Aggression or Love?

Kinetic · 11/20/2017, 05:08 PM

Backstory:
I introduced a group of clowns to my tank. The aggression was low, but as soon as I added an H. Magnifica, the largest of the smallest males started becoming very aggressive.

The clowns were:
Bonded pair of ocellaris (1.5" x 1.25")
5x 1" ocellaris

The bonded pair kept all the small clowns in check, but once the Magnifica was introduced, they all went into it. Unfortunately, the bonded pair kicked everyone out and claimed it for themselves. The bonded pair then no longer really cared about the small males. This lead to the largest of the small males aggressively attacking the others.

I removed the aggressive one, then the next largest took up the role of aggressor. And so on. Now I have 2 small males, and yes, I believe the smallest one (funnily) is now becoming aggressive. I isolated the one that was getting picked on this time.

The smallest one was always the one who wanted to most attention from the bonded pair. He always went up to them and did a dance, snuck into the magnifica whenever he could, and never gave up. The one I've now isolated gave up early, and would stay as far in the top corner of the tank as possible, trying to disappear into the background. These last two small guys got along well, until they were the last two small ones left. I was watching the smallest (mocha ocellaris) chase this one around non-stop. He would chase, but then do the dance, over and over. It wasn't exactly aggression, but I decided to isolate the one getting picked on (fancy white extreme ocellaris).

So the fancy white extreme is now in the isolation box. He gets to eat all the food he wants without getting chased, and seems to be fine. The mocha ocellaris WILL NOT LEAVE HIS SIDE. He has stayed next to the box for 3 days, never leaving his side. I can't tell if it's because he wants to kill the fancy white really badly as his sole purpose in life, or just really likes him.

I'm worried that if I release the fancy white, he's going to get destroyed. What do you think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvM8PRh23mQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iqbb0tN_Bk

One idea was to put the mocha in the box too to see what would happen. The idea being, if the fighting was bad, I could just remove one easily and quickly (without a tank chase).

Small Heavens · 11/21/2017, 08:04 AM

Uh, I am sorry to hear that, also they are meeting mouth-to-mouth, even through the isolation box.

They will fight then, mouth to mouth means no play, real fight until one subcomes or leaves.

It is trying to drive the last immature male away, so this will continue until it dies or leave the territory.

If you keep the three together, they might become a family all three of them since the smallest immature male was already in the process of trying to sweet-talk the dominant female but I don't think you can introduce more to the group now.

Kinetic · 11/21/2017, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Small Heavens

Uh, I am sorry to hear that, also they are meeting mouth-to-mouth, even through the isolation box.

They will fight then, mouth to mouth means no play, real fight until one subcomes or leaves.

It is trying to drive the last immature male away, so this will continue until it dies or leave the territory.

If you keep the three together, they might become a family all three of them since the smallest immature male was already in the process of trying to sweet-talk the dominant female but I don't think you can introduce more to the group now.

Thanks for the insight. Today the mocha is dancing constantly for the fancy white. I wonder if the isolation box has helped them get along a bit better. The mocha still will not leave the fancy white's side. Follows it on the outside of the breeder box no matter what. All. Day. Long. and night too. So crazy.

Kinetic · 11/23/2017, 03:25 AM

Day 4 of isolation, the mocha still will NOT leave the side of the fancy white extreme. He went from open mouthed aggression to just doing dances the last 2 days. I don't know if they were bonding or the mocha just has uncontrollable rage. So what to do? I didn't know if they liked each other or hated each other, so I just put the mocha in the box too to see what would happen.

For the first 10 minutes, they stuck together like they were paired up. Dancing for one another, the mocha following the fancy wherever he went closely (though the box is pretty small). That was a good sign. Almost like they paired up. Then I came back a bit later, and they were absolutely fighting. Chasing, open mouth head butting, probably trying to bite each other as well. I don't know if it was because of the small box, or they just hate each others guts. Not sure why it started off totally fine and then got into a brawl.

Anyway, I decided to keep the mocha in the isolation box and let the fancy white out. Poor guy was in jail for 4 days. But I think he might have actually liked it. Let's see how the mocha does in there. If he hates it, I'll swap them again and then decide what to do next...

Video of them kind of being OK with each other. I did not take time to video the full on fight. I quickly broke that one up:

https://youtu.be/istPVzlAeKM

Small Heavens · 11/24/2017, 05:51 AM

These fishes are very smart, I followed a display made by two ocean caught clowns, where the dominant female was very agitated over her reflection.

