Seeking input re: quarantine protocol

kryzzystuff · 09/01/2017, 08:17 PM

Hi all,
I am sad to announce that I have encountered ich in my 75g fowlr. I've had the tank up for 4 years and never had an issue before, which I attributed to successful quarantine procedure. However, it obviously appears that I was mistaken. I introduced a newly QT'd coral beauty a week ago and noticed several fish affected today. I have thought up a few theories of what could have happened:

1) Biosecurity failure.
-This would be extremely disappointing, as I am -super- meticulous about not cross-contaminating between my tanks. I do not share any equipment/etc between tanks and am always super cognizant of this matter. My tanks are in different rooms as well. It would be very bad luck.
2) Incorrect use of copper
-Unlikely. I am anal retentive about checking levels BID, and they have always been appropriate.
3)Duration of copper treatment too short.
-I guess? I treat for 4 weeks followed by 2 weeks of prazi/observation. I have never heard anyone recommend a longer copper duration, though I suppose one could do it for a full 72 days to catch any potential late bloomers? Dear god that would be a PITA to do.
4) Copper just sucks for ich treatment

Anyone have other thoughts?
Regardless, I think copper and I need to spend some time apart. As such, I have concocted the following revised quarantine protocol:
1) Formalin bath, then into QT
2) TTM: usual 12 day deal, transfer q72hrs w/ concurrent prazipro
3) Chloroquine (and observation) x 4 weeks. I've never encountered Velvet and plan to keep it that way.
4) One more formalin bath, then into DT

Totally reasonable? Totally overkill? Missing something?

Thanks!!

Jdub968 · 09/01/2017, 08:46 PM

What cu did you use and what test it ? Also explain your qt set up

kryzzystuff · 09/01/2017, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jdub968

What cu did you use and what test it ? Also explain your qt set up

I've always used Cupramine and the corresponding Seachem test kit. I haven't regularly done comparison testing, but a few times I used the Salifert kit and the numbers matched Seachem, fwiw

My QT set up is pretty standard...20 gallon tank with PVC, air stone, heater, thermometer, HOB filter.

JustinM · 09/01/2017, 11:19 PM

Did you sterilize your tank after treating with cupramine? After therapeutic levels are dropped and you treated with prazi, it is possible that a tomont hatched.

Jdub968 · 09/02/2017, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kryzzystuff

I've always used Cupramine and the corresponding Seachem test kit. I haven't regularly done comparison testing, but a few times I used the Salifert kit and the numbers matched Seachem, fwiw

My QT set up is pretty standard...20 gallon tank with PVC, air stone, heater, thermometer, HOB filter.

Shocker has brought up a good point, I was looking in the direction of something pulling the cu out of solution and or the wrong test kit. However my experience with cupramine it seems to get absorbed by everything sponge pvc ect and daily testing is required to keep it at .5 ppm. Also I have yet to see a coral beauty that didn't come down with a parasite they are one fish that always has problems.

kryzzystuff · 09/02/2017, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theshocker

Did you sterilize your tank after treating with cupramine? After therapeutic levels are dropped and you treated with prazi, it is possible that a tomont hatched.

I don't sterilize, and I'm not sure what you mean by that. Sterilize the tank after copper treatment, with bleach, for example, while the fish is somewhere else? No I don't do that. After the copper treatment I just run cuprisorb to get it out and then use prazipro.
But that's basically one of my points: that a tomont hatched after I was done with copper x 4weeks, implying an insufficient duration despite what is commonly considered adequate.

kryzzystuff · 09/02/2017, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jdub968

Shocker has brought up a good point, I was looking in the direction of something pulling the cu out of solution and or the wrong test kit. However my experience with cupramine it seems to get absorbed by everything sponge pvc ect and daily testing is required to keep it at .5 ppm. Also I have yet to see a coral beauty that didn't come down with a parasite they are one fish that always has problems.

