no growth and pastel color

[daveonbass]

Ok now guys. Everyone says to make slow changes with sps. Plus I just got some new frags from franklypre, thanks bro.

So to recap. I have paleing corals and slow to no growth. Not browing, except a red planet that has been brown and not growing for a year...so nothing new there

I have reduced the photo period by two hours on both the lights switches.

I have reduced my dosing by half and am doing a routine dose now. Things seem stable now.

I have stated feeding oyster feast and aminos, the oysters I feed twice a day after the lights go out, and before they come on (actually easy for me cause I work a night shift job).

Other things to note that happened before this thread...4 out of 6 bulbs are new, all blue+. I'm down to 3 fish where once I had 13. The temp is stable again after a chiller pump broke. And biopellets have been successfully running for the past year. (N and P are low, bit cyanide is hard to eradicate)

Even other things I need to do, albeit slowly. Get two more bulbs; I can't decide on purple+, blue+, or coral+...or what combo of the two. I want to add more fish again. Wanting a melanurus wrasse. I need to recharge my DI resin to keep the water pure. And yes a WC is in the works for next week though I haven't decided how big of one.

I lost an echinata frag that bleached out in a hurry after getting it. Is that a low light frag? Cause its the second one I've lost on my frag rack...and man it bleached fast.

Growth of my birdsnest colonies is great...still very fast and healthy.

Color has stopped receding so far but has not come back very rich...though on mh monti caps I can see the new growth is darker in color. (richer)

Montis are also showing some growth...but my acro species are still stunted.

LPS corals are "ok" except my chalices which are recovering from severe bleaching. Keep in mind, a lot of this trouble started when I began to replace my bulbs. :/

[Vannpytt]

Corals "eat" continuously when food is available. Without it, the ~20% energy budget they need from feeding/predating, makes them unable to continue photosynthesis properly, and the coral will in addition be starved from stronger light and not receive energy from anywhere will not allow them to restore themselves, only survive at best.

Remember, while the C N P is very low detectable in the ocean, the amount of organisms in a liter of water is far greater than we can ever have in our tanks. Hence, you can never overfeed in terms of what is eaten, you can however accumulate N & P. This is what you worry about, not the food itself.

Question I ask myself since I had the same problem as you up until a few weeks ago, do you feed in regard to your filtration or in regard to your top livestock (fish)? If you have no measurable N or P, you won't do any wrong in bringing your nutrients up, especially coral food which can never be too much, but rather if there is no utilization of it, will accumulate, and this is about the same as your concern with everything else. Overdoing or under doing is both wrong in equal terms when it comes to filtration.

[madkeenreefer]

Dave, I also am in a simular position with my tank and find your thread helpful.

Vannpytt makes some good points in regards import /exports volumes of nutrients I also find helpful.

Originally Posted by daveonbass

I also dose the calcium and alk during the day...I assume that is ok as well.

thanks in advance for any more help.

As for the cal & Alk I belive that the better time to dose is during the night to aid in the nightly PH drops.

[daveonbass]

Haha, yeah I just read that on another thread and just started dosing alk at night, cal I just dose whenever.

[daveonbass]

also...the reason I bring up my N and P levels...is because I got them there by using Biopellets. This is a determining factor becasue the resoning behind the Biopellets is that the bacteria that consume the C, N, and P are suppoed to be slothed off and what is not skimmed out immediately is then free floating in the water and can be consumed by the corals. (in my case I think it's consumed by the cyno)

SO...the point here is that again I want to take the feeding slowly so as not to OVER feed too quickly and cause a mini tank crash. I want to make sure the the bacteria are not so plentiful and that they are feeding my cyno...and by adding MORE food I just get worse cyno.

Also I want to do this all one step at a time. I really do appreciate everyones input and suggestions...but I just refuse to do them all at once...other wise I will not know what I did that fixed things. Another point is that I don't think it's just one thing. so I'm trying a few that seem (intuitively) to be the culprits. So far from my own experience...and knowledge of what I have and havent been slacking off on lately...I'm starting with lower light on the tank, more food, and regulat dosing for stability. Those have been my weak points lately. If those do nothing in a month or two, then I may considder changing something else that's major, like removing the Biopellets, Feeding MORE...more fish...etc.

Again I will keep everyone posted...but please be patient with me...I don't want to rush/shock anthing that I DO still have in the tank. so for not it's baby steps.

