Anthias dying one by one

[hanas]

I'm posting this in the Reef Fishes section as opposed to Fish Diseases since I do not believe any illness is causing this situation to occur....but I could be wrong

My first encounter of this happening was when I purchased a trio of Dispair anthias from a reputable online vendor (LA DD). After 4 weeks of QT which always includes 3 rounds of prazipro, the fish were acting completely fine and eating like pigs from day one and also during the several rounds of prazipro. They were introduced to my reef tank and were doing extremely well for 2 months until the smallest anthias of the group would stop eating. He would show interest in food and actually eat it, but then spit it out and continued to do this repeatedly until it basically starved to death. I mixed up the food options and tried almost every frozen food variety with no success.

One by one, each of them displayed the same "symptoms" until all 3 perished, almost in order of smallest to largest. Thinking it could possibly be flukes, despite my other inhabitants (Regal Angel, Purple Tang, Radiant Wrasse, Leopard Wrasse, Pair of Black Onyx Clowns, FlameHawkfish) acting completely healthy and being in the display tank for over a year now, I did 3 rounds of Prazipro in my reef tank just to ensure nothing slipped past QT.

After waiting a few months, I decided to purchase another trio of anthias (1" - 2" in size), this time Lyretail and all females. Well, now after several months of the same situation above, I'm seeing the same issue occurring again with the smallest anthias of the group and fear it will happen to all three again.

Is this a possibly pecking order issue, but if so, then why would the last anthias standing also perish in the end? Anyone experience something similar to this? There is no bullying from any of their tankmates and not even amongst the trio.

[Yogre]

I've had this happen recently, too. I had 3 dispars from Diver's Den that made it through QT just fine with 2 rounds of Prazi. Within 2 months of being added to the display tank, they all died, starting with the smallest then the middle one and finally the largest. They all died like yours, simply stopped eating. I never saw any signs of aggression between the three of them.

I'm at a complete loss as to why they died. They were being fed three times daily, too, with a mix of fish eggs, calanus, and chopped mysis shrimp.

[BlackTip]

Sorry for your lose. I don't have experience keeping Anthias. However, all of my previous research indicates that they don't live long in captivity. Only lucky few who were able to keep them long term.

[Dealseer]

"Eating like pigs". This could be a sign of malnutrition. Fish are not supposed to eat like pigs.

[Tripod1404]

Nami19, like you and Yogre same thing happened to my dispar trio. For the first month or so, they were fine and eating. Then one by one they started to lose interest in food, got extremely nervous, went into hiding, and died. It only took 2-3 days for the symptoms to appear and fish to die.

Do you remember if DD listed the origin of the fish. I feel these are the symptoms of cyanide poisoning, even the unusually high apatite at first is attributed to cyanide poisoning. My fish showed symptoms similar to neurological disorders, like being extremely sensitive to light or being spooked for no apparent reason. That is why I was suspecting cyanide poisoning. If large number of people are experiencing this, DD might be getting these fish from vendors that use cyanide.

[hanas]

Tripod1404 - My initial thought (and still) is a potential cyanide poisoning.

Dealseer - "Eating like pigs" was an expression I used, feeding "normally" 4x per day and eagerly eating. Having anthias before, they do gobble up food but can only hold a little at a time due to their smaller size. And if you don't think fish eat like pigs, come watch my Regal Angel!!

[ca1ore]

Any signs of disease on the fish? Body ulcerations are common on anthias. Beyond that, they will pick each other off if the tank is too small or they are underfed. The 'winner' should survive though. Anthias are open water swimmers, so less likely to be cyanide caught.

[hanas]

Nothing at all Simon, which is why I've basically ruled out illness.....it's certainly odd that this had happened (or seems to be happening now on the 2nd trio) to two separate trio's of anthias. I saw no visible wounds, patches, fin loss, loss of color and even a FW dip after death revealed no flukes.

I do agree that they pick each other off as I've witnessed in my old 90G with Bartlett's, but this is a 140G with smaller sized anthias at 1" (smallest) to 2" (largest) with no "last man standing" in the end. If there was one survivor at the end, then I would accept it and move on as that being the culprit.

