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Unread 03/03/2015, 09:44 PM   #876
mygsris2slo4u
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Help please

I posted some pics (including microscope pics) of what may or may not be Dinos. If any of you could poke your head in to that thread it would be much appreciated. I have not received positive Id on the culprit.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2478900


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Unread 03/03/2015, 10:08 PM   #877
mfaso24
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Dinoflagellates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mygsris2slo4u View Post
I posted some pics (including microscope pics) of what may or may not be Dinos. If any of you could poke your head in to that thread it would be much appreciated. I have not received positive Id on the culprit.



http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2478900

Just took a look. Hm I'm not positive. Dino's are usually more egg shaped was it moving under the micrsope? Dino's move pretty quickly. You can probably look it up and see what I'm talking about. I saw it somewhere but don't remember where.

Hopefully someone else can chime in and offer a little more help.


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Unread 03/03/2015, 10:13 PM   #878
mygsris2slo4u
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfaso24 View Post
Just took a look. Hm I'm not positive. Dino's are usually more egg shaped was it moving under the micrsope? Dino's move pretty quickly. You can probably look it up and see what I'm talking about. I saw it somewhere but don't remember where.

Hopefully someone else can chime in and offer a little more help.
No movement... And did not appear to look like anything Pants shows in his YouTube videos. I really am stumped.


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Unread 03/04/2015, 12:32 AM   #879
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It does not look like dinos, ciano or diatoms on the microscope.


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Unread 03/04/2015, 12:06 PM   #880
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As some of you know I've started a anti-dino approach in my 240. I noticed that in my DSB there were a lot of places with the dreaded "black sand" some under rocks, some under deep sand. I am in the process of taking out about half of my sand. I will be replacing with new, and I'm scrubbing my live rock and putting them into a separate container until I have things straightened out. I fear this is going to start a new cycle, but it is what it is. I am really sick of the dino's. So far they are managing to kill some of my corals..
I am running my skimmer pretty heavy, dosing with H2O2, running charcoal, and running my diatom filter, because I'm causing quite a storm in the tank.
My hopes are that with the shallow bed, I will be able to keep it stirred up enough periodically to keep the "gook" in suspension so that the protein skimmer can do it's job. I have a couple of Dart pumps moving water around in the display, I'm just going to have to direct it to better keep the live rock "dusted" off. I will try to keep everyone posted as to my progress and if this is going to help or not.
I did have (about 6 or 7 months ago my ATO stuck on and filled my tank and sump with Kalkwasser). This, to the point it looked like my tank was filled with milk instead of water! Yes, almost everything in the tank died. I tried doing water changes, etc, but I believe there was just too much dead in the tank that I couldn't get out and caused this flare up. Hopefully, this will fix my problem.
more later


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Unread 03/04/2015, 02:10 PM   #881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimasterben View Post
Mine is staying on. If it kills bacteria, I couldn't care less, I've got plenty to spare and they reproduce quickly. Besides, the 'important' bacterial colonies live on the surfaces of the rock/tank/substrate/etc, the ones pushed out into the water column are skimmer food anyway.
figured i'd leave an update - about 2 weeks ago i mistakenly turned off the pump for my UV while trying to turn off another pump for my GFO...i did not get any blooms or appearances of dinos and the only reason i knew my UV got shut off was because i was cleaning and lifted the return hose and saw no water was coming out of it...this now makes it over 3 months dino-free since the installation of my UV

how is your tank doing? are you seeing any under the microscope?


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Unread 03/04/2015, 11:14 PM   #882
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Which actions apart from the UV sterilizer did you address to fight the dinos? If I remember right they were ostreopsis.


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Unread 03/05/2015, 08:49 AM   #883
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Monti, not sure if that question was addressed to me but if it was I'm not sure what strain I had because I never purchased a microscope. However, I tried every single trick in the book other than the ATS or pouring my skimmate back into the tank. So off the top of my head I tried 3/4/5/9 day blackouts, raising pH, raising Alk, skimming wet, manual siphoning, all blue lights only for weeks, Ultra Algae X, DinoXal, H2O2 at triple the recommended dose twice a day, higher flow, no water changes for 2 months, heavy GFO, replacing filter twice daily, yelling obscenities at the dinos, you name it. Nothing worked except the UV.