Well, I religiously test twice daily (BID), and it has indeed been 0.5ppm or slightly higher at times, but not lower. Once I get it to that level, the clock starts for a 4 week treatment during which I check twice daily and never have to adjust the dose (which is probably just good luck).

JustinM · 09/02/2017, 09:01 AM

If you don't sterilize the tank after copper and/or don't put them in some sort of sterile tank, all it takes is one tomont to hatch to reinfect. It's not practical/nor health to run cupramine or copper for 72 days so sterilization is a must.

The easiest way is to move them to buckets and wipe the whole tank with vinegar and blow dry the tank. It really only takes a couple hours. This in my opinion is the number one reason people become reinfected after what they believe was a successful qt.

kryzzystuff · 09/02/2017, 09:24 AM

Interesting. Thank you for that. So let's say I were to run copper and prazi simultaneously as some people do, then after 4 weeks (of therapeutic cupramine levels) transfer the fish straight to the DT. Said fish would not be exposed to a subtherapeutic/nonexistent copper level in QT at any point, and prazi would already be done. It would be ironic if people who do more rushed qt periods than I did are actually better off.

Regardless, I'm interested in leaving copper on the shelf for now. Anyone have input as to my proposed alternate protocol? I'm about to embark on TTM as my 75 goes fallow.

JustinM · 09/02/2017, 09:50 AM

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2159738

This is a pretty good read. According to this, some tomonts live up to 77 days and it clearly states that decorations, substrate, etc act as an incubator for ich and items must be cleaned if fish are to remain in tank after qt. I wouldn't call it ironic because you didn't know proper qt protocol. Also luck of the draw plays a huge part in ich as well, you never know what you're gonna get.

As for TTM, it works great for ich and you have no need to worry about sterilizing because you're already doing it. I highly recommend 90 days fallow though. That sticky recommends 12 weeks of fallow which is just shy of 90 days.

kryzzystuff · 09/02/2017, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theshocker

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2159738

Thanks. I am familiar with that sticky and think it's great. I don't see any mention there of the need to sterilize a tank after copper treatment. I must have missed it in my reading overall. It certainly makes intuitive sense. You learn something every day. Sometimes the hard way

Best wishes

JustinM · 09/02/2017, 10:57 AM

Under prevention and control, the second paragraph explains it.

Still putting them straight into the display tank can be risky. Ich can encyst on a fishes gills and remain there for the duration until it ruptures releasing the theronts. Fish diseases are very tricky because a lot of what we as hobbyists know, we learn from trial and error, and as you stated in your other thread, there can be a lot of variables.

A lot of people qt new fish for 4-6 weeks and you can follow qt protocol to the "t". Unfortunately, there may have been a tomont on the fish that waits till the 7th week to hatch and now our DT is infected. In a perfect world, it would be ideal to qt fish for 11 weeks before putting in the DT for 100% chance of no infection. Most ich is gone in less than 2 weeks but can last much longer.

kryzzystuff · 09/02/2017, 11:12 AM

Oh yes I see. I'm actually a little mad at myself for not realizing this, as I am familiar with the life cycle. But sometimes it takes asking someone else to point something out.

Absolutely, and I guess that's what makes this hobby fun for those of us who are persistent and don't give up easily with frustration.

Out of curiosity, Shocker, what is your own personal qt regimen?

JustinM · 09/02/2017, 11:27 AM

What I usually do is FW dip as soon as I temp acclimate new arrivals. That lets me know if they go right into copper or prazipro. Regardless, before going into QT they get a rally bath which helps brook and uronema. It's an antiseptic so it also helps if there are any infections and bite marks from ich/velvet.

Most fish come in with flukes so I usually prazi for the 2 weeks and then I ramp up to therapeutic copper over a few days. They sit there for 28 days and then I sterilize my tank(I just swap out my 40 breeders) and remain there for usually 76 days.

I used to qt for 4 weeks but was still getting ich. Everything from coral, to hermit crabs and snails get a min of 76 days.

kryzzystuff · 09/02/2017, 12:01 PM

Thank you, that's very helpful.

