Bubble Scrubbing and the Red Bug Scourge - Page 2

Bpb · 04/19/2018, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knighthawk

I could see salt creep in the sump an issue if you are pumping in more air than the return pump can handle. I have mine turned down so all you see is a slight bubble coming up in the sump. Still produces plenty of bubbles in the display tank.

Another issue I run into from time to time is my bean animal drain sucking air. The bubbles are cutting back on the amount of flow the return pump is pushing and causing the tuning of the gate valve to be incorrect. Haven't figured out how to correct this besides really turning down the air pump.

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Might be an eye sore but have you considered putting the airstone inside the display under a powerhead instead? I run a durso so it’s not a problem but on the next tank I’ll run a herbie and probably just zip tie the airline to the wire on a powerhead and let the airstone produce bubbles in the display.

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Dsekula · 04/19/2018, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bpb

Might be an eye sore but have you considered putting the airstone inside the display under a powerhead instead? I run a durso so it’s not a problem but on the next tank I’ll run a herbie and probably just zip tie the airline to the wire on a powerhead and let the airstone produce bubbles in the display.

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If your not getting fresh air anyway, couldn't you just leave a powehead partially out of the water? Just put it on a timer?

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Bpb · 04/19/2018, 06:36 PM

You could. I don’t like that idea for my own tank though. It would cut down massively on flow. I shoot for 50-100x tank volume turnover per hour

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Dsekula · 04/19/2018, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bpb

You could. I don’t like that idea for my own tank though. It would cut down massively on flow. I shoot for 50-100x tank volume turnover per hour

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Depends on how you do it

Since I'm in planning stages of a build it's something to consider. I'd do the same normal powerheads, then a set of "air powerheads" on a timer. So if your still using the same amount to begin with it wouldn't mess with flow. Hopefully I articulated that correctly and it makes sense lol.

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Bpb · 04/19/2018, 06:52 PM

You certainly could. That’s a much more expensive, noisy, and unsightly way though to use an entire additional powerhead. I like the airstone and air pump that can be fairly well hidden out of site
And are noiseless

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fijisrfr · 04/19/2018, 06:52 PM

Air stone in front of power head doesn’t achieve the same results
1. The reason for putting the air stone in front of the return is so the bubbles are sucked into the pump then get all chopped up into micro bubbles like the skimmer produces
2. I would think that putting it in front or below Power head won’t chop up the bubbles the same way the return pump would.
3. Basically, you are turning the tank into a giant skimmer, dissolved organic coated bubbles make their way to the sump/skimmer for removal, tank has never looked better.
However, I can’t speak to the usefulness in getting rid of red bugs.

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Bpb · 04/19/2018, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fijisrfr

Air stone in front of power head doesn’t achieve the same results
1. The reason for putting the air stone in front of the return is so the bubbles are sucked into the pump then get all chopped up into micro bubbles like the skimmer produces
2. I would think that putting it in front or below Power head won’t chop up the bubbles the same way the return pump would.
3. Basically, you are turning the tank into a giant skimmer, dissolved organic coated bubbles make their way to the sump/skimmer for removal, tank has never looked better.
However, I can’t speak to the usefulness in getting rid of red bugs.

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What if your powerheads have greater flow than your return pump does though

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fijisrfr · 04/19/2018, 07:07 PM

The point is that I don’t think that a power head will chop the bubbles as fine as the return pump.

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Bpb · 04/19/2018, 07:12 PM

I know but it seems to me that the faster spinning propeller/impeller would chop smaller bubbles would it not?

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reefmutt · 04/19/2018, 07:28 PM

I would bet the faster the impeller/propeller is spinning the better..
But just by using a good wooden air stone, the bubbles will aprobably fine enough..
I might do an experiment and put a wooden air stone under my gyre..

Dsekula · 04/21/2018, 08:46 AM

I did an expariment yesterday to see how my tank inhabitants would react to bubbles . Not that setting this up seems really hard but before I put forth effort I figured I'd do this little check. I just took my power heads and twisted them so the heads we're slightly out of the water (again just to see how the tank inhabitants reacted) this did give a tank full of bubbles. My clown fish cowered in their nem and rock dwelling type fish hid under rocks. One of my torch coral went nuts with sweepers (1 of 5). My little acro frag slimed up like expected. The only tank inhabant that really seemed to hate bubble contact was my Maxima clam. The clam closed up tight and didn't reopen untill about a half hour after the bubbles were gone. I only left the tank bubbled up for about an hour to see how everyone reacted to this but figured I'd post what I noticed in my tank.

