Xenia refugium vs. ATS

[AquaTDV]

Originally Posted by knight2255

I took down my ATS a couple months ago when I redid my return plumbing.

I wonder if I can use the old diy led arrays off my ATS to light up a xenia fuge? The leds would be 10:2:2 red/blue/uv over a 20g fuge......would that spectrum be totally out of wack?

From my experience it all depends on the intensity of the LEDs. I would cautiously try it first, if they start to look lethargic I would change the light immediately. I have experienced good growth and color under my Reefbreeder LEDs,l see even better colors than under my MHs. I just don't see quite the same growth.

Originally Posted by jrsp12

Aqua you mentioned to cycle the skimmer to get the greatest growth from the Xenia. Can you explain the reasoning behind this? It seems not running the skimmer would be more beneficial since you would not be pulling nutrients away from the Xenia.

The goal is to be skimmerless.... However if you were to turn the skimmer off all of a sudden in a well established system this could have a real negative effect on the system until the massive nutrient void is filled, with either desirable or undesirable nutrient export growth. This is why doing it slow and controlling the growth rate is important. You do not want something to out compete it initially like bryopsis or another invasive algae. You will want to control the growth of micro and macro algaes with the growth of the Xenia. Xenia will only grow to meet the demands of the system and from my experience no more. The population ebbs and flows with the current demands of the system. The hard part is finding that balance, and from my experience for maximum growth when getting your colony established to fit the needs of your system cycling your skimmer on and off (or just leave it dirty so it isn't as efficient) is the best way.

[BryanLW]

Very interesting topic. Thanks for sharing. Question for you...

I'm currently running a GFO reactor, Carbon reactor, and a biopellet reactor. I'm assuming I can eliminate all three on a 600 gal(total water volume) system if I had a large enough fuge for xenia? Also running a skimmer big enough for a 800 gal aquarium.

Second question would be how big of fuge for xenia would you think I need. Space in tank room a bit limited.

Reason I'm looking at options is that my gfo lasts about two weeks as carbon from calcium reactor seems to choke it out faster than it can export nutrients which can be costly over a year. I like the idea of some kind of income from aquarium.

Thanks for help!

[guserto4]

BryanLV, personally I like the idea of running multiple filtration formats as you are doing right now but I bet you could substantially cut down on media turnover if you added Xenia. From what I've deduced it sounds like you could go upwards of a 100g Xenia tank if you have 600g total water volume. But I'd do 2 or 3 29g so that you have that controllability if one tank starts to wain you can tune down the system and isololate it before it starts to crash and goofs everything else up.

After watching this thread (so glad this thing's got a little bit of legs! -- and keeping in mind I stick by the idea of multiple filtration methods for scalability and coverage of filtration) I'm thinking my system will look like this:

First flr.
100g DT (to be eventually upgraded to the 300g in the garage that won't fit in this house)

Basement
20g brute Swirl filter / sump branching in parallel to:

20g Xenia tank
20g ATS tank (ATS sq. in. undersized)
Aqua-C EV180 (skimmer undersized)

Back to:
44g brute of live rock

Then:
20g brute sump w/ return pump @ 1000gph

[Jone]

Really like the idea of a Xenia fuge,but is there any info or pictures how it is incorporated in the by the sump..would love to see/know in what order would you place the xenia fuge..Before the skimmer or after and then so on..

[Cloudburst2000]

I might try this idea when setting up my new tank. I was planning on doing an ATS but I may try this first.

[Lonelyreef]

I have a few friends that use a softie type display for nutrient export rather than algae. I really like the display refugiums over the old tank of green stuff myself

[Kirkwood77]

Aqua,

Can you explain how the Xenia actually exports/stores nutrients, nitrates, and phosphates? It seems to me like the Xenia is working like a skimmer where it takes up nutrients before they have a chance to break down and convert to nitrates and phosphates.

But in an SPS tank is the xenia outcompeting other corals for valuable nutrients like calcium, carbonate (alk), magnesium, iodide, amino acids, etc. My point here is that I don't want to pay to boost my dosing regimen just to keep up with the needs of the xenia just so that these valuable nutrients are still available for my SPS.

[mess7777]

I have a bunch of xenia in my sump due to not wanting to throw extra in the garbage. I find it doesn't grow as quickly in my sump as the DT, but I do also have an ATS in the same chamber. I can also warn that when cutting and fragging xenia it is very easy to lose a piece in the process and find a little bud popping up at a new place in the tank. This is when it starts to become the weed we all fear!