While the dominant was over at a place she liked to hunt, she had put her male to guard their anemone, from this horrible reflection of a competing pair of clownfish, in a similar reflection of the anemone.

While the male was there, he began moving up and down slowly, then back and forth while looking at the reflection fishes.

He looked back, turning around and looking at the female, and then turned around again, and looked at the reflection.

The next time the female returned to her anemone and saw the reflection female return to her anemone as well, she of course swam right up to the reflection and started mouth-to-mouth with it. The male came to her side, and i don't know HOW he did it, but he swam around her, pulled her away from the reflection and since that day, they both completely ignored the reflections around them.

I think you should try to see if you can get any of the two to be accepted by the bonded pair and get rid of the other one.

I have heard one parent tell how their children came running and crying because one clown had dragged another clown into its anemone and it was eaten. That person had two separate anemones and two groups of clownfish. The parent saw the same thing happen again shortly after, the biggest clown in the tabk, grabbing the competition by the tail, and drag it into the anemone to be eaten. I haven't been in that kind of situation myself, but advice online say that once they start fighting, they will continue till death or being separated.

Fishes are really fishy with fighting, beautiful, but terribly brutal.

Kinetic · 11/24/2017, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Small Heavens

These fishes are very smart, I followed a display made by two ocean caught clowns, where the dominant female was very agitated over her reflection.

While the dominant was over at a place she liked to hunt, she had put her male to guard their anemone, from this horrible reflection of a competing pair of clownfish, in a similar reflection of the anemone.

While the male was there, he began moving up and down slowly, then back and forth while looking at the reflection fishes.

He looked back, turning around and looking at the female, and then turned around again, and looked at the reflection.

The next time the female returned to her anemone and saw the reflection female return to her anemone as well, she of course swam right up to the reflection and started mouth-to-mouth with it. The male came to her side, and i don't know HOW he did it, but he swam around her, pulled her away from the reflection and since that day, they both completely ignored the reflections around them.

I think you should try to see if you can get any of the two to be accepted by the bonded pair and get rid of the other one.

I have heard one parent tell how their children came running and crying because one clown had dragged another clown into its anemone and it was eaten. That person had two separate anemones and two groups of clownfish. The parent saw the same thing happen again shortly after, the biggest clown in the tabk, grabbing the competition by the tail, and drag it into the anemone to be eaten. I haven't been in that kind of situation myself, but advice online say that once they start fighting, they will continue till death or being separated.

Fishes are really fishy with fighting, beautiful, but terribly brutal.

Thank you. Yes, I don't think the pair actually cares who else is in the tank, as long as they don't get in their anemone. They seem to like to check in with the others, but otherwise don't care much.

I'll probably remove one and just keep three. As long as the pair doesn't start bothering the third, that should work out. But the smallest two are not going to stop fighting. I put one back in the isolation box.

JustAClownFish · 11/30/2017, 03:10 PM

I told you it's not going to work out in a small tank. If the clowns are tank raised and are all from the same clutch it might work in a VERY big tank. As you said the pair protects the anemone and checks in on the rest. That basically means ' I'm just making sure you're staying out of my territory bro!!!' Let's say you had an 800g tank with a couple BIG anemones, then they all could form pairs and host each their own anemone within their own territory. Why don't you put the other one in the breeder box? If they try killing each other you know it's not love.

11/20/2017, 05:08 PM	#1
Kinetic Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 7,230	Aggression or Love? Backstory: I introduced a group of clowns to my tank. The aggression was low, but as soon as I added an H. Magnifica, the largest of the smallest males started becoming very aggressive. The clowns were: Bonded pair of ocellaris (1.5" x 1.25") 5x 1" ocellaris The bonded pair kept all the small clowns in check, but once the Magnifica was introduced, they all went into it. Unfortunately, the bonded pair kicked everyone out and claimed it for themselves. The bonded pair then no longer really cared about the small males. This lead to the largest of the small males aggressively attacking the others. I removed the aggressive one, then the next largest took up the role of aggressor. And so on. Now I have 2 small males, and yes, I believe the smallest one (funnily) is now becoming aggressive. I isolated the one that was getting picked on this time. The smallest one was always the one who wanted to most attention from the bonded pair. He always went up to them and did a dance, snuck into the magnifica whenever he could, and never gave up. The one I've now isolated gave up early, and would stay as far in the top corner of the tank as possible, trying to disappear into the background. These last two small guys got along well, until they were the last two small ones left. I was watching the smallest (mocha ocellaris) chase this one around non-stop. He would chase, but then do the dance, over and over. It wasn't exactly aggression, but I decided to isolate the one getting picked on (fancy white extreme ocellaris). So the fancy white extreme is now in the isolation box. He gets to eat all the food he wants without getting chased, and seems to be fine. The mocha ocellaris WILL NOT LEAVE HIS SIDE. He has stayed next to the box for 3 days, never leaving his side. I can't tell if it's because he wants to kill the fancy white really badly as his sole purpose in life, or just really likes him. I'm worried that if I release the fancy white, he's going to get destroyed. What do you think? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvM8PRh23mQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iqbb0tN_Bk One idea was to put the mocha in the box too to see what would happen. The idea being, if the fighting was bad, I could just remove one easily and quickly (without a tank chase).

