Guess the Phosphate level

[reefmutt]

So, you're using reefbrite LEDs to supplement your.... LEDs.. now there's another first!

[tmz]

Originally Posted by Thales

Just to clarify, I have no idea what to think because there is very little data either early in the process or later. My perception is that the anecdotes don't point to anything definitive in any direction, which is why I am kind of desperate for any kind of data. In my mind a survey might shed some light on the instances of anecdote as people tend to remember the stories that confirm their feelings on the matter and forget the ones that don't.

Confirmation bias is difficult to account for in the simple surveys typically posted on these boards and I expect would be hard to rule out in any poll on this subject . It and other external variables specific to a given aquarium or aquarist are a bit more discoverable in anecdotal case by case studies with q and a IME. In other words , connecting with those using a specific method and digging in one case at a time may offer insight for a disciplined analyst in assessing the probative value if any of a given anecdote. This is not data either may be more helpful when viewed through a prism tinted with some knowledge of the biology and chemistry involved including relevant published works if any to determine plausibility and perhaps even probablilty of a specific cause and effect.

My perception based on my own experience with organic carbon dosing and other nutrient control methods, anecdotal accounts of others and a myriad of papers is that organic carbon dosing reduces PO4 as the heterotrophic bacteria it supports use it along with nitrogen and carbon . If nitrate was/is the only target a sulfur denitrator might be a better option. If on the other hand the aquarist is unconcerned about nutrient levels and balance then no action is an obvious choice.

[jason2459]

I have a couple cases where I have seen a dramatic shift in PO4 due to driving up bacteria counts.

First time was when I first rebuilt my 55 gallon tank with pukani dry rock. My PO4 levels were extremely high. I started experimenting with a new method at the time of providing a carbon source through a pellet form. IO had a patent out in using tiny pellets in the substrate. Another company came out with larger pellets that were being put in mesh bags and some were figuring out how to use a reactor with them.

I tested out a different much cheaper source through using shapelock pellets used by hobiest to form the pha into different forms.

To me it worked well and helped to reduce my PO4 and defeat hair algae. Interesting side note I did not have elevated nitrates at the time and never really have had elevated nitrates.

Second instance where I feel I can say carbon dosing influenced PO4 was when changing my carbon sources. Since using that shapelock worked so well I kept looking into other forms of carbon dosing and landed on dosing just vinegar. I was able to for many years not use GFO at all and keep my PO4 levels around .02 to .09ppm with no concern of nitrates being under 5mg/l as always.

However, about a year ago I changed from dosing just vinegar to a mixture of Vodka and Vinegar using around the same ratio that TMZ uses of 690ml of Vinegar to 310ml Vodka. I adjusted dosage to equate what I was dosing vinegar wise to provide the same amount of a carbon source. My nitrates quickly became undetectable and PO4 dropped and stayed in a range below .02ppm.

I have actually in the past couple months switched back to dosing just vinegar and my nitrates have gone back to around 2.5-5mg/l and phosphates ranging again around .02-.09ppm.

So, take it for what its worth. But we do know bacteria does consume some form of C:N: P. Plus several other minor and trace elements. With the need of other elements to even metabolism them like Na, K, and Mg.

[tmz]

I have a permanent 90g fishless tank for coral quarentine and I am able to have NO3 of 2.5ppm, and PO4 of 0.1ppm just dosing coral powder food 3 times per week. acros are maintaning color and seem not to mind being fishless and nutrients are in tank without dosing chemicals.

I would preffer to add coral food.


Food is my first choice but some favor "nutrient fixing"( balancing N and P and C to prevent a limiting nutrient/see Liebig's law) This approach has been a mainstay for freshwater planted tanks for a long time and may have some useful applications in saltwater aquariums. It seems to be particulary useful, if the goal is to raise only one nutrient . As noted , I do toy with the nitrate side of that a tiny bit from time to time ; never needed to added phosphate though. Sometimes folks can strip it out with gfo or other aggressive treatments.Discontinuing the gfo ,lanthanum or whatever binder is in play coupled with a bit of extra food usually fixes it but if one want's to toy with phosphate additions the Seachem product is a reasonable choice.

I feed heavily, btw and I'm curious about your favorite coral food.

[sensei]

Originally Posted by Thales

I used to run MH until two years ago. I ran 4 250's, 2 in each reflector, 2 Radiums and 2 Ushio 14k (I think). After killing 90% of my SPS after amquel additions I switched to Radions G3's, now G4's. So, no MH now.

