Help on Bio-balls

willyreef · 04/26/2006, 05:41 AM

I have a 54 Gal. corner tank. I have 60 LBS of LR. I still have the bio-balls in my wet/dry filter. There are 7 fish in my tank that has lots of soft corals. My nitrates are around 20ppm and I want to get them down. Would it help if I slowly removed all the Bio-balls from the filter? Then in the space that contained them put in some macroalgae. The space is about 10"x10"x10". Is that enough room? I know i would also need some type of light. The thing is I don't have a lot of room under the tank in the cabinet.
Any suggestions would be great!

Willyreef

mthedude · 04/26/2006, 10:18 AM

macro will always be a better option than bio balls but I doubt it will get your nitrate down to zero. I sort of have the same situation and started with live rocks and bio balls then got rid of the wet/dry and switched to a fuge, I have zero room under my tank and could only squeeze a 10 gal tank in there for my fuge, it works but it's far from ideal, bio balls are great for fowl tanks but for reef applications the live rock is the biggest biological filter. You could try filling the empty space will all sand to try do the DSB in a bucket idea that Anthony Calfo mentions on his forum and in his book.

Alaskan Reefer · 04/26/2006, 10:54 AM

With 7 fish in a 54, I'd be leery of banking on the LR to support the bioload. What kind of skimmer do you have? Removing the bioballs and replacing with macro (and a light) should reduce nitrates over time, but with this bioload I'd do it VERY slowly (2-3 bioballs per week) to give the LR a chance to build up enough bacteria to offset the loss. Test ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate all the way through of course.

DaRealDvs1 · 04/26/2006, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alaskan Reefer
but with this bioload I'd do it VERY slowly (2-3 bioballs per week) to give the LR a chance to build up enough bacteria to offset the loss. Test ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate all the way through of course.

Before converting to a full blown reef...this is how I did it.
Along with water changes every 2 weeks, my nitrates went to zero.

I would add more live rock in your system.

I would hope that those 7 fish are small, to be kept in a 54.

mthedude · 04/26/2006, 12:52 PM

I would over skim that tank with that many fish, get a skimmer rated for a 250 gallon tank and skim that sucker like crazy. Besides that remove the balls slowly over the period of a month or two.

socalreefer73 · 04/26/2006, 01:03 PM

My suggestion would be to use LR rubble in there as long as you didn't impede the flow too much and add more LR to your tank. I might also think about reducing the fish load (damsels?) and, if your fish are looking fat, reduce the amount of feeding.

IMO bio-ball's time has gone and went. Why use a product that can't harbor nitrate reducing bacteria in *any* situation when you can use something that does(LR)?

I don't know if I would overskim... if your skimmer breaks for a day or two, you could get yourself in trouble... Besides, why spend more money on things that are going to cost you more in the long run (more electricity usage) when good 'ole Mother nature and common sense can work just the same, if not better and with greater stability?

summary:
reduce bioballs and increase LR.
and/or
reduce fish pop.

What was that saying for salt? 1 inch of fish per 3 gallons of water max? And I think that was for FO/FOWLR...

TitansFan · 04/26/2006, 02:11 PM

What would be the difference in removing the bioballs and putting in liverock rubble instead? Both do the same thing correct by providing surface area for bacteria? I would think the big difference is water coverage. Are the bioballs totally submerged in water or is water trickling over it. This would be the difference in aerobic and anareobic bacterial waste breakdown. The bioballs in my opinion could function the same as liverock rubble if kept totally submerged problem is they float. Also both rubble and bioballs are going to trap detrius.

If keeping the bioballs I would be sure they stay underwater and do not aid in trapping detrius. The main thing I would do is more water changes and large skimmer. The true way to remove nitrates is to phsically remove them and dilute the remaining with fresh saltwater.

