Refugium tips (formerly "flow rate thorugh a refugium") - Page 4

Anthony Calfo · 03/23/2005, 05:51 PM

do give this (Chaetomorpha) refugium at least 400-500 gph for vigorous growth and health

good to hear from you too, Walt.

kindly, Anthony

walt13 · 03/23/2005, 06:00 PM

Anthony

Thank you again,

Walt

Anthony Calfo · 03/23/2005, 06:39 PM

always welcome my friend

turbo2oh · 03/26/2005, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by StevenPro
The best picture I have of my sump/refugium is here,
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showp...t=1&thecat=500

Does the water enter the fuge part by simply spilling over the neighboring side? It looks like it spills over then comes down onto the lip. Is this correct? Is there an decline ramp there where it spills over? Its hard to tell with the glare. The pic is much appreciated though

Anthony Calfo · 03/26/2005, 06:29 PM

I can comment here (am close friends with Steve, and have seen this display):

The water for the refugium does indeed spill over a shared wall (then crashes down on that glass lip sealed slightly below the water level on that right side).

Notice that the sequence is very appropriately: raw water from above (display), dropping to the far right (first) chamber (you can see the skimmer cup just behind the post)... then to the refugium... then to the sump proper before being returned (pump) to the display.

ohioreef · 03/27/2005, 02:16 AM

Below is a pic of my fuge. From reading this thread, I obviously do not have enough flow. I am trying to grow chaeto.

Would putting a PH running through a spraybar work to get my chaeto moving as well as increase flow?

The input is tee'd off my return pump and controlled by a ball valve. Right now I have it entering at the bottom of the fuge through a T, as you can see.

spamin76 · 03/30/2005, 08:50 AM

Wow - great thread - I had been wondering on how to optimize my fugue - now a I know!!

mike9515756 · 03/31/2005, 02:13 PM

Anthony, can i throw in cheato in my open sump, box it in with egg crate with no dsb and hope to reduce nitrates? Or is a DSB very important?

Daemonfly · 04/04/2005, 11:50 PM

Good thread

Been reading up on it all as I'm going to be setting up a 20g long (wier/external overflow) with a 10g fuge.

Anthony Calfo · 04/04/2005, 11:55 PM

I don't see the Chaeto being your principal means of nitrate reduction, even indirectly with a larger quantity. It has many benefits... but does not excel on that point.

Instead... use a DSB, large-deep live rocks, and/or aggressive skimming to temper nitrates.

Daemonfly · 04/05/2005, 12:37 AM

Anthony, would you consider a 20g long or especially a 10g fuge too small for a DSB to even work efficiently, or much at all?

Anthony Calfo · 04/07/2005, 11:16 PM

it would depend of course on the bioload (need for denitrification not otherwise satisfied). But yes... they are rather small vessels even with a lot of sand to expect significant NNR in

ohioreef · 04/17/2005, 05:37 AM

I installed a spraybar in my fuge (see pic above) and increased the flow to get my ball "rolling."

My chaeto seems to be much healthier now. It is no longer floating. The color is a darker green and the balls are much denser.

reefkeeper59 · 04/18/2005, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wayne in norway
I was at the DIY shop a few weeks ago, and saw 500 watt work lights on stands for 25 dollars apiece.... very tempting. If I stick it on my little refugium I would get nearly 100 watts/gallon of nasty algae friendly light

I have a 500 watt shop light. They put out Alot of heat. Not sure that would be a good idea. I can put my hand 4 feet from the light and feel it. Don't dare touch the housing, you will get burnt. Much,much hotter than my 250w MH fixture's. May as well put a torch under your tank. I painted a bed room, and used 500watt for lighting. the room got hot.

DgenR8 · 04/18/2005, 02:57 AM

Those work lights are halogen, and while they do put out a LOT of light, they are not effecient, you are paying (in electricity) for all that heat being created.

Anthony Calfo · 05/12/2005, 09:23 PM

It would be fabulous if there was a window close enough to set a small refugium on a shelf while plumbed inline to grab indirect sunlight at least

Nuhtty · 05/14/2005, 05:46 PM

Here is a quick design of my sump/fuge

I am considering a new bulb. It was an old one I had hanging around.

I am looking for a light that can simply screw into the cone aluminum reflector.

Also, I have just added refugium mud to the system and have not yet added or decided on a type of macro.

Any suggestions? I am filtering a 65 gallon tank. The fuge has about 800gph of flow through it, but the bottom of the fuge area is calm.

Should I put a small powerhead in there or will the high surface flow be sufficient?

Thanks

Anthony Calfo · 06/03/2005, 05:42 PM

Nuhtty... the flow likely needs increased for this refugium in two principal areas. The "calm" zone at the bottom is a concern in almost any/every tank (excessively accumulating nutrients/solids over time) except for bare-bottomed vessels that are specifically acting as a settling chamber and get serviced regularly (siphon detritus weekly or more often).