I have also run 2 XHO reefbrite strips, one front on back, with both the MH and the current lights.

Thales,
do the 2 XHO reefbrite strips give you something you like now that you run them with the G4s? I ask becuase I understand when you used them with the Halides, but now with the G4s, what is the purpose of the strips?
or you are using them because you already had them?
do you run the strip just in dusk and dawn?
blue strips correct?

Thanks

[Thales]

Originally Posted by sensei

Thales,
how many G4s do you have over your tank? XR30Pros G4s?
can I know the dimensions of your tank?

thanks

3 pros. Previously 3 g3 pros.

5 feet by 2 feet by 2 feet.

[Thales]

Originally Posted by tmz

My perception based on my own experience with organic carbon dosing and other nutrient control methods, anecdotal accounts of others and a myriad of papers is that organic carbon dosing reduces PO4 as the heterotrophic bacteria it supports use it along with nitrogen and carbon . If nitrate was/is the only target a sulfur denitrator might be a better option. If on the other hand the aquarist is unconcerned about nutrient levels and balance then no action is an obvious choice.

And the forums are filled with reports of Phosphate not budging with carbon dosing. The reality and the theory don't seem to mesh up in aquaria at least anecdotally. Conformation bias is hard to account for in anecdote!

[Thales]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

So, you're using reefbrite LEDs to supplement your.... LEDs.. now there's another first!

hehe. It does help deal with the shadowing problem.

[Thales]

Originally Posted by jason2459

I have a couple cases where I have seen a dramatic shift in PO4 due to driving up bacteria counts.

First time was when I first rebuilt my 55 gallon tank with pukani dry rock. My PO4 levels were extremely high. I started experimenting with a new method at the time of providing a carbon source through a pellet form. IO had a patent out in using tiny pellets in the substrate. Another company came out with larger pellets that were being put in mesh bags and some were figuring out how to use a reactor with them.

I tested out a different much cheaper source through using shapelock pellets used by hobiest to form the pha into different forms.

To me it worked well and helped to reduce my PO4 and defeat hair algae. Interesting side note I did not have elevated nitrates at the time and never really have had elevated nitrates.

Second instance where I feel I can say carbon dosing influenced PO4 was when changing my carbon sources. Since using that shapelock worked so well I kept looking into other forms of carbon dosing and landed on dosing just vinegar. I was able to for many years not use GFO at all and keep my PO4 levels around .02 to .09ppm with no concern of nitrates being under 5mg/l as always.

However, about a year ago I changed from dosing just vinegar to a mixture of Vodka and Vinegar using around the same ratio that TMZ uses of 690ml of Vinegar to 310ml Vodka. I adjusted dosage to equate what I was dosing vinegar wise to provide the same amount of a carbon source. My nitrates quickly became undetectable and PO4 dropped and stayed in a range below .02ppm.

I have actually in the past couple months switched back to dosing just vinegar and my nitrates have gone back to around 2.5-5mg/l and phosphates ranging again around .02-.09ppm.

So, take it for what its worth. But we do know bacteria does consume some form of C:N: P. Plus several other minor and trace elements. With the need of other elements to even metabolism them like Na, K, and Mg.

Interesting. Surely different sources encourage different bacteria. If I get it together perhaps I'll do a mix and start dosing again.

[Thales]

Originally Posted by sensei

Thales,
do the 2 XHO reefbrite strips give you something you like now that you run them with the G4s? I ask becuase I understand when you used them with the Halides, but now with the G4s, what is the purpose of the strips?
or you are using them because you already had them?
do you run the strip just in dusk and dawn?
blue strips correct?

Thanks

The strips help prevent the heavy showing that you often get from LED 'main' lights. Yes blue strips. I am a fan of 'more blue' so this way I get that along with the less blue light from the radions.

[SantaMonica]

And the forums are filled with reports of Phosphate not budging with carbon dosing.

This probably occurs from the P in their rock. The growing bacteria must have P of course, and it must come from somewhere. And those folks are dosing because of "nutrient problems" that have been building, so there is most probably a lot of P coming out of the rock.

[tmz]

Thanks for the detail on the leds. I'm considering changing over one of my sps tanks from mh /vho actinic with reefbrites. Did switch over one tank form 175 20K MH which is more lps with some sps and it's doing fine . I still use the reefbrtites on that one too.