BigEd · 04/26/2006, 02:12 PM

I pulled mine out all at once and replaced with cured LR from my 125 so they were balanced so to speak.I bought a beautiful blue/green clam.he is growing like crazy and he keeps the nitrates lower..I have 10 fish in my 125.small none bigger than 3 inches with a ton of LR...4 anenomes(sp) lots of coral and a huge leather coral that is biiger than most peoples calf muscles..everything is growing fine if nitrates start getting high i use a nitrate sponge in the mesh bag for a few days than its good for several weeks.BigEdÃ‚Â®

socalreefer73 · 04/27/2006, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TitanFan
What would be the difference in removing the bioballs and putting in liverock rubble instead? Both do the same thing correct by providing surface area for bacteria?

Nope, they in fact do not do the same thing. The plastic that bioballs are made out of is not porous and so they do not harbor anaerobic bacteria. After thinking about this last night. LR rubble (small pieces) might not harbor anaerobic enough areas, but I'm no molocular biologist.. just a thought, but larger pieces should suffice. Bacteria that lives in the anaerobic/anoxic areas in the tank (low to no oxygen) break down N03 into nitrogen and oxygen and this completing the nitrate cycle to harmless components. I think I want to remember it's because the make oxygen to live aspirate with, but don't quote me on that.

mthedude · 04/27/2006, 02:00 PM

I tried LR Rubble in place of my bio balls when I went from FOWL to a Reef and the readings were almost the same as far as NO3 goes, it dropped obviously since the LR was in the tank but just exchanging LR Rubble for Bio Balls won't do that much unless there is ton of space which it doesn't sound like you have. The rubble would harbor some anarobic bacteria but not near as much as LR submerged in water. I still think you may want to try a DSB in that area, keep it un-lit and make sure the water passes over the top briskly. Check out the All Things Salty Forum for the DSB in a Bucket thread, I think that would give you the best bang for your buck with your limited space.

Alaskan Reefer · 04/27/2006, 03:49 PM

I think that if you leave LR in a trickle area (constant aeration), you're not going to get the same denitrifying effect. I could definitely be wrong here though.

04/26/2006, 05:41 AM	#1
willyreef Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Albany, N.Y. Posts: 94	Help on Bio-balls I have a 54 Gal. corner tank. I have 60 LBS of LR. I still have the bio-balls in my wet/dry filter. There are 7 fish in my tank that has lots of soft corals. My nitrates are around 20ppm and I want to get them down. Would it help if I slowly removed all the Bio-balls from the filter? Then in the space that contained them put in some macroalgae. The space is about 10"x10"x10". Is that enough room? I know i would also need some type of light. The thing is I don't have a lot of room under the tank in the cabinet. Any suggestions would be great! Willyreef

04/26/2006, 10:18 AM	#2
mthedude Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Des Moines, IA Posts: 549	macro will always be a better option than bio balls but I doubt it will get your nitrate down to zero. I sort of have the same situation and started with live rocks and bio balls then got rid of the wet/dry and switched to a fuge, I have zero room under my tank and could only squeeze a 10 gal tank in there for my fuge, it works but it's far from ideal, bio balls are great for fowl tanks but for reef applications the live rock is the biggest biological filter. You could try filling the empty space will all sand to try do the DSB in a bucket idea that Anthony Calfo mentions on his forum and in his book. __________________ You........Cake or Death? I'll have the cake please.... ....well we're outta cake! Current Tank Info: 55g Reef Tank, scooter blenny, tail spot blenny, cleaner shrimp, button polyps, fuzzy mushrooms, hammer coral, multi color zoos, 10 gal fuge, Octopus NW150

04/26/2006, 10:54 AM	#3
Alaskan Reefer Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 2,360	With 7 fish in a 54, I'd be leery of banking on the LR to support the bioload. What kind of skimmer do you have? Removing the bioballs and replacing with macro (and a light) should reduce nitrates over time, but with this bioload I'd do it VERY slowly (2-3 bioballs per week) to give the LR a chance to build up enough bacteria to offset the loss. Test ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate all the way through of course. __________________ Unattended children will be given double shot espresso and a free puppy. Current Tank Info: 125g FOWLR -- Conversion Back To SPS In Progress

