Use of Lasers in Controlling Pest Algae and Corals

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by billsreef

Really makes one wonder about the wisdom of playing with lasers, when there are other safer methods available.

Originally Posted by Yogre

Randy had the same point earlier in this thread. In an instant an individual's life was permanently altered.

I understand that life is not risk-free, but there are risks worth taking and others, not so much.

I won't be using any lasers in my tank. I'm not afraid of them, but for me the risk/reward ratio just isn't right.

Both certainly are valid points and everyone has to determine if the use of lasers are good choice in their situation.

By design, I've made it a point to include (highlight) the risks associated with failing to follow laser safety precautions - not becasue I beleive lasers to be a bad idea, but rather to "alert" those new to lasers into paying attention to the very real dangers and safety risks.

The single greatest risk is to your eyes (and potentially those of your livestock.) Using appropriate eye protection is an easy safety precaution to take, all but eliminating any risk to your vision whatsoever. A comparison might be to that of a welder using an arc shield. You simply MUST use adequate eye protection.

When used in a safe manner, I've found lasers to be an effective and surgically accurate way to manage certain pests in marine aquaria.

[Sk8r]

Seems to me that someone setting up an "I'll come to your house with my laser and take out your aiptasia" type business after getting himself insured and bonded, and taking expert precautions, including barring everyone from the room, might be better than people getting one of these things and going through a very, very dangerous learning curve.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Seems to me that someone setting up an "I'll come to your house with my laser and take out your aiptasia" type business after getting himself insured and bonded, and taking expert precautions, including barring everyone from the room, might be better than people getting one of these things and going through a very, very dangerous learning curve.

I've thought the same Sk8r - Maybe a nice additional service offering for service/maintenance companies (although I can just imagine the conversation with the insurance underwriter - "you want to do what???")

In reality, it's really not that complex, it's just that there are significant risk of bodily injury if the safety requirements are ignored.

[dimitrge]

From what Ive read you can't just buy them. Then i see them on ebay and reading in other threads you can get them from laser forums.

[TheFishMan65]

It is my understanding that it is illegal to sell a laser above some number of watts, but you can sell the parts or a kit. That is the way you need to look for them.

[JasonD]

Originally Posted by dimitrge

From what Ive read you can't just buy them. Then i see them on ebay and reading in other threads you can get them from laser forums.

Well thats true you can't buy them assembled but. . . Survival laser does sell a 'kit' that you assemble in about ten minutes that gives up to 2 watts of power Wow! I purchased a 1.4 watt laser that was delayed because they ran out of safety glasses.

Jason

[dimitrge]

They are still expensive at this point. Wish they had one less dangerous. I feel it's not worth the risk unless you have someone who's done it. I'm not looking to go blind. The rocks would go first lol

[jrpark22000]

I have ordered an additional set of safety glasses. OD7 rated for the appropriate wavelength I am using. With the large amount of reflection produced when shooting through glass I though it to be a worth wild investment.

I do have a concern that these will block too much light and make the laser dot hard to see. With my OD5 glasses my 1.4W dot still shows quite bright. I think I will still be able to see 1% of an OD5 dot. I’ll post back results after I receive the glasses.

Safety glass ratings for reference

[Sk8r]

CalmSeaQuest, I taught school. Many reefing hobbyists do track several things well at once. Unfortunately many, many perfectly worthwhile people cannot walk and chew gum at the same time; and when you throw in--1, know where your dog is; 2, resolve in advance not to be distracted by a ringing phone or doorbell, 3, impress on your 12 year old that they are also to ignore a phone call [the phone being in the living room], 4, figure what could be reflective, 5 have the right kind of safety glasses 6, make sure your work area is clear of reflective surfaces, 7, resolve in advance that should you be burned you are not going to react wildly, 8. have access to where you will need to move without tripping on the supply kit or other stuff on floor----
I'm talking about That Guy who is a sweetheart but who cannot serve himself cranberry sauce while wearing a pale suit. This is why I say far better to deal with a service company who can clear the toddlers and dogs out of the area and zap the designated areas while the homeowner is out of the room.

[Urchinhead]

I apologize if I missed this but... I didn't see anything describing how to aim the laser. I see references to a lower power green laser for targeting but what is the methodology you are using to aim then fire the larger capacity laser? Thanks!

[CJO]

This weekend, I started building a "proof of concept" model for a wand that can be used to protect people and livestock from many of the dangers of using a laser in the aquarium.



