Cryptocaryon Irritans - tank transfer method

[kirsto71]

I just completed a 12 day tank transfer process for some new fish and was pretty happy with the process. I cleaned everything with bleach and then dried them for a minimum of 24hrs. I am comfortable I didn't comtaminate.

After the process though I had a chance to question my process. During the period I had a mesh top on the tank to prevent jumpers and moved this to each tank. One thing I noticed post TTM wa that the mesh had signs of salt creep which I assume was from the bubbles from the air stone. Is it possible that ich could have accidentally been transferred to the mesh and then possibly dripped back into the next tank. Can ich be aerated? Weird question I know but just wondering. The fish are all in a final QT for observation over next four weeks so if I stuffed up the process then I can recover and start the TTM again.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by kirsto71

I just completed a 12 day tank transfer process for some new fish and was pretty happy with the process. I cleaned everything with bleach and then dried them for a minimum of 24hrs. I am comfortable I didn't comtaminate.

After the process though I had a chance to question my process. During the period I had a mesh top on the tank to prevent jumpers and moved this to each tank. One thing I noticed post TTM wa that the mesh had signs of salt creep which I assume was from the bubbles from the air stone. Is it possible that ich could have accidentally been transferred to the mesh and then possibly dripped back into the next tank. Can ich be aerated? Weird question I know but just wondering. The fish are all in a final QT for observation over next four weeks so if I stuffed up the process then I can recover and start the TTM again.

There is small chance of contamination but IMO, the odds are very low. A different mesh top would be preferable.

[kirsto71]

Originally Posted by snorvich

There is small chance of contamination but IMO, the odds are very low. A different mesh top would be preferable.

I have two lots of egg crate. That way in the future I can hose down and dry the egg crate between uses. Then I can be absolutely sure. Will see how the fish go in QT for th next four weeks. If ich is present I assume it will show.

How long will it take for ich to show in the QT if it is present.

Thanks for reply.

[NTP66]

I went the opposite route with the tops - bought a large sheet of acrylic at Lowes and had it cut down to size to fit over my 10g tanks, and then simply swapped them out at each transfer. They're cheap, a breeze to clean, and help keep salinity stable.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by NTP66

I went the opposite route with the tops - bought a large sheet of acrylic at Lowes and had it cut down to size to fit over my 10g tanks, and then simply swapped them out at each transfer. They're cheap, a breeze to clean, and help keep salinity stable.

Excellent idea.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by kirsto71

I

How long will it take for ich to show in the QT if it is present.

Thanks for reply.

Average life cycle is 3 weeks. However, the nature of the back end of the life cycle makes that time frame problematic. If you want 100% guarantee, redo tank transfer. I think the odds are low, however.

[kirsto71]

Originally Posted by snorvich

Average life cycle is 3 weeks. However, the nature of the back end of the life cycle makes that time frame problematic. If you want 100% guarantee, redo tank transfer. I think the odds are low, however.

thanks. I will observe them in the main QT for the time being and at least get them eating 100% and treat with Prazi. I wil then consider a round of tank transfer prior to being released into the main display tank.

[EnderTurtle]

Okay well I've been lurking for a while, time to contribute.

I've used tank transfers on clownfish, clown goby, yellow tang, barnacle blenny, chromis before with good success. None of my fish have shown signs of ich. I only have 2 clownfish in my breeder. The other fish were given away.

FYI: Tank transfer appears to have no effect on Black Ich, the tang disease. What helped was malachite green for black ich. Freshwater dips relieved black ich but did not cure it.

Now I'm tank transferring a juvenile Blue Tang with CONFIRMED ich. This will be the ultimate test. I kinda want to do more than a 14 day tank transfer period, knowing the tendency of these guys to be ich magnets.

[rssjsb]

Originally Posted by EnderTurtle

FYI: Tank transfer appears to have no effect on Black Ich, the tang disease. What helped was malachite green for black ich. Freshwater dips relieved black ich but did not cure it.

The TTM is designed around the life cycle of a particular parasite - cryptocaryon irritans. I don't think the thing called "black ich" is actually cryptocaryon, so it is not surprising that TTM did not help.