[sahin]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

also...the reason I bring up my N and P levels...is because I got them there by using Biopellets. This is a determining factor becasue the resoning behind the Biopellets is that the bacteria that consume the C, N, and P are suppoed to be slothed off and what is not skimmed out immediately is then free floating in the water and can be consumed by the corals. (in my case I think it's consumed by the cyno)

SO...the point here is that again I want to take the feeding slowly so as not to OVER feed too quickly and cause a mini tank crash. I want to make sure the the bacteria are not so plentiful and that they are feeding my cyno...and by adding MORE food I just get worse cyno.

Also I want to do this all one step at a time. I really do appreciate everyones input and suggestions...but I just refuse to do them all at once...other wise I will not know what I did that fixed things. Another point is that I don't think it's just one thing. so I'm trying a few that seem (intuitively) to be the culprits. So far from my own experience...and knowledge of what I have and havent been slacking off on lately...I'm starting with lower light on the tank, more food, and regulat dosing for stability. Those have been my weak points lately. If those do nothing in a month or two, then I may considder changing something else that's major, like removing the Biopellets, Feeding MORE...more fish...etc.

Again I will keep everyone posted...but please be patient with me...I don't want to rush/shock anthing that I DO still have in the tank. so for not it's baby steps.

Dave, you are absolutely correct in changing one ONE thing at a time. In a situation like this, where you ask for advice in a thread, you will get many different opinions as to what the cause is; and you are doing the right thing by following one aspect at a time. If whatever you first try doesnt help, then so be it, but at least its one thing that is then eliminated as a possible cause and you can confidently move onto the next issue to try.

Keep us updated my friend.

[daveonbass]

Yeah I have done that in the past and did like 5 things to try and beat hair algae in an older tank...I finally got rid of it all...but don't know what did it...haha. It was surely a combo of all 5 things...but I wish I had done it one at a time.

this time though I have SPS and they ARE proving to be more sensitive so I am going a little slower...3 things at a time. :P

[Big E]

One thing I would suggest is that you keep a journal. It would help you keep track of things and be able to reference it in the future.

For example, what prompted the use of the bio pellets & how they affected your corals over time & maybe other changes that have happend that may have caused the situation you're in.

[mos90]

im not sure if this was mentioned but i saw your par #'s. those lights are strong. granted im not running t'5s im running AI leds but if i try to get par numbers that high i would fry most of my corals in my tank. i shoot for 100 on the sand and that gives me about 250-300 towards the upper part of the tank .

[franklypre]

This thread needs some closeups, more pics please.

[Reefoholicc]

I have been experiencing very similar issues with my SPS after I switched to a AI SOL Blue fixture. My ORA Red Planet became a shade of pastel, light pink. Almost all my SPS lost color and paled up. I am still trying to figure out the reason for all this.

Before LEDs I had a T5 and MH combo. My SPS were responding very well to this combo. Sometimes I think I should have never changed to LEDs.

After several months now, my SPS is starting to color up again. When I say "color up" I don't mean anything like vibrant colors and stuff. Only the tips and new growth is coloring up. In addition to loss of color, I observed that growth slowed down a lot too.

I feed my SPS Oyster Feast and Reef Chili now a days. I am eagerly following this thread in the mean time.

[daveonbass]

Originally Posted by Big E

One thing I would suggest is that you keep a journal. It would help you keep track of things and be able to reference it in the future.

For example, what prompted the use of the bio pellets & how they affected your corals over time & maybe other changes that have happend that may have caused the situation you're in.

I do keep a journal...sadly the issues I'm having are from lack of money to do anything in the tank and laziness.

Nothing prompted the use of biopellets per say. I had WAY HIGH NO3 levels, and the new pellets seems like a interesting alternative to getting rid of the N and P (had none, low P was a huge issue for me) and still providing food for the corals, all while being able to handle a larger fish load. For a while things were great. I got rid of the N, and P stayed undetectable. The corals grew and colors were always good. But again no money to invest into the tank for a while has hurt it hard. Now I'm starting to finally be able to correct it one thing at a time. So I'm keeping my fingers cross...and being patient.

Originally Posted by mos90

im not sure if this was mentioned but i saw your par #'s. those lights are strong. granted im not running t'5s im running AI leds but if i try to get par numbers that high i would fry most of my corals in my tank. i shoot for 100 on the sand and that gives me about 250-300 towards the upper part of the tank .

Those were not my PAR numbers...sadly I do not own a PAR meter (again, I can't afford one). Though between me and franklypre, I'm bound and determined to get one. Most people say that once you get one you only use it a few times...but light is so important to the hobby that I'm sure I would use it to check the tank on a monthly basis just to check the bulb life. So it's in the works. But again those are not my numbers...but it's a similar fixture and can show that the ATI PM puts out a lot of light...so when I say that my lights MUST be 14" or more above my water...I mean it.

Originally Posted by franklypre

This thread needs some closeups, more pics please.

