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10/15/2017, 07:35 PM | #201 | |
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10/16/2017, 07:55 PM | #202 | ||
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For starters chaeto produces far less DOC than what we call nuisance algae. Keeping it in a system does not carry the risk having a lot of nuisance algae has. I would much rather do a cryptic sump/refugium than a lighted sump/refugium though. There are huge differences in the DOC (this includes sugars) released by algae and the DOC released by corals. Looking at Haas, et al, the DOC released by algae is promoting heterotrophic microbial activity that includes pathogeinc to corals, DOC released by corals promotes autotrophic microbial processes. Klunts & Kline have research showing DOC released by algae have a far worse effect on corals than inorganic nitrogen and inorganic PO4 Links for Haas, et all https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0425141821.htm https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3719129/ http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/...tcallback=true Links for Klunts & Kline: http://scrippsscholars.ucsd.edu/dkli...hree-caribbean http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps...4/m314p119.pdf Feldman, et al, (links are in post #18 my skimmerless thread) looked at skimmers and it's anybodies guess how much a skimmer is pulling out an any given time. Best case scenario is about 30% but often a skimmer might only be pulling out 10% or 15%. More importantly in my view is skimmers are really skewing the microbial population and we have no clue if it's beneficial or harmful long term. In light of the overwhelming evidence from all the life sciences on the importance of a healthy microbial balance it doesn't make sense to me to use one.
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10/16/2017, 08:40 PM | #203 | |
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10/16/2017, 10:37 PM | #204 |
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@Timfish, thanks for the articles. Does it mean that refugium, especially a large one, algae scrubber can potentially harmful to coral? How about carbon dosing or sugar dosing? Thanks
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10/16/2017, 10:41 PM | #205 |
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In terms of skimmer, I think it is effective toward large organic molecules from decomposition of organic matters and fish waste. I think it is still valuable to have.
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10/16/2017, 10:43 PM | #206 |
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I also interested in the study you mentioned that chaeto releases far less DOC. Can you please provide a link to that study? Thanks
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10/16/2017, 10:52 PM | #207 |
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Thanks Timfish for all the papers posted .it takes a while to go thru them. It's the problem of nuisance algae popping up that I have. I have two foxface in a two month prophylaxis and QT tank starting today and also some turbo snails . I have purchased zeolite and currently have some Seachem Matrix which is supposed to allow for bacterial anaerobic conversion of nitrate. Too little footprint under this 45 for all of these zones in addition to felt socks , skimmer, and return pump. I purchased better T5 bulbs today and will try to rearrange under sump to fit light fixture back in for the Chaetomorpha . Will try to put some substrate for the sponges in a low flow chamber. Cramming this all in a 20gal tall sump. Hard to do. I like the skimmer and the GAC to keep the water from yellowing so much. I guess I am trying to adsorb excess nutrients but also allow for natural recycling and binding of nutrients thru different zones. I will see how this works.
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10/16/2017, 10:58 PM | #208 | |
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I'd be curious if these pathogens are released from the algaes while simply growing, or the die back, or indirectly by fish after eating the algae? |
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10/17/2017, 12:34 AM | #209 | |
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The study's aquariums that used skimmers and GAC had TOC levels equal to NRW but water column bacteria counts far lower than NRW. Feldman noted that SPS corals do well in the skimmed, GAC aquariums but not in the aquariums with TOC levels slightly higher than, and water column bacteria counts equal to NRW. I'd take two things from this. one, sps don't particulaly like water column bacteria content above a certain level, no matter the cause (carbon dosing or algae) or type of bacteria. And two, perhaps a useful purpose of a skimmer is the removal of water column bacteria. |
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10/17/2017, 08:01 AM | #210 | |
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10/17/2017, 08:40 AM | #211 | |
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And regarding your question about various amount of DOC released by algae Dr. Haas gave a presentation on it to the local reef club 2 years ago on his research that showed DOC was completly removed in eutrophic system completely dominated by what we call nuisance algae. He had a chart showing the amount of DOC released by by different types and chaeto and halimeda were at the bottom. I've not bought some of his papers which might contain the info but I do have an emial to him and will pass on specifics when I get them.