04/26/2006, 12:52 PM	#5
mthedude Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Des Moines, IA Posts: 549	I would over skim that tank with that many fish, get a skimmer rated for a 250 gallon tank and skim that sucker like crazy. Besides that remove the balls slowly over the period of a month or two. __________________ You........Cake or Death? I'll have the cake please.... ....well we're outta cake! Current Tank Info: 55g Reef Tank, scooter blenny, tail spot blenny, cleaner shrimp, button polyps, fuzzy mushrooms, hammer coral, multi color zoos, 10 gal fuge, Octopus NW150

04/26/2006, 02:12 PM	#8
BigEd Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Stafford Va Posts: 33	I pulled mine out all at once and replaced with cured LR from my 125 so they were balanced so to speak.I bought a beautiful blue/green clam.he is growing like crazy and he keeps the nitrates lower..I have 10 fish in my 125.small none bigger than 3 inches with a ton of LR...4 anenomes(sp) lots of coral and a huge leather coral that is biiger than most peoples calf muscles..everything is growing fine if nitrates start getting high i use a nitrate sponge in the mesh bag for a few days than its good for several weeks.BigEdÃ‚Â® __________________ Help develop a Childs mind with positive comments & encouragements...Negativity just leaves them Under Developed® Current Tank Info: 125g reef , ton of inverts

04/26/2006, 01:03 PM	#6
socalreefer73 Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: San Diego, Ca. Posts: 821	My suggestion would be to use LR rubble in there as long as you didn't impede the flow too much and add more LR to your tank. I might also think about reducing the fish load (damsels?) and, if your fish are looking fat, reduce the amount of feeding. IMO bio-ball's time has gone and went. Why use a product that can't harbor nitrate reducing bacteria in any situation when you can use something that does(LR)? I don't know if I would overskim... if your skimmer breaks for a day or two, you could get yourself in trouble... Besides, why spend more money on things that are going to cost you more in the long run (more electricity usage) when good 'ole Mother nature and common sense can work just the same, if not better and with greater stability? summary: reduce bioballs and increase LR. and/or reduce fish pop. What was that saying for salt? 1 inch of fish per 3 gallons of water max? And I think that was for FO/FOWLR...

04/26/2006, 02:11 PM	#7
TitansFan Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Spring Hill, TN Posts: 1,364	What would be the difference in removing the bioballs and putting in liverock rubble instead? Both do the same thing correct by providing surface area for bacteria? I would think the big difference is water coverage. Are the bioballs totally submerged in water or is water trickling over it. This would be the difference in aerobic and anareobic bacterial waste breakdown. The bioballs in my opinion could function the same as liverock rubble if kept totally submerged problem is they float. Also both rubble and bioballs are going to trap detrius. If keeping the bioballs I would be sure they stay underwater and do not aid in trapping detrius. The main thing I would do is more water changes and large skimmer. The true way to remove nitrates is to phsically remove them and dilute the remaining with fresh saltwater.

04/27/2006, 02:00 PM	#10
mthedude Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Des Moines, IA Posts: 549	I tried LR Rubble in place of my bio balls when I went from FOWL to a Reef and the readings were almost the same as far as NO3 goes, it dropped obviously since the LR was in the tank but just exchanging LR Rubble for Bio Balls won't do that much unless there is ton of space which it doesn't sound like you have. The rubble would harbor some anarobic bacteria but not near as much as LR submerged in water. I still think you may want to try a DSB in that area, keep it un-lit and make sure the water passes over the top briskly. Check out the All Things Salty Forum for the DSB in a Bucket thread, I think that would give you the best bang for your buck with your limited space. __________________ You........Cake or Death? I'll have the cake please.... ....well we're outta cake! Current Tank Info: 55g Reef Tank, scooter blenny, tail spot blenny, cleaner shrimp, button polyps, fuzzy mushrooms, hammer coral, multi color zoos, 10 gal fuge, Octopus NW150

04/27/2006, 03:49 PM	#11
Alaskan Reefer Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 2,360	I think that if you leave LR in a trickle area (constant aeration), you're not going to get the same denitrifying effect. I could definitely be wrong here though. __________________ Unattended children will be given double shot espresso and a free puppy. Current Tank Info: 125g FOWLR -- Conversion Back To SPS In Progress