

[Calappidae]

Originally Posted by dkbush

It's now almost 7 months and Daisy, my feather star is still doing awesome! Because I already feed marine snow to my tank every night, I now added just a few days ago a red feather crinoid and black and white one. I uploaded a picture taken today of Daisy and my new white and black crinoid, Frosty. Cant get a good photo of Rusty, my new red crinoid as he is curled up under the return pumphead. I will keep updating periodically.

That is legendary. Off the top of my head the longest is 8 months, but I'm probably wrong.. this is an outstanding achievement!

Originally Posted by GriffinMarsh

If you have success with frosty and rusty with marine snow, I know what Im going to start feeding to get a crinoid! Congrats!

Keep in mind it could be total luck, Crinoids can be very picky with the size particle of their food. Marine snow may be working for this crinoid because it's the right size, but for others it may not work out as perfectly.

I would like to remind people that what this guy/gal is doing, like 3 or more total people in the world managed to do, and she/he's succeeding.

dkbush, bychance has the crinoid grown at all since you had it? (I mean as in, the total size, not the leg regrowth, if it appears to be aging or full grown). I ask this incase it's changing size while you've had it and still accepting the same particle sized food. If it's full grown then it can be noted as a rule of thumb that adult crinoids like marine snow.

[GriffinMarsh]

Originally Posted by Calappidae

That is legendary.



Keep in mind it could be total luck, Crinoids can be very picky with the size particle of their food. Marine snow make be working for this crinoid because it's the right size, but for others it may not work out as perfectly.

I would like to remind people that what this guy is doing, like 3 or more total people in the world managed to do, and he's succeeding.

Remember there was a time when small polyp stonies seemed impossible to keep in home aquaria. And I only see this hobby moving towards a more scientific approach to fish husbandry and health. It only takes a couple people logging success to better the chances with these cryptic feeders. I hope that he has the same success with frosty and rusty as he did with daisy to help all captive crinoids live long and prosperous lives.

[Calappidae]

Or since something's live/death ratio in home aquariums is at 1/1,000,000 we could simply leave it alone and leave it to the people who stumble upon the specimens that end up being collected and brought in store anyway.

Not much has changed in the past 10 years that improve the health quality of diet based livestock. Crinoids are a diet issue, not a technological issue.. it's the same case for why twin spot gobies, fromia stars, horseshoe crabs, and sandsifting starfish don't make it in the hobby, and many have requested actual restrictions on their collection. Corals were tough originally due to lighting, but we were able to upgrade lighting easily.. food not so much. Just nutritional differences.

We've had a few people log in reports and success stories every once in a great while for some livestock that were deemed impossible, but when everybody else followed their exact footsteps the results were never even close. This is due to the luck factor of these animals.. twinspots, sandsifters, fromias, they don't have the necessary food requirement in home aquariums as it's invisible to the eye and relies on what you're lucky enough to get and grow off sand and rock. Horseshoes do require significantly larger tanks, but those tanks aren't going to always work at 1000 gallons if your sand lacks the proper food, which who's going to see in the bag?

We can upgrade lighting for coral (for several years now, the only difference is energy saving LEDs, which some put out enough PAR comparable to metal halide without the energy cost and heat.), but food isn't upgradable if it's only accepted in it's purest form.

It's like saying more people should try sponge eating nudibranchs until one guy finally gets it right, and later after a thousand more perished specimens, somebody else gets it. It's not worth it, I support success stories like these where it was unintentional, but it shouldn't be taken as a "give it a shot" oppertunity, but instead a warning and informational tale for if somebody else accidentally purchases a similar specimen without knowing.

[Whiterabbitrage]

Fantastic! Really exciting story

[GriffinMarsh]

Originally Posted by Calappidae

1. "Or since something's live/death ratio in home aquariums is at 1/1,000,000"

2 Not much has changed in the past 10 years that improve the health quality of diet based livestock. Crinoids are a diet issue, not a technological issue.. it's the same case for why twin spot gobies, fromia stars, horseshoe crabs, and sandsifting starfish don't make it in the hobby, and many have requested actual restrictions on their collection. Corals were tough originally due to lighting, but we were able to upgrade lighting easily.. food not so much. Just nutritional differences.

3 We've had a few people log in reports and success stories every once in a great while for some livestock that were deemed impossible, but when everybody else followed their exact footsteps the results were never even close. This is due to the luck factor of these animals.. twinspots, sandsifters, fromias, they don't have the necessary food requirement in home aquariums as it's invisible to the eye and relies on what you're lucky enough to get and grow off sand and rock. Horseshoes do require significantly larger tanks, but those tanks aren't going to always work at 1000 gallons if your sand lacks the proper food, which who's going to see in the bag?

4. We can upgrade lighting for coral (for several years now, the only difference is energy saving LEDs, which some put out enough PAR comparable to metal halide without the energy cost and heat.), but food isn't upgradable if it's only accepted in it's purest form.