It uses some common parts and is fairly easy to make. The pieces from bottom to top-
•the laser;
•a 1" PVC coupling;
•a piece of flat PVC cut using a 1" hole saw and with a 1/2" hole cut in the middle. This will allow you to focus the laser without having to first remove it from the holder;
•a 3/4" piece of PVC cut to length;
•a clear piece of acrylic cut using a 1" hole saw; and,
•a safety glass lens with a 1" hole cut in it.

The only issue I really had making this was trying to use a hole saw without a center drill bit to drill a clean piece of acrylic. Also, the only silicone I had at home had dried up, so I picked some more glued everything together.

My first trial yesterday didn't work out that well. I hadn't sealed the end well enough with silicone and water got in. I added some additional silicone last night and tried it out again today.

The second trial was much better. It works very well as a proof of concept. I could get right next to what I wanted to lase without the water interfering with the beam, the shield blocks out most of the light, and I was able to focus the laser with it in use.

There are a couple of things, however, that could be improved. I would like to put on a wider shield to stop as many reflections as practical and I need to experiment some with the shield material until I can find one that is effective enough to shield the light, but still let enough through so that you can see the end of the beam with your safety glasses on.

CJ

[TheFishMan65]

Can you explain how the flat PVC allows focusing? I am having trouble picturing that.

[CJO]

The focus knob on the laser fits snugly in the hole drilled into the flat piece of PVC. The PVC is glued to the wand. This allows you to focus the laser by rotating the laser while keeping the wand stationary (or vise versa).

CJ

[zachtos]

Thread should be closed. This is not safe and many members of the community will try this regardless of warnings. There are ways to deal with aptasia without risk of blindness. Lasers will be better regulated in the future.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by zachtos

Thread should be closed. This is not safe and many members of the community will try this regardless of warnings. There are ways to deal with aptasia without risk of blindness. Lasers will be better regulated in the future.

I disagree.

Closing this thread, and the like others will not result in lasers not being tried/used in aquaria. It would mean that important safety information will not be available. It's foolish to think that tank owners won't try using lasers, after all I and many others did so without the benefit of any education or safety standards.

If anything, showing the potential safety risks and repercussions in such a graphic manner (i.e. burned and bloodied retina) will dissuade many from even considering using a laser, believing the risk/reward ratio to be too steep (a now common response.) That said, your focus on the potential vision risk is completely eliminated by simply wearing the appropriate safety glasses.

At present, I don't personally beleive the use of lasers will become wide spread - not because of potential risks to the user (which I believe are easily managed) or even the costs, but rather the steps required to protect the tank inhabitants. You MUST prevent the livestock from being exposed to the beam endpoint and from being struck by the laser beam itself. It certainly can be done, but I suspect the process and equipment required will be more than most are willing to go through. This, in and of itself works toward limiting those willing to use a laser, to those that are willing to take the proper safety precautions - A goal that would not be met if your suggestion to limit this information were enacted.

As the costs of higher output diodes continues to fall, they will become far more commonplace. The best opportunity is to educate - not hide and hope no one comes up with a potentially very dangerous use of a new technology.

[CJO]

Originally Posted by zachtos

Thread should be closed. This is not safe and many members of the community will try this regardless of warnings. There are ways to deal with aptasia without risk of blindness. Lasers will be better regulated in the future.

Well, you should probably lock any thread with Kalkwasser or Aiptasia-X in it too. Both of those use calcium hydroxide, which is a very strong base and can be very hazardous when it comes in contact with some other chemicals.

Oh, we should probably lock any thread with powerstrips in them as salt water and power strips are a potentially deadly combination.. actually, make that anything that uses high-voltage AC.

Also, anything with venomous fish. Or zoanthids or palythoas, both of which can have a deadly palytoxin...

I'm being a bit facetious, but you can hopefully see my point. There are things we use every day that can be dangerous. I agree with Tom, we need to concentrate on working with these safely. I treat mine like a gun.

CJ

[BeanAnimal]

Maybe a fiber optic extension could be fabricated so that a gloved hand could be used to lase the targets directly from within the tank. This would help to reduce reflections....

[jrpark22000]

Originally Posted by BeanAnimal

Maybe a fiber optic extension could be fabricated so that a gloved hand could be used to lase the targets directly from within the tank. This would help to reduce reflections....