Make a concerted effort to keep solids in suspension for processing by filterfeeders or exporting (via skimmers, mechanical filters,etc.).

My other area of concern is the live rock/rubble "prefilter" of incoming water. This honestly serves no practical purpose but instead tends to handicap the system (trapping detritus over time or simply nitrifying matter when we'd rather it got consumed directly, or exported as per above.

Very nice diagram too! Thanks for sharing

Anthony

BrianPlankis · 06/20/2005, 04:49 PM

Anthony,

I just read through this entire thread and it has given me a lot to think about! I'm getting ready to build a replacement sump for my 75 gallon tank. I have a 29 gallon tank and will be building my own baffles. If you could take a quick look at my design, do you see any major design flaws or could you suggest any improvements?

A couple of comments:

1. The shelf going into the refugium was a suggestion I saw in this thread, to give a more laminar flow that will help rotate the cheato.

2. I can position the output from my skimmer to return to the drain section, allowing some of the water to go through the skimmer again, is this a good idea?

3. Is my bubble trap correct, under, over, under?

Thanks!

Brian

Anthony Calfo · 06/20/2005, 07:38 PM

cheers, Brian (love the avatar BTW... heehee)

The design looks very fine... my one main concern is the the size of the sump proper is inevitably rather small here (less than 10 gallons of water for a 75 gallon tank. This is a problem with all such integrated refugiums... but is still a limitation to some extent.

Now with the evap top off device... it is less of a concern. So long as this small sump can handle the drainage from the display and plumbing above in the event of a power outage, all will be OK.

It still would be nice to have more water to buffer the system. Public aquariums often use sumps at 1:1 ratios with the display. Great benefits to having larger sumps indeed. I'd love to see at least a 20 gallon reserve here... 40 gall would likely have been my opt.

Alfalfameister · 06/21/2005, 05:11 AM

Heh... I know a guy, because of desk space, has a nice 15 gallon tank with a 50 gallon sump! He says at least he saves on lighting, and all he wanted was something on his desk anyway (his desk is drilled, and so is the tank).

BrianPlankis · 06/21/2005, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anthony Calfo
cheers, Brian (love the avatar BTW... heehee)

The design looks very fine... my one main concern is the the size of the sump proper is inevitably rather small here (less than 10 gallons of water for a 75 gallon tank. This is a problem with all such integrated refugiums... but is still a limitation to some extent.

Now with the evap top off device... it is less of a concern. So long as this small sump can handle the drainage from the display and plumbing above in the event of a power outage, all will be OK.

It still would be nice to have more water to buffer the system. Public aquariums often use sumps at 1:1 ratios with the display. Great benefits to having larger sumps indeed. I'd love to see at least a 20 gallon reserve here... 40 gall would likely have been my opt.

Anthony,

Glad you like the avatar, but I can't claim I made it, another RC reefer poormedstudent made it for me. But I am THE cirolanid hunter, but that is a WHOLE other story.

Glad you like the sump. I agree with you that bigger would be better, unfortunately due to my tank situation I am limited to a 30x12 footprint, there is simply no more room. I just checked all glass aquarium's website and they do offer a 37 gallon that is the same footprint but 22 inches tall. That might be too tall, but I'll do some measurements tonight.

The reason I'm making this 29 sump is that I currently have a 20L as a sump and while it will handle the drainage in the event of a power outage, the water goes all the way to the top and any tiny leak from my return pipe or drain will result in a flood, so the 29 will prevent that from happening.

Thanks for your input!

Brian

stevedola · 06/22/2005, 08:17 AM

Brian,
To increase water volume but continue to stay within your limitations you could employ a small 10 gallon gravity fed fuge that almost sits upon (with some stand mods) the 29g sump. The drain from the 75g could be split and valve to have water enter the fuge and sump and have the fuge simply drain into the sump for return to the main tank. This would give you almost 40g of added volume and still stay with in your limits. Ive seen it done and worked quite well. If you needed more flow you could just add a small power head to keep water circulating. Just an idea-

stevedola · 06/22/2005, 08:52 AM

BrianPlankis · 06/22/2005, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by stevedola
Brian,
To increase water volume but continue to stay within your limitations you could employ a small 10 gallon gravity fed fuge that almost sits upon (with some stand mods) the 29g sump. The drain from the 75g could be split and valve to have water enter the fuge and sump and have the fuge simply drain into the sump for return to the main tank. This would give you almost 40g of added volume and still stay with in your limits. Ive seen it done and worked quite well. If you needed more flow you could just add a small power head to keep water circulating. Just an idea-

This is an interesting idea and I'll look into it. Unfortunately it won't work with just a standard 10 gallon as my stand only has interior room of 29 inches and 18 inches and 10 inches are just too tight. I know a local reefer that does custom acrylic jobs and I might have him make a custom tank to use as a fuge in your idea. Things to think about.....