Pics of what...there's very little to see...plus I don't have a photo program to "post" adjust the photos to give an accurate representation of what the tank really looks like. As far as needing close ups...there are no "bugs" on the corals...I am grateful for that bit of good fortune.

Originally Posted by Reefoholicc

I have been experiencing very similar issues with my SPS after I switched to a AI SOL Blue fixture. My ORA Red Planet became a shade of pastel, light pink. Almost all my SPS lost color and paled up. I am still trying to figure out the reason for all this.

Before LEDs I had a T5 and MH combo. My SPS were responding very well to this combo. Sometimes I think I should have never changed to LEDs.

After several months now, my SPS is starting to color up again. When I say "color up" I don't mean anything like vibrant colors and stuff. Only the tips and new growth is coloring up. In addition to loss of color, I observed that growth slowed down a lot too.

I feed my SPS Oyster Feast and Reef Chili now a days. I am eagerly following this thread in the mean time.

I'm glad that other people are gaining from my issues as well...I didn't think anyone would pay this much attention to yet another "no color, no growth" thread. My RP never grew or colored up much...I'm thinking of just getting another one and starting over with it. haha

Yes my corals too are starting to color back up on the new growth...and sadly I really think that much of my dismay is from when I swapped out a Purple+ bulb for an aquablue special. Even my fish are swimming low and in shaded areas and not coming out much when the ABS bulb is on...it's that bad.

Hopefully a new set of bulbs will help me out a little bit. The food hasnt hurt anything yet...but I think we all suspected that would b the case...starved corals. Again I have been too bust to test...maybe tonight. I want to post my numbers again. Just bare with me.

[franklypre]

I wanted closeups to see polyp extension, I checked for bugs when I was over there. I wanted to see if there was any improvement. I know your gonna say it takes time but you could easily come over today and see more color than you did a week ago. Again I have plenty of salt, if you would like a bag let me know, WC don't hurt anything.

[daveonbass]

Well everything I got from you has great PE. So no worries there. It's just the old "damaged" colonies that still don't come out. I think things are on the mend...

[daveonbass]

new pics and a new sponge/tunicate?

full tank


another pic of full tank


Red planet not doing anything, has looked like this for a year through the good times too.


my lat two chalices...an aussie blood red that is just now getting fully red again after bleaching and receeding tissue, and a type of watermelon from Franklypre that is purple with yellow eyes and a green rim...just now starting to get a little bit of color back.


purple digi, unknown brown w/white polyps, and a green that has never had polyps.


a frag from my mother colony of rainbow montipora


Setosa frag, and rainbow monti mother colony in from (blurry)

[daveonbass]

frag rack with a forest fire digi, and some unknown frags from Franklypre (help me out buddy)


birdsnest that got pale and has gotten a little more color, but has always had great PE


unknown acro, maybe an ORA borealis? notice the strange growth at it's base


unknown green (was blueish at one time, went solid green when tank went bad). also a pink with teal green polyps millie (havent seen polyps in about a year, got with the RP) Spongodes on the left, lost all the green and is just slowly growing as a white mess. and finally at the bottom of the pic is an older colony of acro that is uaually solid green, but you can see how pale it has gotten...seems to be doing better but like the spongodes the new growth is all white/pale green.


red cap...notice teh new growth is a darker red...though the new growth is uneven.


close up of red cap


tubbs ponape birdsnest that has never been effected by anything...just grows and grows.


closes up of PE on tubbs birdsnest

[daveonbass]

one of the few acros that I feel is actually looking just fine...but growing very slowly.


ok, this is the weird stuff that I have never seen in my tank before...and this rock it's on I've had for like 7 years and never had growth like this on it...so I wonder what the heck it could be. the base of them looks like a little tunicate that has a tail growing strait up...they are all the same size, and the "tail" is all the same length...they are kinda cute, but I worry that they might take over and choke something out. any ideas what this is?
BTW this is the FIRST day i haveever noticed them...and since I have been checking my tank daily since I started this thread...it's kinda weird that hey just POPED UP out of no where.


with flash

[daveonbass]

sorry for the pic quality...it was all done with my HTC EVO phone. the lens is a little foggy. also I only have 4 bulbs on...3 Blue+ and 1 Purple+.

Yes, Today I finally replaced the ATI aquablue special with my old ATI purple+. the tank has a less washed out look to it already. so I have decided to NOT order the new ATI Coral+ bulb due to many people saying that it WILL BE brighter white than the Purple+. So I will be getting a new purple+ and a new blue+ to finally have all new bulbs in the fixture. I will be leaving the light 14" high for now. Also I will save the new Blue+ for a spare and I want to put 2 Purple+ bulbs in the dawn/dusk slots to see if I like the look of 4 b+ and 2p+. If it's too white, or just not very good looking them I will go back to 1 p+. so far that's all the updating I have today.