[tmz]

Originally Posted by Thales

Interesting. Surely different sources encourage different bacteria. If I get it together perhaps I'll do a mix and start dosing again.

Perhaps, the acetobacter( that oxidize the ehtanol to acetic acid ) take up a bit more than those metabolizing the acetate; maybe not. The vodka vinegar mix does well for me in reducing phosphate and nitrogen as seen in a nitrate reduction overtime and maintaining both at relatively low levels in a heavily fed system. .
Your tank as pictured looks fine with high nutrients ,though: so I'm not sure I'd change much. Might try to keep them somewhat constant particulary phosphate at a level of your choice given the many roles it plays like ATP energizing the calcioblastic fluid and calcification alterations by high PO4., protein phosphorylation, dna, phospholipids et alia.

[tmz]

Originally Posted by SantaMonica

This probably occurs from the P in their rock. The growing bacteria must have P of course, and it must come from somewhere. And those folks are dosing because of "nutrient problems" that have been building, so there is most probably a lot of P coming out of the rock.

Could be in some cases where PO4 is high at the start ; eventually it should equilibriate if PO4 from the water column is kept relatively low.

[tmz]

Apparently we see them differently.

Don't take this the wrong way; not trying to be picky. Did you mean conformation bias or confirmation bias? I know what the later means ; not sure of the contextual meaning of the former.

[tmz]

Originally Posted by Thales

And the forums are filled with reports of Phosphate not budging with carbon dosing. The reality and the theory don't seem to mesh up in aquaria at least anecdotally. Conformation bias is hard to account for in anecdote!

Apparently we interpret what we've read and observed differently or reviewed different things.
Not to be picky; but did you mean confirmation bias or conformation bias? I know what the former means in psychology and skepticism and it seems to be the same as your earlier explaination as to why a survey could be refuted or interpreted with a positive response translatable to a negative which left me puzzled as to why you would you'd favor a false trail by suggesting a survey in the first place. If you mean conformation bias I'm not sure of your meaning in the context of this discussion. Perhaps you could clarify.

[reefmutt]

Speaking of clarification, I'd LOVE some here.. this is way beyond me..

Originally Posted by tmz

Might try to keep them somewhat constant particulary phosphate at a level of your choice given the many roles it plays like ATP energizing the calcioblastic fluid and calcification alterations by high PO4., protein phosphorylation, dna, phospholipids et alia.

[tmz]

Matt; It's just a partial list of known biological functions where phosphate is used by organisms including corals and a suggestion that sharp variations in availablility may stress the organisms as they adjust.
Often discussions about phosphate are confined to it's contribution to nuisance algae and cyano bacteria and it's effect in altering the growth of skeltal coral mass . It plays a more complex role than that in living things.

[reefmutt]

Thanks. Yes, it seems to me that sps in particular are sensitive to those shifts. In my experience, they seem to be more stressed by the drops in p than increase but clearly each shift requires an adaptation by the coral.
Sorry Rich, I'm sure you won't mind a tiny chemistry lesson deviation in your thread..
Tom, would you tell me what ATP stands for and what protein phosphorylation is, please?

[Acronic]

ATP is essentially the intracellular transfer of energy or food (chemicals) used for metabolism

ATP stands for adenosine triphosphate

Picture it as a school bus that picks up the energy from school and brings it home to the cell

[tmz]

Nice explanation Acronic.

In calcification the ATP provides energy to transfer calcium taken up by coral polyps to the calcioblastic fluid( extracytoplasmic calcifying fluid/ECF) from which the calcium carbonate skeletal matrix is formed.

As I understand it ,protein phosphorylation and dephosphorylation are ezymatic activities that ,respectively, add and subtract charged additions including phosphate to amino acids which help organisms adjust to changing conditions and to modifiy amino acids and protein chains. Someone else may chime in and be able to offer a clearer explanation.

[Acronic]

Haha thanks Tom.

My apologies for my crude understanding of the matter. Unfortunately, I learned how to run before I could walk in biology

[tmz]

No apology needed .My comment wasn't meant to be sarcasm. I really think your explanation was elegant,concise and understandable. I just added a bit of specificity on where the energy bus stops are in the calcification process.

[Acronic]

Excellent! If you ever require a layman translation in your guy

[tmz]

You bet. Colorful wrasse in your avatar; what is it?