I can't explain it.

[ca1ore]

Anthias are a pain. Odd though.

[anthonys51]

How big is your tank. Anthies thst are scared will stop eating and slowely starve to death. Normally it's other anthies that bully them but maybe your other fish did.


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[hanas]

anthonys51 - it's a 140G and I've witnessed no bullying from tankmates (not even at introduction) nor the normal pecking behavior within the trio.

Could be tank size, but I know if this trio goes, then I'm done for awhile with Anthias.

[anthonys51]

I bought had 4 anthies in a 57. Over the course of 4 months it dwindled down to a male and female. You don't think 140 is too small for lyretails


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[Tripod1404]

Originally Posted by Nami19

anthonys51 - it's a 140G and I've witnessed no bullying from tankmates (not even at introduction) nor the normal pecking behavior within the trio.

Could be tank size, but I know if this trio goes, then I'm done for awhile with Anthias.

Yep this was also my case. No wounds, no aggression or bullying. At most there was flashing between the trio, but there wasn't any physical contact between the fish even than. Plus no fish went into hiding due to that.

In my case the progression was like this;

1- All anthias acted normal, was eating and breathing at normal rates and was swimming in the open.

2- One anthias started to hide more than usual, I still came out to eat and spent some time with the other anthias in the open.

3- Anthias that started to hide also started to act oddly. It would still come out and eat but It would also got spooked for no apparent reason. For instance, while hiding it would dart out from the cave at full speed, hitting the glass or rocks and breathing at a super high rate. Then it would calm down and return to the cave and breathing rate would drip to normal levels.

4- Hiding anthias lost interest in food. The small amount of food that it shows interest is not eaten and spitted out. Odd behaviors were becoming more and more frequent with fish darting around the tank for minutes in some cases as if it is being chased by something.

5- Hiding anthias stopped eating completely. It seemed to be in a constant state of confusion. Either darting around or always being in an alert state (looking around and acting from inside the cave as if there is something out there ). When light are dimmer it seemed calmer.

6- Anthias died. All my anthias that progressed this way died in 2-3 days. Most died during the night but one fish that died during the day was constantly darting around and it eventually started to lose its balance and was just swimming aimlessly until death.

You know symptoms of cyanide poisoning in humans include confusion, bizarre behavior, seizures, vertigo and hallucinations. These mostly result from the damage to the nervous system since cyanide is a neurotoxin. Its hard to compare human symptoms to fish behavior but I was able to see some similarities to it.

[Yogre]

I doubt tank size was an issue in my case. It's a 215', 72 by 24 by 31 tall.

I saw a lot of the same symptoms that Tripod1404 saw. The fish would stop eating and hide at the bottom. Even attempts to feed individually were rejected. The fish would eventually simply disappear, I'm sure it died and was eaten by my cleanup crew. This happened one after another with my dispars, starting with the smallest and ending with the largest. I never did see any signs of conspecific aggression, nor did any other fish in the tank pay them any mind.

Diver's Den did not specify the region of origin of my trio.

[anthonys51]

It could be poisoning does anyone know how long it takes to kill the fish


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[Tripod1404]

Originally Posted by anthonys51

It could be poisoning does anyone know how long it takes to kill the fish


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As far as I know there is no definite duration. It depends on how much cyanide they were exposed to and for how long. Some fish can show no symptoms for months than quickly deteriorate for no apparent reason.

Most common symptoms are sudden loss of apatite and going into hiding. I have also heard poisoned fish showing unusual behaviors like becoming extremely brave (not hiding or trying to get away from netting) or colors becoming unusually bright or in my case, I suspect becoming extremely nervous.

[anthonys51]

I personally ordered from liveaqauria once. I really didn't have a good experience. I know a lot of people like that they replace the fish in 14 days for free but honestly I feel company that sell crap need to have such great warranties.