Freshwater dips don't cure ich and, other than reducing the load of flukes on an infected fish, don't accomplish much else as far as I know.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by rssjsb

The TTM is designed around the life cycle of a particular parasite - cryptocaryon irritans. I don't think the thing called "black ich" is actually cryptocaryon, so it is not surprising that TTM did not help.

Freshwater dips don't cure ich and, other than reducing the load of flukes on an infected fish, don't accomplish much else as far as I know.

Exactly. Freshwater dips have little to no effect on ich. They are useful to diagnose flukes and to relieve the symptoms of oodinium (but not cure it).

[Deinonych]

Originally Posted by rssjsb

The TTM is designed around the life cycle of a particular parasite - cryptocaryon irritans. I don't think the thing called "black ich" is actually cryptocaryon, so it is not surprising that TTM did not help.

Freshwater dips don't cure ich and, other than reducing the load of flukes on an infected fish, don't accomplish much else as far as I know.

+1

"Black Ich" is actually a turbellarian (related to flukes), not a protozoan like Cryptocaryon irritans. Prazipro is the appropriate treatment.

[tmz]

I agree. Black ich is a tiny tubellarian faltworm(Paravortex), not a protozaoan like cryptocaryon irritans. . It is easier to see on lightly colored fish but may infect many; not just tangs. Formalin or prazipro should kill it on the fish . The tank may harbour some for a period of time though. Usually it does not persist like crytocaryon irritans. Some do recoomend leaving the tank without fish for a month or two to starve it out. IME, that hasn't been necessary.

[EnderTurtle]

Prazipro was what I used to rid the black ich.

Blue tang going into display this saturday. Completing prazipro treatment and tank transfer.

[kirsto71]

I have a sailfin that I bought that showed signs of ich. I commenced tank transfer with him and so far he is at Day 10 the following is his transfer history:

Day 1 transfer into first tank to commence process
Day 4 transfer to next tank
Day 7 transfer to next tank
Day 10 transfer to next tank

I have cleaned with 50:50 bleach between uses and dried everything for a minimum 24 hours as well.

Today he is breathing heavy and when you look from the top he looks like he has some pimples on his sides. When you look at him from the side there is no evidence of white spots on the sides or fins. The pimples show due to the shadowing from the light I suspect when you look from the top. I plan to go one more transfer at Day 13. I will then put him in a tank with hypo for 4 weeks. What could have contributed to him still showing pimples. Does ich leave bumps/injury after the parasite leaves the host and that is what I am seeing. Assuming I have followed the process correctly I can't see how the ich could still exist on his body. I thought it only stayed on the fish for 7 days maximum.

[Spar]

Originally Posted by kirsto71

I have a sailfin that I bought that showed signs of ich. I commenced tank transfer with him and so far he is at Day 10 the following is his transfer history:

Day 1 transfer into first tank to commence process
Day 4 transfer to next tank
Day 7 transfer to next tank
Day 10 transfer to next tank

I have cleaned with 50:50 bleach between uses and dried everything for a minimum 24 hours as well.

Today he is breathing heavy and when you look from the top he looks like he has some pimples on his sides. When you look at him from the side there is no evidence of white spots on the sides or fins. The pimples show due to the shadowing from the light I suspect when you look from the top. I plan to go one more transfer at Day 13. I will then put him in a tank with hypo for 4 weeks. What could have contributed to him still showing pimples. Does ich leave bumps/injury after the parasite leaves the host and that is what I am seeing. Assuming I have followed the process correctly I can't see how the ich could still exist on his body. I thought it only stayed on the fish for 7 days maximum.

doesn't sound like ich, but i am having a brain freeze on what the bumps may be caused by. when Ich jump off the fish that is when you see the white dots, which are the exit wounds from them popping out of the skin. they are way too small to cause noticeable bumps.

what equipment and hiding places are you using during TTM? any chance that something sponged up some of the bleach not allowing it dry completely?

what size tank are you treating him in?

[kirsto71]

Originally Posted by Spar

doesn't sound like ich, but i am having a brain freeze on what the bumps may be caused by. when Ich jump off the fish that is when you see the white dots, which are the exit wounds from them popping out of the skin. they are way too small to cause noticeable bumps.

what equipment and hiding places are you using during TTM? any chance that something sponged up some of the bleach not allowing it dry completely?

what size tank are you treating him in?