Thanks,

Brian

03/23/2005, 05:51 PM	#76
Anthony Calfo Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 5,436	do give this (Chaetomorpha) refugium at least 400-500 gph for vigorous growth and health good to hear from you too, Walt. kindly, Anthony __________________ "If you give a man a fish, he eats for a day... but if you teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime." Current Tank Info: 2K gallon fishroom, garden ponds

03/23/2005, 06:39 PM	#78
Anthony Calfo Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 5,436	always welcome my friend __________________ "If you give a man a fish, he eats for a day... but if you teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime." Current Tank Info: 2K gallon fishroom, garden ponds

03/26/2005, 06:29 PM	#80
Anthony Calfo Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 5,436	I can comment here (am close friends with Steve, and have seen this display): The water for the refugium does indeed spill over a shared wall (then crashes down on that glass lip sealed slightly below the water level on that right side). Notice that the sequence is very appropriately: raw water from above (display), dropping to the far right (first) chamber (you can see the skimmer cup just behind the post)... then to the refugium... then to the sump proper before being returned (pump) to the display. __________________ "If you give a man a fish, he eats for a day... but if you teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime." Current Tank Info: 2K gallon fishroom, garden ponds

03/27/2005, 02:16 AM	#81
ohioreef Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Western Ohio Posts: 3,106	Below is a pic of my fuge. From reading this thread, I obviously do not have enough flow. I am trying to grow chaeto. Would putting a PH running through a spraybar work to get my chaeto moving as well as increase flow? The input is tee'd off my return pump and controlled by a ball valve. Right now I have it entering at the bottom of the fuge through a T, as you can see. __________________ Gary

03/30/2005, 08:50 AM	#82
spamin76 Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: University of Cincinnati Posts: 3,715	Wow - great thread - I had been wondering on how to optimize my fugue - now a I know!! __________________ Humuhumunukunukuapua'a! Current Tank Info: 24g nano reef

03/23/2005, 06:00 PM	#77
walt13 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: ST Paul, MN Posts: 154	Anthony Thank you again, Walt

03/31/2005, 02:13 PM	#83
mike9515756 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Montreal Canada Posts: 230	Anthony, can i throw in cheato in my open sump, box it in with egg crate with no dsb and hope to reduce nitrates? Or is a DSB very important? __________________ "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." - Albert Einstein (1879-1955) Current Tank Info: 130g, 100lb marshall, 10lb indo, 15 lb tonga, 20lb fiji, Euro Reef CS 6-1, 440w VHO 660 icecap

04/04/2005, 11:50 PM	#84
Daemonfly Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Pa Posts: 806	Good thread Been reading up on it all as I'm going to be setting up a 20g long (wier/external overflow) with a 10g fuge.

04/04/2005, 11:55 PM	#85
Anthony Calfo Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 5,436	I don't see the Chaeto being your principal means of nitrate reduction, even indirectly with a larger quantity. It has many benefits... but does not excel on that point. Instead... use a DSB, large-deep live rocks, and/or aggressive skimming to temper nitrates. __________________ "If you give a man a fish, he eats for a day... but if you teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime." Current Tank Info: 2K gallon fishroom, garden ponds

04/05/2005, 12:37 AM	#86
Daemonfly Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Pa Posts: 806	Anthony, would you consider a 20g long or especially a 10g fuge too small for a DSB to even work efficiently, or much at all?

04/07/2005, 11:16 PM	#87
Anthony Calfo Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 5,436	it would depend of course on the bioload (need for denitrification not otherwise satisfied). But yes... they are rather small vessels even with a lot of sand to expect significant NNR in __________________ "If you give a man a fish, he eats for a day... but if you teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime." Current Tank Info: 2K gallon fishroom, garden ponds

04/17/2005, 05:37 AM	#88
ohioreef Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Western Ohio Posts: 3,106	I installed a spraybar in my fuge (see pic above) and increased the flow to get my ball "rolling." My chaeto seems to be much healthier now. It is no longer floating. The color is a darker green and the balls are much denser. __________________ Gary

04/18/2005, 02:57 AM	#90
DgenR8 I'm an American and I remember Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 43,992	Those work lights are halogen, and while they do put out a LOT of light, they are not effecient, you are paying (in electricity) for all that heat being created. __________________ “I wish there was a way to know that you were IN the good old days, before leaving them.” ~Andy Bernard Regional Manager, Scranton branch Dunder Mifflin Current Tank Info: Unknown slow drip, over 20 years damaged my house and heating system. No more tank.