5. It's like saying more people should try sponge eating nudibranchs until one guy finally gets it right, and later after a thousand more perished specimens, somebody else gets it. It's not worth it, I support success stories like these where it was unintentional, but it shouldn't be taken as a "give it a shot" oppertunity, but instead a warning and informational tale for if somebody else accidentally purchases a similar specimen without knowing.

1. Seems like a pretty bold statistic there. Even if CITES has allowed the importation of roughly 3,000,000 individual crinoids in the last 50 years ( based off the information you provided on the three people who had been successful; 42 years with CITES eight without) I doubt there has only been an overall success rate of .00003%. Even 1.9% if there has been only one person successful with a million imported crinoids over the last fifty years. Highly unlikely.

2. You also assumed that when I stated SPS corals, you believed that I was referring to technological advances, which I was and wasn't. I believe that light in a way is their food. I also stated that it is moving in a more scientific approach. The last time I checked science was observation of results through experimentation based off a hypothesis. Let me put up a list of organisms through genra that have most likely been affected by dietary advances in the last ten years due to these parameters: acropora, goniopora, montipora, fungia, dendronephthya, gorgonian et al, catalaphyllia, acanthastrea, hymenocera, and echinoidea et al to name a few.... And through the scientific process understanding diet, we are able to keep a lot of these species successful even when removing a natural diet. I have seen this personally with most of the organisms you mentioned above.

3. I assume you have research to back up this statement or again is it based off a small margin of personal experience?

4. It has been theorized that while LEDs are not only energy efficient, the light bending that is caused with Halides and LEDs make contact with water could actually penetrate deeper into the coral tissue aiding more with photosynthesis. If you would like a can post a link to this study.

5. I may disagree with sponge eating nudibranchs in a home for more reasons than diet, but sponge eating angelfish and butterflyfish became easier to maintain with food stock that was high in natural sea sponge. I'm sure you have seen or even used angelfish prepared foods yourself.

Im not trying to pick a fight or anything, or am I trying to claim I know more than anybody. I don't have a degree in any marine sciences but I love to read scientific articles from people who are. It is up to people who are really passionate about these types of marine organisms. Im all for informing people on my opinion on the matter and learning from their and others experience.

[Calappidae]

No fight, IMO I'm just under the perspective of "if it usually doesn't make it, why sacrifice so many until success?". Like I said, a lot of the currently claimed impossible species have been dependant on luck; (particle sized food and size, whether or not the biofilm is growing for fromias, the likely hood of finding the correct sponge species and finding it again) or ridiculous requirements that the adverage hobbiest does not usually supply (massive aquariums for a 2-3 foot horseshoe crab and for large sandsifting starfish). These are animals you would see 10-20 of in the LFS, what's the likely hood of atleast 10/20 of those customers having the footprint for such a large animal like horseshoe crab?

My statistics are not offical in any way and made up, as who is going door to door getting statistics for who has and hasn't kept the animals? (Including those who say theirs lived fine, when they only had them a month so far. Fromias take a few weeks to die of starvation.) If you have actual statisics, they would be from research institution or public aquariums, the key phrase we want is "adverage aquarist", which is something no statisic can really show except for tally as many reports as possible of success/fail ratio, which doing a simple search can currently show some pretty bad results.

Anyway, my personal perspective is; "If anything being collected contributes to reef damage (G. ternatensis) or is generally unsuccessful except by public aquariums (horseshoes, sandsifter stars), or luck(fromia, twin spot gobies), then they really should be best left in the wild. In the case the animal may be large in numbers, doesn't make it in aquariums, but makes excellant feeders (silversides, but idk one that's collected alive), then their purpose in the hobby isn't being a waste."

I don't know too much on the fish perspective, but the one species I most certainly reconize in your list is hymenocera, we did learn a lot about hymenocera over the years, however they were never deemed impossible since the introduction of CC stars in the hobby. They were less of a luck or difficult species, and more of an easy as long as you own a full wallet species. We learned new methods like rotation, we got some luck with a few breeders (none that have yet the settle and grow adults), however none of these things made them impossible to keep and a waste of life from the beginning when they were introduced. They were certainly discouraging as nobody really knew what they were in for, eventually they started to become an adverage hobbiest pet with very little failures to reach that status, they acclimated themselves into the hobby very smoothly.

[GriffinMarsh]

Joe, you and I are fighting the same battle when it comes to reef preservation. The problem occurs at the LFS/collection level. There are far too many inexperienced shop owners that think this is an easy money market, which when played their cards correct could be. I don't blame anybody for picking up an organism when the recommendation has come from a professional level as being "easy" or "hardy", but I'm glad to see someone took personal time to figure out what they had and decided to try multiple routes to gain some success. When that success has been documented, they can share it with someone else who was wrongfully sold an expert level organism. If the demand wasn't there, neither would the feather stars.

P.S I had a ternatensis for about a year and a half that was labeled as a scyllarus. He was probably another accident collection, but I tried everything to keep him happy in a closed environment. Unfortunately he found a way to crush himself with a rock.