11/21/2017, 08:04 AM	#2
Small Heavens In Memoriam Join Date: Sep 2017 Posts: 246	Uh, I am sorry to hear that, also they are meeting mouth-to-mouth, even through the isolation box. They will fight then, mouth to mouth means no play, real fight until one subcomes or leaves. It is trying to drive the last immature male away, so this will continue until it dies or leave the territory. If you keep the three together, they might become a family all three of them since the smallest immature male was already in the process of trying to sweet-talk the dominant female but I don't think you can introduce more to the group now.

11/23/2017, 03:25 AM	#4
Kinetic Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 7,230	Day 4 of isolation, the mocha still will NOT leave the side of the fancy white extreme. He went from open mouthed aggression to just doing dances the last 2 days. I don't know if they were bonding or the mocha just has uncontrollable rage. So what to do? I didn't know if they liked each other or hated each other, so I just put the mocha in the box too to see what would happen. For the first 10 minutes, they stuck together like they were paired up. Dancing for one another, the mocha following the fancy wherever he went closely (though the box is pretty small). That was a good sign. Almost like they paired up. Then I came back a bit later, and they were absolutely fighting. Chasing, open mouth head butting, probably trying to bite each other as well. I don't know if it was because of the small box, or they just hate each others guts. Not sure why it started off totally fine and then got into a brawl. Anyway, I decided to keep the mocha in the isolation box and let the fancy white out. Poor guy was in jail for 4 days. But I think he might have actually liked it. Let's see how the mocha does in there. If he hates it, I'll swap them again and then decide what to do next... Video of them kind of being OK with each other. I did not take time to video the full on fight. I quickly broke that one up: https://youtu.be/istPVzlAeKM

11/24/2017, 05:51 AM	#5
Small Heavens In Memoriam Join Date: Sep 2017 Posts: 246	These fishes are very smart, I followed a display made by two ocean caught clowns, where the dominant female was very agitated over her reflection. While the dominant was over at a place she liked to hunt, she had put her male to guard their anemone, from this horrible reflection of a competing pair of clownfish, in a similar reflection of the anemone. While the male was there, he began moving up and down slowly, then back and forth while looking at the reflection fishes. He looked back, turning around and looking at the female, and then turned around again, and looked at the reflection. The next time the female returned to her anemone and saw the reflection female return to her anemone as well, she of course swam right up to the reflection and started mouth-to-mouth with it. The male came to her side, and i don't know HOW he did it, but he swam around her, pulled her away from the reflection and since that day, they both completely ignored the reflections around them. I think you should try to see if you can get any of the two to be accepted by the bonded pair and get rid of the other one. I have heard one parent tell how their children came running and crying because one clown had dragged another clown into its anemone and it was eaten. That person had two separate anemones and two groups of clownfish. The parent saw the same thing happen again shortly after, the biggest clown in the tabk, grabbing the competition by the tail, and drag it into the anemone to be eaten. I haven't been in that kind of situation myself, but advice online say that once they start fighting, they will continue till death or being separated. Fishes are really fishy with fighting, beautiful, but terribly brutal.

11/30/2017, 03:10 PM	#7
JustAClownFish Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: California Posts: 226	I told you it's not going to work out in a small tank. If the clowns are tank raised and are all from the same clutch it might work in a VERY big tank. As you said the pair protects the anemone and checks in on the rest. That basically means ' I'm just making sure you're staying out of my territory bro!!!' Let's say you had an 800g tank with a couple BIG anemones, then they all could form pairs and host each their own anemone within their own territory. Why don't you put the other one in the breeder box? If they try killing each other you know it's not love.