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Bpb · 04/21/2018, 09:08 AM

Yeah the sound of the powerhead drawing air will definitely frighten the fish. Maxima clams are rock boring and usually in very shallow foamy water. They’re perfectly adapt at air bubbles. They’ll close up temporarily just to avoid bubbles in their siphon and if any do get in they can burp themselves

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Dsekula · 04/21/2018, 10:07 AM

I hear ya Bpb, I just wanted to post my first impressions on my tank. This morning when my lights came on the tank did seem clearer or something (idk how to describe this exactly since the water has always been clear) there was some noticeable gunk that had gotten knocked from the rocks, some was on the setteled sand bed and some still leaving the water colum. When checking my morning readings my po4 had increased from 0.04 the night before to 0.08 . It's worth mentioning that I do the 6days of feedings and skip the 7th and yesterday day was skip day. My best guess is that this helped pull all this gunk from the rocks that increase po4 not that the air increase po4

.

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Dsekula · 04/21/2018, 10:21 AM

Now here is the issue I have with the process of air scrubbing as it has been described.
Mag and direct drive pumps arnt imtended to run with air and water mixing through them. These are the two most commonly used return pumps. Running air through them causes the impellers to turn non-uniform or what I and my coworkers refer to as "the wobble". When this is done on a regular basis the insides of the pump wear scoring marks and notches and softer rubber parts are ripped apart. The pump will continue to oerate but very loud and the life span will greatly decrease as it gets chewed up. Mag drives will take longer to show issues than direct but I've yet to see this not happen at all. I'll post a pic of the pond pumps I rebuilt due to this issue to illistrate what I'm talking about. these ran for 4 months continus (from date on purchase) with water 1/2" below the top of the pumps due to the owner not realizing that this was an issue. This is from a little giant PES-1000-PW not some cheap knock off garbage btw. Since the client no longer wanted these and declared them garbage even though they could be fixed and used properly these are now the pumps I'm using on my aquarium.
How do you guys that do this regularly combat the wobble?KIMG0564.jpg KIMG0565.jpg

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Knighthawk · 04/21/2018, 10:22 AM

I would pick up an airstone and some type of airpump and give it a try. When I run mine at night the tank gets almost to the point where all you see is little bubbles. You have that huge sump down there so it should be pretty easy to hook it up.

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Bpb · 04/21/2018, 10:30 AM

With a lime wood airstone the bubbles are so fine that the impeller doesn’t really wobble or have to chop them up. What you’re describing is what would happen like you said with a powerhead half out of the water, or if you put the airline with no diffuser directly into the pump intake. Then you would have large enough bubbles to create non-uniform impeller resistance and a wobble/churning sound as a result. The lime wood stone is what used to be used in air driven skimmers so the bubbles are very fine. Most the bigger ones go directly to the surface and the ultra fine ones you can really only adequately visualize if you put a light on the side of the tank, are the ones that make it up to the display. They can stay in suspension for hours they’re so small and have virtually no buoyancy. The weight of the water and flow keeps them circulating a long time and the pumps should function normally without cavitation. If you cut flow and the tank goes stagnant you can watch the nano bubbles and they raise at an ultra slow rate of a few millimeters per second.

The process is pretty specific as originally outlined and takes all things into account, like pump cavitation and fish scaring.

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Dsekula · 04/21/2018, 08:38 PM

Thanks guys that makes sense lol I couldn't even think of cavitation, I get so stuck in our field jargon

. I have extra pumps and air stones laying around but I'll have to look into the auctual wood ones you guys are using (I'm sure it's hardly an investment) any recommendations for sizes etc on a 100-200 gal system?

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04/19/2018, 06:36 PM	#28
Bpb Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 3,148	Bubble Scrubbing and the Red Bug Scourge You could. I don’t like that idea for my own tank though. It would cut down massively on flow. I shoot for 50-100x tank volume turnover per hour Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

04/19/2018, 07:28 PM	#35
reefmutt Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mtl. Canada Posts: 7,824	I would bet the faster the impeller/propeller is spinning the better.. But just by using a good wooden air stone, the bubbles will aprobably fine enough.. I might do an experiment and put a wooden air stone under my gyre.. __________________ Matt. Current Tank Info: 53x32.5x26 190g dt 60g of sumps 3 tank-100 gal frag system 6xAI prime 8xt5. 4x maxspect gyre. Skimz Dual internal sicce pump skimmer Deltec PF601s ca rx+Kalk stirrer

04/21/2018, 10:30 AM	#41
Bpb Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 3,148	Bubble Scrubbing and the Red Bug Scourge With a lime wood airstone the bubbles are so fine that the impeller doesn’t really wobble or have to chop them up. What you’re describing is what would happen like you said with a powerhead half out of the water, or if you put the airline with no diffuser directly into the pump intake. Then you would have large enough bubbles to create non-uniform impeller resistance and a wobble/churning sound as a result. The lime wood stone is what used to be used in air driven skimmers so the bubbles are very fine. Most the bigger ones go directly to the surface and the ultra fine ones you can really only adequately visualize if you put a light on the side of the tank, are the ones that make it up to the display. They can stay in suspension for hours they’re so small and have virtually no buoyancy. The weight of the water and flow keeps them circulating a long time and the pumps should function normally without cavitation. If you cut flow and the tank goes stagnant you can watch the nano bubbles and they raise at an ultra slow rate of a few millimeters per second. The process is pretty specific as originally outlined and takes all things into account, like pump cavitation and fish scaring. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