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[fishfreak2009]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

Any signs of disease on the fish? Body ulcerations are common on anthias. Beyond that, they will pick each other off if the tank is too small or they are underfed. The 'winner' should survive though. Anthias are open water swimmers, so less likely to be cyanide caught.

Unfortunately cyanide is used much more commonly than a lot of people realize. I recently lost a pair of regal angels and a trio of multibar angels to what I'm 99% sure was cyanide poisoning. Upon necropsy they had all the tell tale signs (abscesses on spleen and liver, necrotic and atrophied stomach and intestines, muscle loss behind the eyes, etc. The fish also greedily ate at first and had wonderful color, but gradually stopped eating and whittled away. They eventually refused all foods, began losing balance in the water, and perished.

Even with open water swimmers like anthias, a recent study was done with fish tested for thiocyanate in the urine, a byproduct from cyanide exposure. Out of 16 green Chromis tested from different LFS, 13 of them tested positive for various levels of thiocyanate. I think this has a lot to do with long term survival of groups of Chromis in aquariums as well.

[fishfreak2009]

I no longer purchase fish online. I want to see what I'm buying, make sure it is eating well, know where it comes from, and how it was collected. Any fish coming from "Indonesia", Bali, Cebu, Philippines, or Sumatra is normally cut from my consideration.

[anthonys51]

My lfs gets most of its fish from Bali. I have very good survival rate with him. Although I can't say for sure that all my fish came from Bali. I think maybe more the coral. I know He direct imports from all over plus I know the my Naso and anthies are out of Africa


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[tkeracer619]

Prazi may not get internal pests. I always feed food that I make with Metronidazole.

[Naraku]

I think my Heniochus chrysostomus possibly is cyanided as well.

[fishfreak2009]

Originally Posted by Naraku

I think my Heniochus chrysostomus possibly is cyanided as well.

If you want to find out for sure, Idexx Reference Labs will test dead fish for cyanide left over in their flesh. Its an expensive test (around $300) but it would be worth it to find out. I was going to send in the last regal angelfish I lost, but the specimen was thrown away accidentally by a coworker (we did the necropsy, but they didn't realize it was being sent in for testing as well).

If you are able to isolate the butterfly in a tank of newly mixed up synthetic saltwater for a 24 hour span, you can also collect a water sample and have it tested for thiocyanate, a byproduct of cyanide exposure in reef fish. There are a couple laboratories in Florida and California that are able to detect thiocyanate in the water, confirming the diagnosis. This test is slightly less expensive than the test up above. Try googling an aquatics vet in California or Florida or the University of Florida Tropical Aquaculture Lab and they can give you phone numbers for various labs.

[Naraku]

I don't think it matters. In the end, you won't know if your next order is cyanided anyways.
Yet, we pay premium to our suppliers for #%@^@^.
I am not happy about it.

Originally Posted by fishfreak2009

If you want to find out for sure, Idexx Reference Labs will test dead fish for cyanide left over in their flesh. Its an expensive test (around $300) but it would be worth it to find out. I was going to send in the last regal angelfish I lost, but the specimen was thrown away accidentally by a coworker (we did the necropsy, but they didn't realize it was being sent in for testing as well).

If you are able to isolate the butterfly in a tank of newly mixed up synthetic saltwater for a 24 hour span, you can also collect a water sample and have it tested for thiocyanate, a byproduct of cyanide exposure in reef fish. There are a couple laboratories in Florida and California that are able to detect thiocyanate in the water, confirming the diagnosis. This test is slightly less expensive than the test up above. Try googling an aquatics vet in California or Florida or the University of Florida Tropical Aquaculture Lab and they can give you phone numbers for various labs.

[Tripod1404]

Originally Posted by Naraku

I don't think it matters. In the end, you won't know if your next order is cyanided anyways.
Yet, we pay premium to our suppliers for #%@^@^.
I am not happy about it.

Best option is to avoid fish originating from south east Asia where cyanide fishing is widespread. Try to get fish coming around great barrier reef, such as Australia, Vanuatu, Fiji, solomon islands and etc. Cyanide fishing is not practiced in those regions.