The tank has pvc pipe for hiding places and is generally covered to darken the tank and limit disturbance from people walking past. The main QT is 80 litres but i am moving him to a single 40L tank just for him for the time being. All tanks that are used for tank transfer are around 40 litres. They are basic plastic tubs - easy to clean and I have plenty to allow for adequate drying time.

I cant be 100% that there wasn't some moisture somewhere I noticed where the cable enters the top of the heater there is an area some moisture can be trapped but I leave the heaters out in the sun (even during Autumn in QLD the temps have been around 27 - 30 C) for at least 24 - 36 hours.

[salty joe]

Has anyone tried TTM on jawfish?

My limited experience with jawfish is until they get settled in, they are freaked out and don't eat. I think moving them every 3 days would keep them freaked out.

Any ideas?

[Patchmty]

Are there any particular considerations for ttm on Pseudochromis?

[RainbowTurtle]

Copper isn't an option at any lfs store in Maine, so I used the transfer method. I would advocate this method any day. It works just as good, if not better than copper and if you do it right, there is next to zero stress to the fish. First, they've proven ich can attach to some types of coral, glass, acrylic, plastic, filter media and a myriad Of other tank tools as well as some CORAL (for some reason, not starfish though, which I find odd since they CAN attach to sea urchins). So QT EVERYTHING YOU BRING IN. Secondly, it does not take a lot of equipment. For my two clowns I used two, two gallon tanks and a ten gallon. The tanks are not established. All start with brand new water. No sand, no filtration. Only a bubbler and a heater and a fishing net or turkey baster is required (for removing excess food and waste at the end of the day). You also need two hours fairly early in the morning so organize schedules accordingly. All tank parameters must match exactly. This was responsible for the absence of stress in my recovering fish. Saline must be exact because changes in saline, even minor ones, can really stress them out. Ph and heat can too, so stick to the same water source and have heated SPRING water ready. I use spring water to start because I use this to kill off anything that might survive the over night vinegar soaking between tank transfers. I also allow complete drying of the tank to occur. I treat my water (also helps to keep down ammonia briefly in a filter less tank). I get my parameters right. I transfer my fish (WITHOUT A NET). The net is only fir picking up wasted food four minutes after feeding. I feed twice a day and check ammonia and in the two gallon tanks they always read zero come the next day. My nitrites are zero, nitrates between five and eight (not too bad considering my DT runs around 15-20). Calcium is 425, ph might run slightly low with spring water so keep an eye on that. When I transfer my fish, they feel like they are going into the same water (according to tests) as much as possible. No stress. The tanks appear identical. Bubbler and heater are cleaned with vinegar, rinsed dried and replaced (rinse and dry WELL or you'll mess up your alk and ph with the vinegar) and are placed in the exact same place. When I tried hypo, as slow as I tried dropping the salinity and as well as I held it, my fish almost died purely from the stress of it. I do not advocate hypo, though I don't begrudge anyone who's managed to make it work for them, but I find this works better than anything else I have tried. It's chem. free, low stress and just a bit more work. If you don't have extra tanks, anything big enough to hold two gallons of water will work (not metal). Only other thing is to soak everything you use in vinegar over night to kill anything that might be on it. Even one drip of infected water can reinfect your fish so don't share tools with your DT. I transfer from two gallon to two gallon every morning for 12 days. Then they go into the QT ten gallon tank for the remaining ten or eleven weeks (yes you heard that right). Altogether it's 13-14 weeks, give or take a couple of days. For this tank I use RO/DI water and I change it out exactly as I did the two gallons, once a week (so they spend a day a week back in the two gallon) vinegar, drying and all. It sounds like a lot, but as long as your water doesn't change, they don't really stress. I use a simple hang on the back filter with carbon for the ten gallon and toss the carbon, putting in a new one every time I clean my tank and put in new water. I only have two baby clowns. I would not use two gallons for more or bigger fish than that. I stick to a one gallon per inch of fish rule (just for those 12 days). After that it's two gallons per one inch of fish. I really feel stress is a big part of fish loss during ich treatment. That, and ich on the gills. One you can help and one you can't, but I'll take what control I can for them. One last thing... I never feed more than twice a day during this. This is to hold the water more steady in such a small environment. After they are in the ten gallon, I feed three times, but I am meticulous about vacuuming out the bottom after with a piece of air line hose. You can pinch it so you don't remove too much water while you clean, just removing the detritus. This method has left me totally ich free. I hope it helps someone else. Both fish survived. Judge your fish though. If you have a particular type of fish who does not handle transfer well, you would be much better off with copper. Those are the only two methods I support myself.