[spit.fire]

heres some pics of the one i had (died in a tank crash after about 4 months...)


story behind this one was the lfs (one i worked at) ordered them on an account of stupidity.... (we always used scientific names when ordering, the order was put through by one of the guys who doesnt usually do the orders), he meant to order serpent stars, not feather stars and ordered close to 60 of them, all of them died but this one. We refused to sell them (against what the guy who ordered them wanted), if someone wanted to try one we would give them away because we knew they didnt do well

anyways, i took 4 home because they were dying off at a rapid rate in the store tanks and i figured id give it a shot as things generally did quite well in my system. after about a week 3 had died and the last one had no legs/feathers left and was just a small ball of parts. Amazingly, after about a month it fully recovered and was thriving in my system, i had it for about a 3 months after that until the day i crashed my tank losing all my sps and inverts (no lps or zoas died)

Pics are from about a week before i lost it

[Bongo Shrimp]

This is encouraging to see that this feather star appears to be eating a prepared food. Although since it can take about a year or a year and a half for them to die of starvation, any time less than that is not a good indicator of health. I kept several feather stars for 4 years (until a nitrate spike) and my friend kept the same species for about the same amount of time. It's really hit or miss as to whether they will eat what you provide them since some seem to be more specialized feeders than others. There are several other people on the NPS forum who have been keeping them successfully and the ones they have, IIRC, look just like yours.

Any LFS that suggests feather stars are anything other than very difficult to keep and are very sensitive has no idea what they are talking about. Always disappointed when I hear about LFSs promoting keeping these stars since overall they are incredibly difficult to keep. I have kept a different species than the ones I had for 4 years and I couldn't keep them alive for a period of time to be able to consider it a success.

[dkbush]

Originally Posted by GriffinMarsh

Joe, you and I are fighting the same battle when it comes to reef preservation. The problem occurs at the LFS/collection level. There are far too many inexperienced shop owners that think this is an easy money market, which when played their cards correct could be. I don't blame anybody for picking up an organism when the recommendation has come from a professional level as being "easy" or "hardy", but I'm glad to see someone took personal time to figure out what they had and decided to try multiple routes to gain some success. When that success has been documented, they can share it with someone else who was wrongfully sold an expert level organism. If the demand wasn't there, neither would the feather stars.

P.S I had a ternatensis for about a year and a half that was labeled as a scyllarus. He was probably another accident collection, but I tried everything to keep him happy in a closed environment. Unfortunately he found a way to crush himself with a rock.

I think you are spot on here. Daisy was my first lesson in the hobby, I learned after to always research before I buy. That was a newbie mistake. But once I had this beautiful animal that everyone was telling me I couldn't keep alive, what could I do but try to keep her alive. It's a catch 22. I see them at the local LFS store, I know most people that buy them are not going to take the chance of trashing their tank up with marine snow and so I want to save them or at least try. Case in point, this LFS told me they found a supplier where they can now get many crinoids (hence my two newest). I was at the store at the counter watching a guy buy a large beautiful basket star. As he was leaving, the manager told him of my crinoid and feeding snow. He shook his head and said nah, I will just stir up my sandbed once in a while. I believe that basket is doomed and it broke my heart to hear that.

I truly believe this species should be left in the wild but I cannot control that. When I see them at this particular store, my general fear is someone will buy, not knowing, and watch it die in their tank. That's why I bought my last two but obviously can't buy them all. I'd rather try to give them a chance in my tank with snow.

But again, I do not condone harvesting of this animal from the wild. I wish they were not.

[akmzero]

Update?

[titi59]

Originally Posted by akmzero

Update?

Yes please !

[dkbush]

Hey guys. Sorry it's taken me so long to update.

So first, Daisy and Frosty are both still alive and seemingly doing well. I have had Daisy a little over a year now and Frosty for six months. Below is a pic of Frosty I just took tonight. I can't get one of Daisy as she has been behind a rock the past few weeks.

Sadly I did lose Rusty. In fact, he started to deteriorate a couple weeks after I got him and just progressed from there. I think he may have lasted a total of two months in my tank.

I'm still feeding snow but have an ongoing battle with hair algae which I believe is due to all the marine snow going in my tank on a daily basis. I still dump in approx 7-10 cap fills every evening. So still think they should be left in the wild. My experience is it's a catch 22. They don't like high nitrates but dumping the food they need in your tank creates a battle with nitrates and the problems overfeeding can cause.

[gotfrogs]

Any more updates?

[aquatictec]

We ordered a green feather star to see how he would do in our non photo tank where we constantly feed a suspension of various foods. cyclop eeze, fish eggs, reef plankton


He proceeded to start loosing all his arms
We have various live foods around that we are using on research projects.
I researched it and decide to try live rotifers.
We feed 1 liter a day with about 500 rotifers per ml
He stopped loosing his arms recovered and is doing fine.
It has been about 4 months since we got him
The tank is a 30 breeder connected on a 2000 gallon system