[AquaTDV]

Originally Posted by Kirkwood77

Aqua,

Can you explain how the Xenia actually exports/stores nutrients, nitrates, and phosphates? It seems to me like the Xenia is working like a skimmer where it takes up nutrients before they have a chance to break down and convert to nitrates and phosphates.

But in an SPS tank is the xenia outcompeting other corals for valuable nutrients like calcium, carbonate (alk), magnesium, iodide, amino acids, etc. My point here is that I don't want to pay to boost my dosing regimen just to keep up with the needs of the xenia just so that these valuable nutrients are still available for my SPS.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature This article will explain what your skimmer is actually pulling from your system.

I don't necessarily believe that Xenia directly remove N and P from the system. I still need to run GFO periodically to bring down my PO4 levels. However like you said it acts like a skimmer pulling dissolved organic mater from the water. Moreover the fact that Xenia does grow and multiply much faster with the skimmer off does seem to support the hypothesis that Xenia and skimmers compete for the same nutrients, and yes the Xenia does deplete other trace elements from the system similar to a protein skimmer. However I don't believe it does this to the same degree as an efficient skimmer. Especially when your producing "wet skimmate". This is where Xenia, ATS, and large macro fuge hold an advantage over skimmers. When using a natural filtration source it will ebb and flow with the available nutrients.
I am still a fan of skimmers, but I use it as a tool, not the foundation of my entire filtration system. Then if the skimmer fails so does the system. I always try to hedge when it comes to my system.

[aquaenthusiast]

Originally Posted by AquaTDV

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature This article will explain what your skimmer is actually pulling from your system.

I don't necessarily believe that Xenia directly remove N and P from the system. I still need to run GFO periodically to bring down my PO4 levels. However like you said it acts like a skimmer pulling dissolved organic mater from the water. Moreover the fact that Xenia does grow and multiply much faster with the skimmer off does seem to support the hypothesis that Xenia and skimmers compete for the same nutrients, and yes the Xenia does deplete other trace elements from the system similar to a protein skimmer. However I don't believe it does this to the same degree as an efficient skimmer. Especially when your producing "wet skimmate". This is where Xenia, ATS, and large macro fuge hold an advantage over skimmers. When using a natural filtration source it will ebb and flow with the available nutrients.
I am still a fan of skimmers, but I use it as a tool, not the foundation of my entire filtration system. Then if the skimmer fails so does the system. I always try to hedge when it comes to my system.

I like your way of thinking

[jasin401]

Bumping this up, and hopefully adding something like this in the very near future to my setup.

I'll post pics when up and running

Awesome tank and info AquaTDV

[DavidinGA]

I didn't read more than the threads topic but...

I would go with an ats over xenia ten times out if ten. Xenia will melt away when your nutrient levels get low enough; then what will you have for filtration?

[AquaTDV]

Originally Posted by jasin401

Bumping this up, and hopefully adding something like this in the very near future to my setup.

I'll post pics when up and running

Awesome tank and info AquaTDV

Thank you, and Good Luck!

[AquaTDV]

Originally Posted by DavidinGA

I didn't read more than the threads topic but...

I would go with an ats over xenia ten times out if ten. Xenia will melt away when your nutrient levels get low enough; then what will you have for filtration?

Why not do both? They both have their merits. I've been employing the same filtration methods for over a decade without a crash. In fact in 20 years of reefing I cannot ever recall having one of these catastrophic Xenia crashes people talk about. My coral will die from lack of nutrients before the Xenia populating crashes. I've had this problem when I don't feed enough (especially when using high grade carbon.) So now I feed 6 times a day with 2 Ehiem auto feeders. 3 times for the fish during the day, and 3 times at night with decapsulated brineshrimp eggs and Reefroids. All this food and I am still skimmerless without any ill effects. Everything looks fantastic!

[PghReef]

I have had xenia in a 46gal reef no sump skimmer or anything and it grows increidably fast and my nitrate levels and phosphate levels always undetectable using the hanna checkers and API/Red Sea kits.

My new 90 build is going to have a sump and I think I will put xenia in there, always did great in my mixed reef and I believe really helps keep nutrient levels in check. I always had to pull handfulls of the stuff otu every week or 2 and if I missed a weeding y ou could tell!!

[PIPSTER]

How about this idea?
If I have some incompatible fish (with each other), wouldn't it work well to have the aggressive fish by itself in a sizable xenia tank, and the rest of the fish, who are non-aggressive in my example, in my DT?

[guserto4]

I've seen them (YouTube) used as nurseries so sure why not?