[franklypre]

I really don't know what coral I gave you, I know one was a prostrata, there was a milli, the rest I don't remember. On a side note I quit feeding for a few days and added a double dose of phosgaurd, and 2 new purigen bags just to see what happened. Sure enough the coral lightened up quite a bit, first time I have tested and actually got 0s on phos and ammonia. I seriously couldn't believe how fast it happened, I fed heavily and removed the phosgaurd, seems to be a little better today. Even the wife noticed the difference, she thought it was a good thing. Your tank does look better, are you thinking it is the fuel or just the fact that there are nutrients it your tank again?

[daveonbass]

Not the fuel...not so much. I think it has more to do with the oyster feast. And MOST to do with the lights being higher on for a shorter time. I only dose fuel twice a week.

[daveonbass]

OK...quick update.

Everything seems to be NOT losing anymore color...but my red monti cap is doing somethng weird. The new growth looks great, it's a deeper red color, and its easy to SEE the new growth cause the other colors are so much more pale. BUT the old growth is starting to show brown algae growth on some of the ridges on the plate. it's weird...it's not growing on the new parts...just the old stuff.

The strange sponge thingys are GONE...they literally popped up one day without me noticing, and have since moved on and are gone...there are only a few stragglers to be found a little bit lower ont he rock where they were growing.

My dosing is staying regular, but I'm already getting low on the Oyster feast food. that sucks cause its gonna be a while befoer I can get back to dallas to buy more. and shipping cold items is so expensive. drat.

The corals are showing a tiny bit more growth...but it's strange...it's mainly on the base of the frags. There is very little if any "upward" growth. My corals that are below a certain level are growing ok...like the birds nests...but the acros on the top rocks are only growing outwardly, and not up...so I wonder if it's STILL a matter of too much light. I'm thinking of cutting it down from all 6 bulbs being on (ever) to just 2 and 4. like 2-4-2 with the 2's being dawn and dusk...and the 4 being the main day. I really think that I could have this same tank with a 24" 4 bulb ATI PM....sucker is bright.

that's all for now...Nothing is getting "worse", so I will take that as a good thing...and I will continue to feed and tweek the lights so that I can hopfully so positive change in the next month or so.

thanks guys...hopfully a more positive update will follow soon.

[Nanighan]

Hi Dave, JMO on looking at your FTS you could get away with just water changes using a good quality salt such as RSCP. When my corals look stressed I stop all dosing for a few days or a week (I only dose kalk) and up my water changes. With your tank maybe 2 gallons a day would suffice.
Also keep an eye on your DSB. It might be holding lots of nutrients or toxic elements.

[daveonbass]

Yeah, I have a bunch of water setting up for some regular changes each week...but the fact that I hadn't been dosing properly, nor was I feeding much, add to that the brighter bulb I changed to, and it just got weird in there.

So now that its more stable in there, I gonna get to the WCs next.

[Reef Bass]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

OK...quick update.
The corals are showing a tiny bit more growth...but it's strange...it's mainly on the base of the frags. There is very little if any "upward" growth. My corals that are below a certain level are growing ok...like the birds nests...but the acros on the top rocks are only growing outwardly, and not up...so I wonder if it's STILL a matter of too much light. I'm thinking of cutting it down from all 6 bulbs being on (ever) to just 2 and 4. like 2-4-2 with the 2's being dawn and dusk...and the 4 being the main day. I really think that I could have this same tank with a 24" 4 bulb ATI PM....sucker is bright.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think you're rushing things. Your corals are beginning to encrust. That's terrific. They are showing you that they are growing again. Stop making changes! Do not change your lighting. Keep feeding, and you'll find that after they puddle for a bit, you will see vertical growth. Your biggest challenge is going to be giving your corals stability and the time they need to do their thing.

The human desire for instant gratification and immediate problem resolution cannot be satisfied with this hobby. Your corals are responding. Be patient.

[Vannpytt]

Originally Posted by Reef Bass

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think you're rushing things. Your corals are beginning to encrust. That's terrific. They are showing you that they are growing again. Stop making changes! Do not change your lighting. Keep feeding, and you'll find that after they puddle for a bit, you will see vertical growth. Your biggest challenge is going to be giving your corals stability and the time they need to do their thing.

The human desire for instant gratification and immediate problem resolution cannot be satisfied with this hobby. Your corals are responding. Be patient.

I 100% concur with this.

If you want to change anything, once the corals have stopped showing signs of stress, be that more food and watch your nutrients, if anything.