I honestly think UV should work for all dino strains, you just have to have a big enough one that can eradicate them before they can reproduce. I did a 3 day blackout prior to installing the UV and during those days I made sure to blow each rock and crevice to make sure as much of them if not all of them were in the water column.


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Unread 03/05/2015, 12:10 PM   #884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PorkchopExpress View Post

I honestly think UV should work for all dino strains, you just have to have a big enough one that can eradicate them before they can reproduce. I did a 3 day blackout prior to installing the UV and during those days I made sure to blow each rock and crevice to make sure as much of them if not all of them were in the water column.

During the daytime dinos like to sit on the sand and other surfaces.
Blowing them off at this time is very ineffective because dinos will attach instantly again to almost anything including themselves.

By night they get free swimming and this is the time for UV mass killing.
This easy method is vastly superior.

I would like to know for sure how fast they divide, but until then I will speculate it's insanely fast when they need to.
By my experience and others as well the tank will be back to square one in hours or perhaps the following day at best.


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Unread 03/05/2015, 01:44 PM   #885
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Originally Posted by DNA View Post
During the daytime dinos like to sit on the sand and other surfaces.
Blowing them off at this time is very ineffective because dinos will attach instantly again to almost anything including themselves.

By night they get free swimming and this is the time for UV mass killing.
This easy method is vastly superior.

I would like to know for sure how fast they divide, but until then I will speculate it's insanely fast when they need to.
By my experience and others as well the tank will be back to square one in hours or perhaps the following day at best.
That's why I think an oversized UV in conjunction with blackouts would be the ideal dino killing procedure. Remove as much sand as you can probably also helped as well. We all know they free float into the water column at lights out so that is the best time to kill them. What a lot of other infected reefers who've used UV in the past and failed probably didn't have one that was big enough. I used a 55w pond sterilizer rated for a 15000 gallon pond and 4400gph flow in my tiny 34 gallon with a maxijet rated at 300gph. How anything in my water column can survive that is beyond me. 3 months later my tank is thriving like it never had so I don't think using one this big has had any ill effects on the ecosystem of my tank.


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Unread 03/05/2015, 03:06 PM   #886
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Does bryosis turn brown? The more I read, the more what I think are dino's may in fact be bryosis.


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Unread 03/06/2015, 10:56 AM   #887
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Just an update...tomorrow will be two weeks with no water change. I've been running blue actinics only for about 4 hours a day the last week or so. Dino growth is still there but definitely noticeably slowing down. I also received algae x in mail today and will begin treatment tonight. Will keep everyone updated on results.


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Unread 03/07/2015, 08:31 AM   #888
mygsris2slo4u
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mygsris2slo4u View Post
I posted some pics (including microscope pics) of what may or may not be Dinos. If any of you could poke your head in to that thread it would be much appreciated. I have not received positive Id on the culprit.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2478900
Anyone else have an idea? It's frustrating trying to fight an unknown. The only thing I'm sure of at this point is that it is not Dinos.


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Unread 03/10/2015, 01:27 PM   #889
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So I've done two treatments (today will be my third) and the results are pretty significant. Lighting has been increased about an hour a day (still only actinics) and after about 5 hours there's really only a few strands on my zoas. I'll continue treatment probably up to 5 treatments (or 10 days as treatment is every other day) and see where I'm at as I gradually increase lighting


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Unread 03/10/2015, 01:46 PM   #890
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Important to know which species of dinos you are fighting with. The product you mention does nothing to ostreopsis but can clean amphidinium in a few days.


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Unread 03/10/2015, 01:50 PM   #891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montireef View Post
Important to know which species of dinos you are fighting with. The product you mention does nothing to ostreopsis but can clean amphidinium in a few days.

Yes I agree. And I havnt id'd using a microscope however I highly suspect it is not ostreopsis for the fact that I have not noticed any die off of crabs or snails or other inverts. I'm aware that ostreopsis is highly toxic.


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Unread 03/10/2015, 02:25 PM   #892
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Ostreopsis is not always toxic. I have suffered four outbreaks and only the first one killed all my snails and fishes
It is a mysterious fact that nobody can explain yet.