05/12/2005, 09:23 PM	#91
Anthony Calfo Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 5,436	It would be fabulous if there was a window close enough to set a small refugium on a shelf while plumbed inline to grab indirect sunlight at least __________________ "If you give a man a fish, he eats for a day... but if you teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime." Current Tank Info: 2K gallon fishroom, garden ponds

05/14/2005, 05:46 PM	#92
Nuhtty Moved On Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 7,022	Here is a quick design of my sump/fuge I am considering a new bulb. It was an old one I had hanging around. I am looking for a light that can simply screw into the cone aluminum reflector. Also, I have just added refugium mud to the system and have not yet added or decided on a type of macro. Any suggestions? I am filtering a 65 gallon tank. The fuge has about 800gph of flow through it, but the bottom of the fuge area is calm. Should I put a small powerhead in there or will the high surface flow be sufficient? Thanks

06/03/2005, 05:42 PM	#93
Anthony Calfo Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 5,436	Nuhtty... the flow likely needs increased for this refugium in two principal areas. The "calm" zone at the bottom is a concern in almost any/every tank (excessively accumulating nutrients/solids over time) except for bare-bottomed vessels that are specifically acting as a settling chamber and get serviced regularly (siphon detritus weekly or more often). Make a concerted effort to keep solids in suspension for processing by filterfeeders or exporting (via skimmers, mechanical filters,etc.). My other area of concern is the live rock/rubble "prefilter" of incoming water. This honestly serves no practical purpose but instead tends to handicap the system (trapping detritus over time or simply nitrifying matter when we'd rather it got consumed directly, or exported as per above. Very nice diagram too! Thanks for sharing Anthony __________________ "If you give a man a fish, he eats for a day... but if you teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime." Current Tank Info: 2K gallon fishroom, garden ponds

06/20/2005, 04:49 PM	#94
BrianPlankis Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,956	new sump Anthony, I just read through this entire thread and it has given me a lot to think about! I'm getting ready to build a replacement sump for my 75 gallon tank. I have a 29 gallon tank and will be building my own baffles. If you could take a quick look at my design, do you see any major design flaws or could you suggest any improvements? A couple of comments: 1. The shelf going into the refugium was a suggestion I saw in this thread, to give a more laminar flow that will help rotate the cheato. 2. I can position the output from my skimmer to return to the drain section, allowing some of the water to go through the skimmer again, is this a good idea? 3. Is my bubble trap correct, under, over, under? Thanks! Brian __________________ Currently redesigning my 90 gallon tank system to support coral and invertebrate breeding. Click on my red house to see the thread with the progress. Current Tank Info: 75 Gallon Reef with 29 gal sump and 8 gal Clownfish species tank

06/20/2005, 07:38 PM	#95
Anthony Calfo Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 5,436	cheers, Brian (love the avatar BTW... heehee) The design looks very fine... my one main concern is the the size of the sump proper is inevitably rather small here (less than 10 gallons of water for a 75 gallon tank. This is a problem with all such integrated refugiums... but is still a limitation to some extent. Now with the evap top off device... it is less of a concern. So long as this small sump can handle the drainage from the display and plumbing above in the event of a power outage, all will be OK. It still would be nice to have more water to buffer the system. Public aquariums often use sumps at 1:1 ratios with the display. Great benefits to having larger sumps indeed. I'd love to see at least a 20 gallon reserve here... 40 gall would likely have been my opt. __________________ "If you give a man a fish, he eats for a day... but if you teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime." Current Tank Info: 2K gallon fishroom, garden ponds

06/21/2005, 05:11 AM	#96
Alfalfameister Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Manila, Philippines Posts: 135	Heh... I know a guy, because of desk space, has a nice 15 gallon tank with a 50 gallon sump! He says at least he saves on lighting, and all he wanted was something on his desk anyway (his desk is drilled, and so is the tank). __________________ https://t.me/pump_upp Current Tank Info: Currently building a 375

06/22/2005, 08:17 AM	#98
stevedola Master of my domain Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 3,466	Brian, To increase water volume but continue to stay within your limitations you could employ a small 10 gallon gravity fed fuge that almost sits upon (with some stand mods) the 29g sump. The drain from the 75g could be split and valve to have water enter the fuge and sump and have the fuge simply drain into the sump for return to the main tank. This would give you almost 40g of added volume and still stay with in your limits. Ive seen it done and worked quite well. If you needed more flow you could just add a small power head to keep water circulating. Just an idea- __________________ Cool Club Current Tank Info: coming soon...

06/22/2005, 08:52 AM	#99
stevedola Master of my domain Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 3,466	fuge idea __________________ Cool Club Current Tank Info: coming soon...