A good idea. At least the survuvallaser's effectiveness in the aquarium is the focus of the beam. It really is a fine adjustmnet which must be meet to reach optimum effectiveness in the tank. I am not sure how one would be able to focus the light from a fiber w/o some secondary optics. The fiber charastics would also need to be figured in; attenutation, and phase/dispersion.

[Yogre]

I'm going to comment once more on this thread, and then I'll leave y'all alone.

As higher power diodes become available, I hope these devices become heavily restricted/regulated. Here's why:

I'm an airline pilot. I personally have not been lased in flight but one of my friends has. He was flash blinded for the remainder of the flight; fortunately his captain was not. He said it was the scariest thing he's experienced, and he's a former Navy FA-18 pilot, so I don't think he's easily frightened. The fact that at least a couple of people on this thread
were able to so easily defeat restrictions meant to keep high powered lasers away from the general populace concerns me deeply.

This is something I intend to bring to the attention of my airline's safety department. It's unfortunate that the few fools who think it's funny to get drunk and lase an airliner with 150 people on board spoil it for the responsible...

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by Yogre

I'm going to comment once more on this thread, and then I'll leave y'all alone.

As higher power diodes become available, I hope these devices become heavily restricted/regulated. Here's why:

I'm an airline pilot. I personally have not been lased in flight but one of my friends has.....
....The fact that at least a couple of people on this thread
were able to so easily defeat restrictions meant to keep high powered lasers away from the general populace concerns me deeply.

This is something I intend to bring to the attention of my airline's safety department. It's unfortunate that the few fools who think it's funny to get drunk and lase an airliner with 150 people on board spoil it for the responsible...

While I understand your logic, the reality is that all the regulation in the world is not going to stop idiots from being idiots, nor is it going to put the products in question out of reach of said idiots and certainly not out of reach of those who do mean intentional harm.

[Yogre]

Originally Posted by BeanAnimal

While I understand your logic, the reality is that all the regulation in the world is not going to stop idiots from being idiots, nor is it going to put the products in question out of reach of said idiots and certainly not out of reach of those who do mean intentional harm.

Obviously it will not stop a determined attacker. Those sorts of people are called terrorists. Regulation can make it more difficult to obtain such items for the average idiot, and sometimes that is all it takes.

I stand by my desire for greater restriction on these weapons.

[Wolverine]

Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest

Closing this thread, and the like others will not result in lasers not being tried/used in aquaria. It would mean that important safety information will not be available. It's foolish to think that tank owners won't try using lasers, after all I and many others did so without the benefit of any education or safety standards.

If anything, showing the potential safety risks and repercussions in such a graphic manner (i.e. burned and bloodied retina) will dissuade many from even considering using a laser, believing the risk/reward ratio to be too steep (a now common response.)

This.
Closing these threads won't stop discussion of this; it would only stop discussion of it here. I think the best we can do is keep pushing the importance of safety in this situation. For me personally, as an ophthalmologist, I don't think the risk is worth it; aiptasia is annoying, but, IME, controllable with much safer methods. However, that doesn't mean others would weight the factors the same as mine.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by Yogre

Obviously it will not stop a determined attacker. Those sorts of people are called terrorists. Regulation can make it more difficult to obtain such items for the average idiot, and sometimes that is all it takes.

I stand by my desire for greater restriction on these weapons.

In reality, most folks who purchase a laser strong enough to blind a jet driver, and then engage in the act of pointing that laser at said jet, are doing so with full understanding of the possible consequences. I highly doubt that there are mamy cases of the drunken nitwits buying high power lasers and pointing them at aircraft.

While it is possible that some incidents that involve high power lasers and eye damage to polits could be the act of fools who mean no harm, I would venture to say that most lasings involving high power devices are intentional acts at the hands of people who know exactly what they are doing and whos intentions would not be thwarted by any law.

I would venture to say that most incidents are the act of fools pointing low power laser pointers at aircraft becuase they are simply clueless.

As for the act of using these things to scorch aiptasia... I think the risk far outweighs the benefit, but if somebody wants to burn their eyeballs out (thus earning themselves a Darwin award), then they have that right.

[Sk8r]

I'll stick with pep shrimp, which, if you get a selection of juvies, are pretty good; and which don't exit your tank and take out Fido.

[Wrench]

I got my laser today and it works like a champ.

Glasses, check.
Wifey out of the room, check.
Dog out of the room, check.
Dozens of dead mojanos, check.

No more Joes Juice, mixing up kalk paste or taking rocks out to cook them with a blow torch. This is a great method of pest removal but must be done responsibly.