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Unread 03/10/2015, 04:58 PM   #893
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Dino help

After reading all these horror stories, It seems like a NECESSITY to break my tank down and start over. But I do have a few questions, if any of you can help with some answers
I will be putting all my livestock in a smaller tank while my showtank gets completely redone, dried out and completely cleaned out with new sand and rock. When the cycle is complete, and I put my corals back in, will I be bringing the dinoflagalattes with them? Will a fresh water dip "REALLY" kill them? Will drying out my tank kill them before I restart it? Is there any helpful suggestions or advice that anyone can offer me to re-starting my tank? Thanks for the help!


=DNA;21643044]Dinoflagellates.
These are my findings on this persistent algae and they may not apply exactly to all since there are many types.
After 1,5 years and having tried all of the usual methods and then number of my own I'm getting closer to be an expert.
I got them from a colossal tank and they are visible there if you look for them, but are kept in check by something unknown.
Dinos are extremely successful in the wild and can grow to epic proportions called red tides killing fish and inverts in big numbers with their toxic soup.
They can also sense bad times ahead and create cysts that lie dormant until the conditions are right again.

My tank and I
It's a 420g system lit with three 250W Mh and four 80W actinic T5. The sump is lit with a single 250W Mh.
There are four Tunze stream pumps and a big Eheim return pump. Deltec skimmer and calcium reactor rated for my tank. Bio pellet, carbon and GFO reactors. I have over 10 years in the hobby.

Light color
At 14K Kelvin the dinos grow well.
Under 20K Kelvin bulbs wich is very blue the dinos grow just as well, but are less visible since the color of the light does not bring out the natural brown as much.
I ran 14K and 20K Kelvin, 250W bulbs at the same time just to find out if color range or bulb age matter.
Light intensity
The dinos do not like very intense light and usually there is less of them there than in darker spots.
Still they do not grow in fully shaded areas so there is an intensity range they prefer.
Dark periods.
I turned the lights off for three days and resumed with 5 hours a day. This was just like hitting the pause button. The skimmer did not skim any more and detritus in the water column did not increase. This was totally useless method in my case. I kept doing the 5 hours light period for two weeks. The dinos did fine before, during and after this test.

Current
I have not seen any difference between high and low current areas except where the current is high enough to blow the dinos right off.

Water changes
Dinoflagellates love water changes and not doing them will for sure make the dinos suffer. Still there is a drawback. I do 25% water changes monthly, but twice I have skipped doing them.
On the first occasion it was for two months and I lost a lot of corals and the dinos did not go away. The second time I had to try this method again and on the fifth week much of the dinos had left and I was pleased with the progress, but after six weeks the dinos in my corals started to leave as well, some corals died while others only lost the youngest growth or tips. There is a very thin line here and I do not recommend this if you have cherished Acroporas.
When I switched from standard TMC mix to full strength Red Sea Coral Pro I had couple of months of amazing coral growth and great colors. At the same time I switched out my Mh bulbs to more yellow ones.
This was when the dinos appeared in numbers and the growth stopped in many of the corals, but not all. Later I realized what I had thought for months to be diatoms on the sand was actually dinos.

Feeding.
I cut the feeding down by half for two months and it had no effect on the dinos. I felt the fish were starving so I went back to normal feeding wich is not much by the way.

Cleaning.
A good skimmer is a must. Without one I think my tank would be a real mess or worse.
Blowing the dinos off the rocks may keep them from settling in and grow into clumps. This could be most useful next to corals were the algae could have a chance to smother a delicate coral. Doing this every few hours can be a real pain though.
The most effective method to remove large amounts at a time is to turn off the pumps, blow off the rocks and siphon the sand. You can siphon the sand twice a week and get each time amazing amounts of gunk that is clearly dinos. I spent a lot of time keeping my tank super clean, but that did not have any long term effect.
Filter socks are very helpful and will collect a lot of dinos both on the inside and as well on the outside if the lighting conditions are right. After two or three days they can not take more.

Growth rate.
I think they may be self regulating by some unknown parameter since they have never crossed certain density and in my case I'd say I have a mild to average dino problem. It never got epic and never got to acceptable.
I have had Cheatomorpha in my sump for almost a year that has never been harvested and hardly grows.

Corals
Coral growth is hampered by the dinos. I think it's the toxic soup they produce.
At times when there have been less dinos the corals show clear signs of good growth, better polyp extension and better health.
Some of my sps corals have been doing quite good for the duration while others are clearly affected by the dinos.
LPS and Montipora are doing fine and are less effected than the usual more difficult corals.
Coraline only grows in well shaded areas the dinos do not like.