04/19/2018, 06:52 PM	#30
Bpb Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 3,148	You certainly could. That’s a much more expensive, noisy, and unsightly way though to use an entire additional powerhead. I like the airstone and air pump that can be fairly well hidden out of site And are noiseless Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

04/19/2018, 06:52 PM	#31
fijisrfr Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 594	Air stone in front of power head doesn’t achieve the same results 1. The reason for putting the air stone in front of the return is so the bubbles are sucked into the pump then get all chopped up into micro bubbles like the skimmer produces 2. I would think that putting it in front or below Power head won’t chop up the bubbles the same way the return pump would. 3. Basically, you are turning the tank into a giant skimmer, dissolved organic coated bubbles make their way to the sump/skimmer for removal, tank has never looked better. However, I can’t speak to the usefulness in getting rid of red bugs. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

04/19/2018, 07:07 PM	#33
fijisrfr Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 594	The point is that I don’t think that a power head will chop the bubbles as fine as the return pump. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

04/19/2018, 07:12 PM	#34
Bpb Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 3,148	I know but it seems to me that the faster spinning propeller/impeller would chop smaller bubbles would it not? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

04/21/2018, 08:46 AM	#36
Dsekula Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sterling Posts: 271	I did an expariment yesterday to see how my tank inhabitants would react to bubbles . Not that setting this up seems really hard but before I put forth effort I figured I'd do this little check. I just took my power heads and twisted them so the heads we're slightly out of the water (again just to see how the tank inhabitants reacted) this did give a tank full of bubbles. My clown fish cowered in their nem and rock dwelling type fish hid under rocks. One of my torch coral went nuts with sweepers (1 of 5). My little acro frag slimed up like expected. The only tank inhabant that really seemed to hate bubble contact was my Maxima clam. The clam closed up tight and didn't reopen untill about a half hour after the bubbles were gone. I only left the tank bubbled up for about an hour to see how everyone reacted to this but figured I'd post what I noticed in my tank. Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk

04/21/2018, 09:08 AM	#37
Bpb Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 3,148	Yeah the sound of the powerhead drawing air will definitely frighten the fish. Maxima clams are rock boring and usually in very shallow foamy water. They’re perfectly adapt at air bubbles. They’ll close up temporarily just to avoid bubbles in their siphon and if any do get in they can burp themselves Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

04/21/2018, 10:07 AM	#38
Dsekula Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sterling Posts: 271	I hear ya Bpb, I just wanted to post my first impressions on my tank. This morning when my lights came on the tank did seem clearer or something (idk how to describe this exactly since the water has always been clear) there was some noticeable gunk that had gotten knocked from the rocks, some was on the setteled sand bed and some still leaving the water colum. When checking my morning readings my po4 had increased from 0.04 the night before to 0.08 . It's worth mentioning that I do the 6days of feedings and skip the 7th and yesterday day was skip day. My best guess is that this helped pull all this gunk from the rocks that increase po4 not that the air increase po4 . Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk

04/21/2018, 10:21 AM	#39
Dsekula Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sterling Posts: 271	Now here is the issue I have with the process of air scrubbing as it has been described. Mag and direct drive pumps arnt imtended to run with air and water mixing through them. These are the two most commonly used return pumps. Running air through them causes the impellers to turn non-uniform or what I and my coworkers refer to as "the wobble". When this is done on a regular basis the insides of the pump wear scoring marks and notches and softer rubber parts are ripped apart. The pump will continue to oerate but very loud and the life span will greatly decrease as it gets chewed up. Mag drives will take longer to show issues than direct but I've yet to see this not happen at all. I'll post a pic of the pond pumps I rebuilt due to this issue to illistrate what I'm talking about. these ran for 4 months continus (from date on purchase) with water 1/2" below the top of the pumps due to the owner not realizing that this was an issue. This is from a little giant PES-1000-PW not some cheap knock off garbage btw. Since the client no longer wanted these and declared them garbage even though they could be fixed and used properly these are now the pumps I'm using on my aquarium. How do you guys that do this regularly combat the wobble?KIMG0564.jpg KIMG0565.jpg Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk

04/21/2018, 10:22 AM	#40
Knighthawk Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 167	I would pick up an airstone and some type of airpump and give it a try. When I run mine at night the tank gets almost to the point where all you see is little bubbles. You have that huge sump down there so it should be pretty easy to hook it up. Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

04/21/2018, 08:38 PM	#42
Dsekula Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sterling Posts: 271	Thanks guys that makes sense lol I couldn't even think of cavitation, I get so stuck in our field jargon . I have extra pumps and air stones laying around but I'll have to look into the auctual wood ones you guys are using (I'm sure it's hardly an investment) any recommendations for sizes etc on a 100-200 gal system? Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk