KZ's 66 G Build -- Need help!

kzaveri19 · 06/28/2016, 01:17 PM

I just put up my new SC Aquariums 66G PNP system on the cabinet. The tank has three holes for building a herbie/beanie style overflow system (Overflow + Return + Emergency).

I have taken a few pictures of the parts I received with the tank. Please help me set up the plumbing and let me know if I would need additional parts to do that. I would like to set this up right the first time and there is no better place to ask for help than here.

homer1475 · 06/28/2016, 01:33 PM

SCA tanks are drilled and sent plumbing for a herbie style drain(One full siphon, one emergency, and a return) all within the overflow tower. The T piece is for the returns.

I personally threw all the plumbing that came with the tank out, and built my own. You'll find the knockoff loc-line wont match up to real loc-line, sometimes the plumbing is metric instead of american standard so running to lowes or HD for plumbing doesn't work. Bulkheads are sometimes metric also. Just check it out to make sure.

My overflow has the full siphon on the left, middle hole is return, right hole is emergency. Have a look in my build thread for the plumbing. I'm assuming you have all 3 holes as 1 inch? Thats how my 80G was sent.

EDIT:
Should have posted this in the Tank Journals section.

soulpatch · 06/28/2016, 01:40 PM

First did you get the non metric plumbing? If so it would all be 1 inch and you can use PVC from Home Depot or the like.

1. Put all bulkheads (remember that the rubber gasket goes INSIDE the tank and not on the bottom)

2. The T bar is your return and will go in the center hole

3. Scrape rest of the plumbing IMHO

4. Go to http://gmacreef.com/herbie-overflow-...method-basics/ and read up on the Herbie. To run Bean animal you would need to bring the return over the back of the tank.

5. Go to Home Depot and buy 1" PVC pipe, 2 45s, and a slip fit strainer

6. Make a section of PVC pipe with the strainer on the end that when you put in the overflow is a minimum of 6" below the bottom of the weir teeth. This is your main drain.

7. Make a section of pipe and cut some small pieces to put the 45s on them. should look like the following. The 45s are just to push the opening of the emergency behind the return plumbing:

|
/
|

No fitting is needed on the emergency and it should be at your weir teeth. (I have mine roughly 1/2 up the weir teeth so that I dont have any water entering save for when needed)

In stand you merely have 2 lines run from the drain and the emergency bulkheads to the sump. Just use 45s and the PVC you bought at Home depot to get it there. The return will go from pump to that bulkhead. I recommend a portion of master flex pvc which can be glued into standard pvc fittings but it dampens vibrations.

Plenty of builds in the tank journal forum that show how we have all hooked up our tank's plumbing.

kzaveri19 · 06/28/2016, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by homer1475

SCA tanks are drilled and sent plumbing for a herbie style drain(One full siphon, one emergency, and a return) all within the overflow tower. The T piece is for the returns.

I personally threw all the plumbing that came with the tank out, and built my own. You'll find the knockoff loc-line wont match up to real loc-line, sometimes the plumbing is metric instead of american standard so running to lowes or HD for plumbing doesn't work. Bulkheads are sometimes metric also. Just check it out to make sure.

My overflow has the full siphon on the left, middle hole is return, right hole is emergency. Have a look in my build thread for the plumbing. I'm assuming you have all 3 holes as 1 inch? Thats how my 80G was sent.

EDIT:
Should have posted this in the Tank Journals section.

Thank you! I am going through your thread now. Where did you by all this stuff? Home Depot or BRS?

soulpatch · 06/28/2016, 01:42 PM

I would get the valves from BRS or Amazon as Home Depot will not have the good quality ball valves and they do not sell gate valves.

PVC you can get from HD. If you shop them online you can even get the colored PVC BRS sells for MUCH cheaper...

Blink2824 · 06/28/2016, 01:44 PM

What Homer said. If you look at his and Soulpatch build threads you will learn a lot and have two great examples of clean and accurate plumbing/builds. I'm running a Herbie overflow on my SCA150 and it's quiet and is working great so far. Best of luck with the build!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

homer1475 · 06/28/2016, 01:49 PM

I got all my plumbing from BRS, I liked the colored plastic.

HD or Lowes would be fine for parts, but I would definitly pony up for the BRS valves. You'll want quality valves as you'll be fiddling with them constantly for the first few weeks. Heck I still have to fiddle with the drain gate every couple days(Herbie setup is not a setup and forget drain, and this is why the bean animal was designed).

You could always still do a Bean Animal drain, but would have to have your returns come over the back of the tank. All 3 internl holes would be used for the drains. I could do mine that way, but I didn't want the returns over the back of the tank. You might not be bale to do a Bean Animal as your overflow might be a little to small.

homer1475 · 06/28/2016, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soulpatch

First did you get the non metric plumbing? If so it would all be 1 inch and you can use PVC from Home Depot or the like.

1. Put all bulkheads (remember that the rubber gasket goes INSIDE the tank and not on the bottom)

2. The T bar is your return and will go in the center hole

3. Scrape rest of the plumbing IMHO

4. Go to http://gmacreef.com/herbie-overflow-...method-basics/ and read up on the Herbie. To run Bean animal you would need to bring the return over the back of the tank.

5. Go to Home Depot and buy 1" PVC pipe, 2 45s, and a slip fit strainer

6. Make a section of PVC pipe with the strainer on the end that when you put in the overflow is a minimum of 6" below the bottom of the weir teeth. This is your main drain.

7. Make a section of pipe and cut some small pieces to put the 45s on them. should look like the following. The 45s are just to push the opening of the emergency behind the return plumbing:

|
/
|

No fitting is needed on the emergency and it should be at your weir teeth. (I have mine roughly 1/2 up the weir teeth so that I dont have any water entering save for when needed)

In stand you merely have 2 lines run from the drain and the emergency bulkheads to the sump. Just use 45s and the PVC you bought at Home depot to get it there. The return will go from pump to that bulkhead. I recommend a portion of master flex pvc which can be glued into standard pvc fittings but it dampens vibrations.

Plenty of builds in the tank journal forum that show how we have all hooked up our tank's plumbing.

Wow I never thought of doing a 45 on the emergency!(blonde moment?) I would love to bring up the water level slightly in my tank, but am limited to the emergency height being just below the T return pipe.

soulpatch · 06/28/2016, 02:04 PM

That is why I used 2 45s. I am still vertical for the pipe opening but the 45s allowed me to be behind the return plumbing. My water level is pretty much at my eurobrace due to this which I like...

I think I will redo it all anyway in the next week or so when I get into my sump replacement. I will probably switch to bean and bring the return over the back and through the canopy so I dont have to worry about any adjustments moving forward.

KZ - I suggest you read up on the differences between herbie and bean and make your decision with which one you want to do. Bean allows you to not have to adjust much at all after initial tuning but requires the returns over the back of tank. Herbie allows everything to be concealed in the overflow but requires a bit more tuning over time.

kzaveri19 · 06/28/2016, 02:14 PM

Just opened the skimmer body packaging and that was cracked .. LOL ..

kzaveri19 · 06/28/2016, 02:33 PM

I confirmed with Steve. He said that 1" bulkheads will fit the tank. This one does not have metric holes and will fit SCH 40 plumbing.

homer1475 · 06/28/2016, 02:40 PM

Yeah my skimmer body was also cracked. Just shoot Steve an email or give him a call. He replaced mine, and even sent it priority mail!

Sorry you've had such a rough time, but its all in the shipping and handling, and their the ones to blame. Your lucky though that you bought from SCA, as Steve is a great guy and definitely goes above and beyond to help out his customers.

kzaveri19 · 06/29/2016, 07:44 AM

Filled the tank and sump with some water to make sure that the bottom is not leaking. I saw that water was flowing towards the back of the tank. I figured the level I had was either broken or defective and got a new one.

As I suspected, while the tank is perfectly level from side to side, it is off from front to back (see attached pics). It slopes downward from front to back a bit.

I don't know if this is tolerable or not. Should I take the tank down and re-level the stand?

The floor of my apartment is vinyl so I suspect that the weight of water may eventually level it out to some extent.

See attached pics.

Off to Home depot for the PVC and other supplies soulpatch suggested for a herbie system. Ordered the gate valve on Amazon last night while I was reading up on gmacreef.com

Thank you friends!

soulpatch · 06/29/2016, 08:10 AM

I would level it personally. Better to do it now before you have all the water and such in there. That said though the return will be pushing the water towards the front of the tank so the water line will not be level anyway regardless of what you do.

My tank is perfectly level yet when it is running you would think it is leaning forward somewhat as my returns hit the front corners and as such the water level is slightly higher on the front of the tank then the rear.

Since you are going to Home Depot make sure you get some unions as well. They allow disconnecting part of the plumbing without having to cut anything to make repairs, clean, or change out equipment.

While not "needed" if you look at my setup I actually have union ball valves on all of my lines from the tank. This allows me to turn off all flow from the tank and disconnect my sump or full plumbing lines if needed. It is a nice to have feature to be able to isolate things and pull plumbing lines without a hassle as I will see first hand when I swap my sump...

Also while at Home Depot get yourself some spa flex. It is like masterflex line but it is not nearly as flexible. You get get it in certain lengths cut for you in 1" diameter pieces. It glues to your PVC fittings same as PVC pipe.

Should you wish to paint your PVC and make it pretty go to Ace Hardware and buy some Krylon Fusion. Apparently the line has ben discontinued and Ace Hardware and Amazon are only places I can ever find it.

kzaveri19 · 06/29/2016, 09:03 AM

@Soulpatch .. I got this gate valve (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...A1T1R9Q3ML5YGI)

I am also planning to get these shims (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...A1B7M9EQGNCLQA)

These seem to be better than the crappy ones I picked up from HD.

I just don't want to take the tank down to shim it again. Is there anyway to do it without taking it down ..???

soulpatch · 06/29/2016, 09:44 AM

I guess it all depends on if you can get behind the tank stand to put some shims.

You need to have contact points on the bottom read of the stand and not merely on the sides. If you have a friend, wife, gf, crackhead from the street you gave $10 to just have them lean the tank and stand slightly as needed for you to get the shims in.

kzaveri19 · 06/29/2016, 11:21 AM

Might use a pair of heavy duty double suction cups to lift the aquarium off the stand and shim it properly.

kzaveri19 · 07/01/2016, 08:50 AM

Levelled the tank by reshimming it. Now to plumbing! Got some supplies from HD, PVC pipes and slip 45's. My questions:

1) What do I use to glue the slip fittings onto the PVC? I got Oatey rain-n-shine medium blue cement. (see attached pic).

2) Should I get slip or threaded unions?

3) got a pipe cutter and sandpaper? Do I need anything else?

4) Bought this gate valve (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1). How should I connect it to the threaded bulkhead?

Thanks
KZ

kzaveri19 · 07/01/2016, 10:26 AM

Just to fix typo. The bulkheads are slips from the inside.

hipertec · 07/02/2016, 08:33 AM

How do you plumb the 45 angle on your emergency hole? Where would you put this?

dreaddinit · 07/03/2016, 09:38 AM

I have the 80 SCA and got the same parts. Listen to these guys. They know what they are talking about. I kept all of the pvc and bulkheads but threw the rest away. Under the cabinet I built all my own from scratch. Home depot has what you need.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

hipertec · 07/03/2016, 01:06 PM

This thread has been informative. Have you started to plumb your tank yet and can you take a picture of the setup?
Im about to start mine too for the 50G Cube.
Do you need a check valve in the drain pipe for safety reasons?
Ill be going with a Herbie overflow setup.

kzaveri19 · 07/04/2016, 08:50 AM

Happy 4th Friends. !! Thank you so much for your hep Soulpatch. I finally did enough plumbing to make the tank work. Attached are pics, explanations below.

Hipertec. Please take my design under advisement, I am not sure if this is right or wrong.

1) All three bulkheads seem to be holding up. Gaskets are on the INSIDE. There is a slight leak (very slight, not dripping. Its like moisture buildup) in the return bulkhead.

I think the problem is that I may have pushed the return PVC to hard into the bulkhead when I glued them together. It was challenging to connect the couplings for the Loc lines, which is where, I think the pipe got pulled out slightly and there is a small gap in the bulkhead.

There is a slight bow in the return T-Coupling. This is because the line was too short when it came attached
to the bulkhead. I tried running this without loc lines but it was too messy.

Any suggestions to fix this will be much appreciated.

2) I have been running this tank with tap water since last night to check for leaks and other issues. I ran it with the gate valve closed allowing all overflow through the emergency. I am not sure if this is a problem, but the Emergency overflow PVC vibrates a lot (see video). https://youtu.be/pYNySKdrtuE

Is there a way to reduce the vibrations?

3) For the return, I used the stock vinyl tubing, attached to the stock barbed x slip coupling, glued to a union. Please let me know if this is a problem. I found it very challenging to come up with a way to hard plumb the return and I am planning to upgrade my return pump to a DC in a few months so I did not want to spend to much time on it.

Any suggestions on the return will be helpful

4) The return pump keeps shutting off every half hour and then coming back on after 20 minutes. Steve sent an Atman 3000 with my tank.
Has anyone else experienced this issue? Is there a fix?

Attached are pictures. Please let me know if this looks ok and if there are any changes I need to make.

thank you so much !!!

kzaveri19 · 07/04/2016, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hipertec

This thread has been informative. Have you started to plumb your tank yet and can you take a picture of the setup?
Im about to start mine too for the 50G Cube.
Do you need a check valve in the drain pipe for safety reasons?
Ill be going with a Herbie overflow setup.

I haven't used checkvalves. I used the method that souldpatch told me to use.

hipertec · 07/04/2016, 09:21 AM

I believe if the emergency pipe is used, you want it to make alot of noise so it signals that the drain has stopped.

as for the return, I read that it is best to stay away from 90" bends. I will be using a 45" bend to a barb.

Can you take a picture of inside the overflow? I read the emergency show be 1" lower than the overflow teeth and the drain pipe is 7" lower than the overflow teeth. Can anyone confirm this is correct for a Herbie Method?

06/28/2016, 01:33 PM	#2
homer1475 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 5,313	SCA tanks are drilled and sent plumbing for a herbie style drain(One full siphon, one emergency, and a return) all within the overflow tower. The T piece is for the returns. I personally threw all the plumbing that came with the tank out, and built my own. You'll find the knockoff loc-line wont match up to real loc-line, sometimes the plumbing is metric instead of american standard so running to lowes or HD for plumbing doesn't work. Bulkheads are sometimes metric also. Just check it out to make sure. My overflow has the full siphon on the left, middle hole is return, right hole is emergency. Have a look in my build thread for the plumbing. I'm assuming you have all 3 holes as 1 inch? Thats how my 80G was sent. EDIT: Should have posted this in the Tank Journals section. __________________ 80G SCA Build: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2560256 Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht: "He's just taking his lunch to work"

06/28/2016, 01:40 PM	#3
soulpatch Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Downingtown, PA Posts: 4,017	First did you get the non metric plumbing? If so it would all be 1 inch and you can use PVC from Home Depot or the like. 1. Put all bulkheads (remember that the rubber gasket goes INSIDE the tank and not on the bottom) 2. The T bar is your return and will go in the center hole 3. Scrape rest of the plumbing IMHO 4. Go to http://gmacreef.com/herbie-overflow-...method-basics/ and read up on the Herbie. To run Bean animal you would need to bring the return over the back of the tank. 5. Go to Home Depot and buy 1" PVC pipe, 2 45s, and a slip fit strainer 6. Make a section of PVC pipe with the strainer on the end that when you put in the overflow is a minimum of 6" below the bottom of the weir teeth. This is your main drain. 7. Make a section of pipe and cut some small pieces to put the 45s on them. should look like the following. The 45s are just to push the opening of the emergency behind the return plumbing: \| / \| No fitting is needed on the emergency and it should be at your weir teeth. (I have mine roughly 1/2 up the weir teeth so that I dont have any water entering save for when needed) In stand you merely have 2 lines run from the drain and the emergency bulkheads to the sump. Just use 45s and the PVC you bought at Home depot to get it there. The return will go from pump to that bulkhead. I recommend a portion of master flex pvc which can be glued into standard pvc fittings but it dampens vibrations. Plenty of builds in the tank journal forum that show how we have all hooked up our tank's plumbing. __________________ 150 SC tank build: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2550948 Some have bar tabs. I have a coral tab at my LFS. Life goals.

06/28/2016, 01:42 PM	#5
soulpatch Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Downingtown, PA Posts: 4,017	I would get the valves from BRS or Amazon as Home Depot will not have the good quality ball valves and they do not sell gate valves. PVC you can get from HD. If you shop them online you can even get the colored PVC BRS sells for MUCH cheaper... __________________ 150 SC tank build: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2550948 Some have bar tabs. I have a coral tab at my LFS. Life goals.

06/28/2016, 01:49 PM	#7
homer1475 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 5,313	I got all my plumbing from BRS, I liked the colored plastic. HD or Lowes would be fine for parts, but I would definitly pony up for the BRS valves. You'll want quality valves as you'll be fiddling with them constantly for the first few weeks. Heck I still have to fiddle with the drain gate every couple days(Herbie setup is not a setup and forget drain, and this is why the bean animal was designed). You could always still do a Bean Animal drain, but would have to have your returns come over the back of the tank. All 3 internl holes would be used for the drains. I could do mine that way, but I didn't want the returns over the back of the tank. You might not be bale to do a Bean Animal as your overflow might be a little to small. __________________ 80G SCA Build: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2560256 Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht: "He's just taking his lunch to work"

06/28/2016, 02:04 PM	#9
soulpatch Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Downingtown, PA Posts: 4,017	That is why I used 2 45s. I am still vertical for the pipe opening but the 45s allowed me to be behind the return plumbing. My water level is pretty much at my eurobrace due to this which I like... I think I will redo it all anyway in the next week or so when I get into my sump replacement. I will probably switch to bean and bring the return over the back and through the canopy so I dont have to worry about any adjustments moving forward. KZ - I suggest you read up on the differences between herbie and bean and make your decision with which one you want to do. Bean allows you to not have to adjust much at all after initial tuning but requires the returns over the back of tank. Herbie allows everything to be concealed in the overflow but requires a bit more tuning over time. __________________ 150 SC tank build: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2550948 Some have bar tabs. I have a coral tab at my LFS. Life goals.

06/28/2016, 01:44 PM	#6
Blink2824 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 52	What Homer said. If you look at his and Soulpatch build threads you will learn a lot and have two great examples of clean and accurate plumbing/builds. I'm running a Herbie overflow on my SCA150 and it's quiet and is working great so far. Best of luck with the build! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

06/28/2016, 02:14 PM	#10
kzaveri19 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 143	Just opened the skimmer body packaging and that was cracked .. LOL ..

06/28/2016, 02:33 PM	#11
kzaveri19 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 143	I confirmed with Steve. He said that 1" bulkheads will fit the tank. This one does not have metric holes and will fit SCH 40 plumbing.

06/28/2016, 02:40 PM	#12
homer1475 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 5,313	Yeah my skimmer body was also cracked. Just shoot Steve an email or give him a call. He replaced mine, and even sent it priority mail! Sorry you've had such a rough time, but its all in the shipping and handling, and their the ones to blame. Your lucky though that you bought from SCA, as Steve is a great guy and definitely goes above and beyond to help out his customers. __________________ 80G SCA Build: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2560256 Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht: "He's just taking his lunch to work"

06/29/2016, 08:10 AM	#14
soulpatch Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Downingtown, PA Posts: 4,017	I would level it personally. Better to do it now before you have all the water and such in there. That said though the return will be pushing the water towards the front of the tank so the water line will not be level anyway regardless of what you do. My tank is perfectly level yet when it is running you would think it is leaning forward somewhat as my returns hit the front corners and as such the water level is slightly higher on the front of the tank then the rear. Since you are going to Home Depot make sure you get some unions as well. They allow disconnecting part of the plumbing without having to cut anything to make repairs, clean, or change out equipment. While not "needed" if you look at my setup I actually have union ball valves on all of my lines from the tank. This allows me to turn off all flow from the tank and disconnect my sump or full plumbing lines if needed. It is a nice to have feature to be able to isolate things and pull plumbing lines without a hassle as I will see first hand when I swap my sump... Also while at Home Depot get yourself some spa flex. It is like masterflex line but it is not nearly as flexible. You get get it in certain lengths cut for you in 1" diameter pieces. It glues to your PVC fittings same as PVC pipe. Should you wish to paint your PVC and make it pretty go to Ace Hardware and buy some Krylon Fusion. Apparently the line has ben discontinued and Ace Hardware and Amazon are only places I can ever find it. __________________ 150 SC tank build: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2550948 Some have bar tabs. I have a coral tab at my LFS. Life goals.

06/29/2016, 09:03 AM	#15
kzaveri19 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 143	@Soulpatch .. I got this gate valve (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...A1T1R9Q3ML5YGI) I am also planning to get these shims (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...A1B7M9EQGNCLQA) These seem to be better than the crappy ones I picked up from HD. I just don't want to take the tank down to shim it again. Is there anyway to do it without taking it down ..???

06/29/2016, 09:44 AM	#16
soulpatch Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Downingtown, PA Posts: 4,017	I guess it all depends on if you can get behind the tank stand to put some shims. You need to have contact points on the bottom read of the stand and not merely on the sides. If you have a friend, wife, gf, crackhead from the street you gave $10 to just have them lean the tank and stand slightly as needed for you to get the shims in. __________________ 150 SC tank build: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2550948 Some have bar tabs. I have a coral tab at my LFS. Life goals.

06/29/2016, 11:21 AM	#17
kzaveri19 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 143	Might use a pair of heavy duty double suction cups to lift the aquarium off the stand and shim it properly.

07/01/2016, 10:26 AM	#19
kzaveri19 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 143	Just to fix typo. The bulkheads are slips from the inside.

07/02/2016, 08:33 AM	#20
hipertec Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Southern California (Inland Empire) Posts: 1,266	How do you plumb the 45 angle on your emergency hole? Where would you put this?

07/03/2016, 09:38 AM	#21
dreaddinit Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 190	I have the 80 SCA and got the same parts. Listen to these guys. They know what they are talking about. I kept all of the pvc and bulkheads but threw the rest away. Under the cabinet I built all my own from scratch. Home depot has what you need. Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

07/03/2016, 01:06 PM	#22
hipertec Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Southern California (Inland Empire) Posts: 1,266	This thread has been informative. Have you started to plumb your tank yet and can you take a picture of the setup? Im about to start mine too for the 50G Cube. Do you need a check valve in the drain pipe for safety reasons? Ill be going with a Herbie overflow setup.

07/04/2016, 09:21 AM	#25
hipertec Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Southern California (Inland Empire) Posts: 1,266	I believe if the emergency pipe is used, you want it to make alot of noise so it signals that the drain has stopped. as for the return, I read that it is best to stay away from 90" bends. I will be using a 45" bend to a barb. Can you take a picture of inside the overflow? I read the emergency show be 1" lower than the overflow teeth and the drain pipe is 7" lower than the overflow teeth. Can anyone confirm this is correct for a Herbie Method?