Temperature.
I tried to run the tank at several temperatures and that did not leave a dent in anything.

Ca, Alk, Mg, Nitrates.
My tank has both had periods of low alkalinity and low calcium and at that time I though that had something to do with it, but having perfect parameters does not make dinos grow any less.
pH
I raised the pH of the tank to about 8.4 for three days using kalkwasser without any positive effect. I had to keep the dosing to a steady stream to keep the pH up. The amount was way more than the tank needed and all of the pumps needed maintenance after.
Ferric Oxide. GFO.
For a few weeks I used a few pounds of the stuff and it did not help in any way make the tank look better.
Carbon
I think it's useful for the tanks health, but not in a way that you will see any changes.
Bio Pellets and Vodka.
I had dinos before and after so they do not solve anything.
Algae X
This is not available or has been imported to my contry before so I'm certain to have big problems with customs or need to pay big buchs to have it tried and tested and hopefully accepted in months or years even.

I'm certain Dinoflaggelates change the chemistry of your tank in a way most of it's inhabitants are affected in a negative way. There are a number of methods some reefers have been succesful with while others have not. If you have a small tank, try some of them and restart if you are not successful. If it's a big tank and restart is not an option prepare to lose some corals and be aggressive in your battle against this devil.

I hope this will help someone.
DNA[/QUOTE]


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Unread 03/10/2015, 05:15 PM   #894
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When the cycle is complete, and I put my corals back in, will I be bringing the dinoflagalattes with them? Will a fresh water dip "REALLY" kill them?
Unfortunately your photosynthetic livestock is constantly on the hunt for new zooxanthellae. Our toxic dinoflagellates are pretty similar to the dinoflagellates that they are looking for and so are taken in. They are not suitable, so they are later excreted back out, but that's where the problem for us comes, you don't know if the corals will have any inside of them. It only takes one dino to start another bloom.


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Unread 03/10/2015, 05:47 PM   #895
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I agree.

I tried it out three months ago just to lose time, money and many acroporas.


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Unread 03/11/2015, 08:00 AM   #896
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Quick update:

The significant bloom of large-celled dinoflagellates subsided late last week, literally disappearing as fast as it appeared. The only change was kalkwasser instead of 2 part, though I can't determine if pH (especially with plenty of macroalgae and no skimming for exchange) or lack of trace impurities were to blame. I suppose I could begin dosing homemade 2 part again, but everything is doing too nicely for me to try it, honestly.


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Unread 03/14/2015, 08:11 AM   #897
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So after reading absolutely every post on here, reading every successful attack and every failed attempt, all the methods of annihilation and every way to go at this pest I decided to put a few I've read into place since I've been battling dinos for about 6 month's now. I couldn't narrow down which strain I had, no microscope and I don't really want one, not now anyway. I also couldn't figure out any specific thing that has worked for anyone so I just picked a few and went with it plus added a couple of my own. I tried the no water change but that accomplished nothing, I did however reduce the amount of water changed, a mere 5 gallons every 3 then 4 day's, 10 gallons a week total. I constantly was sucking up the pests, sometimes twice a day, I'd clean a put the water back in. I changed the direction of my powerheads to point across the tank instead of being angled towards the bottom. In my case I found that more flow towards them was not helping but was in fact causing more rapid growth. My carbon is now in a reactor and my bio pellets are working well, it's about 4 weeks active now. I was using filter floss in my sump as a water polisher but have since removed that and now use a more coarse and washable foam for that. My LED lighting reduced to 10% chanel 1 and 5% chanel 2, it stayed that way for about 2 weeks. Over the course of this week it's been raised to 30% and 20%, holding it there seems to be working as corals and my nem is doing fine. I did dose peroxide for about 3 weeks at 30 ml daily but have stopped this at the beginning of this week. My uv was offline for about 4 months but I have also gotten that up and running as well, about 2 weeks ago for that. I feed twice daily now as I was feeding every other day thinking it was keeping my water cleaner so I was trying to reduce pollutants in the water. I do add a vitamin and amino acid supplement every 4 day's or so as well, I had stopped this in the past thinking it could be adding something that was fueling my dino problem. It is my belief in my case that my water was simply to clean, for lack of a better term. I had no algae growing whatsoever so there was nothing to out compete the dinos for the nutrients. I convinced myself that maybe "dirty water" would fuel other algae to grow thus assisting in killing or atleast severely reducing the dino population. I do have gha now growing in places that are not overly visible so I'm thrilled about that. It's been about 2 weeks now and my tank has for the first time in month become almost maintenance free and I'm loving it. I know that 2 weeks is nothing and I also know the little buggers are still in there but they aren't visible so I'm ok with that. I'm not sure what it was exactly that reduced them to nothing because I did so much to attack them but I do think that almost all the changes played some part in doing it. Hopefully it stays this way because for the first time in a loooonnnng time, I'm actually enjoying the big bucket of water.