[RainbowTurtle]

Originally Posted by alaska clowns

OK - What do you use for water circulation/aeration on the Rubbermaid tubs? I don't think an empty HOB filter would hang nicely on the edge for me; an air pump and stone, maybe?
Thank you!

I use a bubbler. If you have lots of fish and absolutely must need filtration, I would go with a water bottle, bubbler, really good filter media (ceramic or better... look for both porous and rough). The white filter will have to be thrown out and a new one put in every change and the media will have to be disinfected every time. You have to use different things for each tank and disinfect anything you use between transfers. That includes filter media, but the cotton filters have to be thrown. Holes punched in the bottom, holes punched into the top around the bottle cap. One larger hole (for the hair line hose) just about two inches below the cap and put small bubbler on after you feed the air line hose into the bottle. Then pour in your ceramic media and lastly put in your fluvial cotton filter (only need a half of one). I attach two suction cups to the bottle (easy just make holes in sides of the bottle a bit smaller than the knob on the back of the suction cups and when you push the knobs through the holes, they will stay and it's pretty air tight too. This way you can easily place it anywhere. You don't need to use one that hangs. Turn the bottle upside down. Plug in air line hose and place into tank bottom up, cap side down. This is a great method and it is easy to change out. soak media in vinegar or bleach and let dry completely prior to reuse (very important to let dry completely). Personally, though I would go without. Hope it helps.

[RainbowTurtle]

Originally Posted by kirsto71

I just completed a 12 day tank transfer process for some new fish and was pretty happy with the process. I cleaned everything with bleach and then dried them for a minimum of 24hrs. I am comfortable I didn't comtaminate.

After the process though I had a chance to question my process. During the period I had a mesh top on the tank to prevent jumpers and moved this to each tank. One thing I noticed post TTM wa that the mesh had signs of salt creep which I assume was from the bubbles from the air stone. Is it possible that ich could have accidentally been transferred to the mesh and then possibly dripped back into the next tank. Can ich be aerated? Weird question I know but just wondering. The fish are all in a final QT for observation over next four weeks so if I stuffed up the process then I can recover and start the TTM again.

If you are very worried about the bubbler for aeration, just use the airline hose without the bubbler and disinfect the air line hose.

[Cujo13]

Hello, in the middle of TTM on a Powder Brown Tang. When using Prazi during TTM is it ok to use Prime in the same tank as the Prazi?

[kenpau]

Originally Posted by EnderTurtle

Now I'm tank transferring a juvenile Blue Tang with CONFIRMED ich. This will be the ultimate test.

How did your blue tang go? I did exactly the same when I pulled all my fish from my DT and carried out the TTM after my Hippo Tang got ich. After TTM I decided to sell the tang because they are stressed so easily. So I placed all fish back in the DT except for the Blue Tang which stayed in the QT. About 3 days later only one fish showed signs of ich again......no prizes for guessing which one!

[kirsto71]

Just checking. I need to move the fish at 4:30am tomorrow due to work commitment. Is it OK if the next move is 74hrs later as I will go back to 6:30am moves. I normally maintain the gap between transfers at 72 hours exactly. Maybe I am little too pedantic?

Thanks

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by kirsto71

Just checking. I need to move the fish at 4:30am tomorrow due to work commitment. Is it OK if the next move is 74hrs later as I will go back to 6:30am moves. I normally maintain the gap between transfers at 72 hours exactly. Maybe I am little too pedantic?

Thanks

Less than 72 hours is important. Risk accumulates if 72 hours is exceeded.