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10/17/2017, 08:42 AM | #212 | |
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10/17/2017, 02:47 PM | #213 | |
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The algae scrubbers were in operation from 1987 to 2002 and were removed from the Coral Reef Exhibit (CRE) at the GBR Aquarium because - 1. Most importantly, the Algae Turf Farms effects on CRE filtration were negligible, especially when compared to the CRE’s overall internal algal mass productivity. The ATF only accounted for 0.1% of systems overall algal mass) 2. they were too labour intensive (algae removal & servicing of troublesome dump buckets). The ATF consisted of 70 shallow PVC trays approximately 2 m in length and 1 m in width. 3. The pvc used to build the scrubbers was leaching toxins into the water. Possibly because they were affected by direct sun light. I know this because I was given a personal behind the scenes tour of the Aquarium in March this year by the Aquarium's Curator. Now lets look at the actual measures taken to improve water quality to improve coral mortality rates. A significant shift occurred during 2002 with how the CRE was maintained when the aquarium was closed to the public for almost five months to maintain and upgrade the facility. The CRE history is divided into two periods – The “Oceanic Water period” (pre-2002) Average corals survival rate was only 20% to 30% The “Estuarine Water period” (2002 to present) corals survival rate increased to 70% to 80% (possibly higher now). The changes made to the systems maintenance that were considered most critical to improving coral survival were – 1. The switch from using priori ultra-clean oceanic water, collected offshore by barge, to using ‘less pure’ estuarine water collected on the incoming tide from the Ross Creek to increase nutrients and provide an external source of plankton. 2. The removal of internal mechanical filtration (three large sand filters). This improve overall tank health by avoiding ‘over stripping’ the water column of particulates and encouraging plankton production, greater food availability, and larval settlement, especially during spawning periods 3. Internal circulation was increased. 4. The use of calcium chloride to raise average calcium levels (~ 250 mg Ca2+.L-1, to 420 mg Ca2+.L-1) https://www.burgerszoo.com/media/560570/chapter-26.pdf https://www.burgerszoo.com/media/560502/chapter-9.pdf |
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10/17/2017, 02:48 PM | #214 |
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@Timfish
Thank you very much for the information. Do you remembere which algae release the most DOC and where were caulerpa algae sit on the chat? Thanks again. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
10/17/2017, 04:06 PM | #215 |
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Cryptic Sponge & Sea Squirt Filtration Methodology
I found this article by Haas.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0027973 Quote: turf algae produced nearly twice as much DOC per unit surface area than the other benthic producers (14.0±2.8 µmol h−1 dm−2), stimulating rapid bacterioplankton growth (0.044±0.002 log10 cells h−1) and concomitant oxygen drawdown (0.16±0.05 µmol L−1 h−1 dm−2). Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
10/17/2017, 04:22 PM | #216 |
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I don't see an issue with higher DOC. It's more food flowing in the system.
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10/17/2017, 05:05 PM | #217 | |
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Look at the specs for Sanjay's first 3 listed tanks - his 55, 29 and 28g tanks. None of these use a skimmer, yet one, the 28g has significantly lower water column bacteria counts than the other two. The only difference between these three of Sanjay's tanks is, his 28g has a sandbed. Last edited by Scrubber_steve; 10/17/2017 at 11:00 PM. |
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10/17/2017, 09:29 PM | #218 |
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Cryptic Sponge & Sea Squirt Filtration Methodology
I suspect there was a large amount of bacteria in the 28g with sand bed were on the sand bed. Assuming there are similar TOC per gallon in those three tanks.
I guess different inhabitants in those tanks as well as different feeding regiments can cause the difference as well. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
10/17/2017, 10:43 PM | #219 |
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I keep a 3" sand bed and the fauna there is amazing... detritus consumers from cucumbers to worms... that's step 1 in my poop loop.
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10/18/2017, 06:23 AM | #220 | |
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10/18/2017, 08:24 AM | #221 |
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Tim,
With respect to DOC procured by coral and DOC produced by macro, why are the bacteria feeding on these two different sources of DOC different. If my understanding of DOC is currect, it an organic soup of many different components. If bacteria are oxygen producers or oxygen consumers then the DOC they consume must have different compounds. Not able to measure DOC accurately, I blanket use GAC.
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10/18/2017, 09:18 AM | #222 |
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Why use anything? My focus has always been on reduced inorganic N and P. The organics are just food or life... that will generate more life. Sponges, corals, pods, worms, feather dusters, etc...
That natural abundance will naturally create opportunity for something to consume it. The downside for me has been the lack of predation to balance the explosive growth. Basically featherdusters, Xenia and GSP grew out of control - not algae. I need at least one angel and one butterfly to get things back in balance. Just the way nature works it out.
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10/18/2017, 09:21 AM | #223 |
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FWIW, among the historical objections to the use of the ATS has been that they leech undesirables back into the aquarium. I saw Adey's system at the Smithsonian many years ago, and it was not doing well at all, though perhaps for reasons beyond just sole reliance on ATS. My own journey with these things (initiated with Adey's classic book) has 'convinced' me that the ATS can be a very useful component of a filtration system; just not the sole component. I run the output of my ATS through my large skimmer (to remove as much DOC as possible) and use GAC continuously (further DOC removal and any green coloration). Been doing it this way for a while, with good results. I do agree that a benthic/cryptic zone can be enormously beneficial - I run one as well.
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10/18/2017, 10:10 AM | #224 |
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I'm confused. I've had no issues with DOCs and I have a large healthy scrubber
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10/18/2017, 02:09 PM | #225 | |
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Simon Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones! Current Tank Info: 450 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs |
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