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Unread 03/14/2015, 08:20 AM   #898
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearnel View Post
So after reading absolutely every post on here, reading every successful attack and every failed attempt, all the methods of annihilation and every way to go at this pest I decided to put a few I've read into place since I've been battling dinos for about 6 month's now. I couldn't narrow down which strain I had, no microscope and I don't really want one, not now anyway. I also couldn't figure out any specific thing that has worked for anyone so I just picked a few and went with it plus added a couple of my own. I tried the no water change but that accomplished nothing, I did however reduce the amount of water changed, a mere 5 gallons every 3 then 4 day's, 10 gallons a week total. I constantly was sucking up the pests, sometimes twice a day, I'd clean a put the water back in. I changed the direction of my powerheads to point across the tank instead of being angled towards the bottom. In my case I found that more flow towards them was not helping but was in fact causing more rapid growth. My carbon is now in a reactor and my bio pellets are working well, it's about 4 weeks active now. I was using filter floss in my sump as a water polisher but have since removed that and now use a more coarse and washable foam for that. My LED lighting reduced to 10% chanel 1 and 5% chanel 2, it stayed that way for about 2 weeks. Over the course of this week it's been raised to 30% and 20%, holding it there seems to be working as corals and my nem is doing fine. I did dose peroxide for about 3 weeks at 30 ml daily but have stopped this at the beginning of this week. My uv was offline for about 4 months but I have also gotten that up and running as well, about 2 weeks ago for that. I feed twice daily now as I was feeding every other day thinking it was keeping my water cleaner so I was trying to reduce pollutants in the water. I do add a vitamin and amino acid supplement every 4 day's or so as well, I had stopped this in the past thinking it could be adding something that was fueling my dino problem. It is my belief in my case that my water was simply to clean, for lack of a better term. I had no algae growing whatsoever so there was nothing to out compete the dinos for the nutrients. I convinced myself that maybe "dirty water" would fuel other algae to grow thus assisting in killing or atleast severely reducing the dino population. I do have gha now growing in places that are not overly visible so I'm thrilled about that. It's been about 2 weeks now and my tank has for the first time in month become almost maintenance free and I'm loving it. I know that 2 weeks is nothing and I also know the little buggers are still in there but they aren't visible so I'm ok with that. I'm not sure what it was exactly that reduced them to nothing because I did so much to attack them but I do think that almost all the changes played some part in doing it. Hopefully it stays this way because for the first time in a loooonnnng time, I'm actually enjoying the big bucket of water.
Glad to hear that approach seems to be working, as that has been working well for me, too. The least maintenance I've done in a while and it's paying off for the most part. Still scared to do water changes, but it may be worthwhile to cease skimming for a few days after a change... I'll have to experiment with that.


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Unread 03/14/2015, 08:27 AM   #899
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I was the same way with water changes, I did one 2 day's ago and was terrified I'd upset the balance but went for it. It didn't have any negative effects on it. Everytime I come home from work it's nerve racking to come up the stairs and look into it but what a relief when I see nothing has yet come back . I never turned my skimmer off at any time but it did go haywire many times over the last few weeks.



Last edited by Kearnel; 03/14/2015 at 08:36 AM.
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Unread 03/14/2015, 08:40 AM   #900
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I will also say that had it not been for this site and all the posts within this thread, the many contributions that all the members have made with all the information put out there, I wouldn't have really known what to try or where to start. Honestly, it was the reefcentral community that helped me along. Thanks all.


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