09/01/2017, 08:17 PM	#1
kryzzystuff Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 25	Seeking input re: quarantine protocol Hi all, I am sad to announce that I have encountered ich in my 75g fowlr. I've had the tank up for 4 years and never had an issue before, which I attributed to successful quarantine procedure. However, it obviously appears that I was mistaken. I introduced a newly QT'd coral beauty a week ago and noticed several fish affected today. I have thought up a few theories of what could have happened: 1) Biosecurity failure. -This would be extremely disappointing, as I am -super- meticulous about not cross-contaminating between my tanks. I do not share any equipment/etc between tanks and am always super cognizant of this matter. My tanks are in different rooms as well. It would be very bad luck. 2) Incorrect use of copper -Unlikely. I am anal retentive about checking levels BID, and they have always been appropriate. 3)Duration of copper treatment too short. -I guess? I treat for 4 weeks followed by 2 weeks of prazi/observation. I have never heard anyone recommend a longer copper duration, though I suppose one could do it for a full 72 days to catch any potential late bloomers? Dear god that would be a PITA to do. 4) Copper just sucks for ich treatment Anyone have other thoughts? Regardless, I think copper and I need to spend some time apart. As such, I have concocted the following revised quarantine protocol: 1) Formalin bath, then into QT 2) TTM: usual 12 day deal, transfer q72hrs w/ concurrent prazipro 3) Chloroquine (and observation) x 4 weeks. I've never encountered Velvet and plan to keep it that way. 4) One more formalin bath, then into DT Totally reasonable? Totally overkill? Missing something? Thanks!!

09/01/2017, 08:46 PM	#2
Jdub968 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 401	What cu did you use and what test it ? Also explain your qt set up

09/01/2017, 11:19 PM	#4
JustinM Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,215	Did you sterilize your tank after treating with cupramine? After therapeutic levels are dropped and you treated with prazi, it is possible that a tomont hatched.

09/02/2017, 09:01 AM	#8
JustinM Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,215	If you don't sterilize the tank after copper and/or don't put them in some sort of sterile tank, all it takes is one tomont to hatch to reinfect. It's not practical/nor health to run cupramine or copper for 72 days so sterilization is a must. The easiest way is to move them to buckets and wipe the whole tank with vinegar and blow dry the tank. It really only takes a couple hours. This in my opinion is the number one reason people become reinfected after what they believe was a successful qt.

09/02/2017, 09:24 AM	#9
kryzzystuff Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 25	Interesting. Thank you for that. So let's say I were to run copper and prazi simultaneously as some people do, then after 4 weeks (of therapeutic cupramine levels) transfer the fish straight to the DT. Said fish would not be exposed to a subtherapeutic/nonexistent copper level in QT at any point, and prazi would already be done. It would be ironic if people who do more rushed qt periods than I did are actually better off. Regardless, I'm interested in leaving copper on the shelf for now. Anyone have input as to my proposed alternate protocol? I'm about to embark on TTM as my 75 goes fallow.

09/02/2017, 09:50 AM	#10
JustinM Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,215	http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2159738 This is a pretty good read. According to this, some tomonts live up to 77 days and it clearly states that decorations, substrate, etc act as an incubator for ich and items must be cleaned if fish are to remain in tank after qt. I wouldn't call it ironic because you didn't know proper qt protocol. Also luck of the draw plays a huge part in ich as well, you never know what you're gonna get. As for TTM, it works great for ich and you have no need to worry about sterilizing because you're already doing it. I highly recommend 90 days fallow though. That sticky recommends 12 weeks of fallow which is just shy of 90 days.

09/02/2017, 10:57 AM	#12
JustinM Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,215	Under prevention and control, the second paragraph explains it. Still putting them straight into the display tank can be risky. Ich can encyst on a fishes gills and remain there for the duration until it ruptures releasing the theronts. Fish diseases are very tricky because a lot of what we as hobbyists know, we learn from trial and error, and as you stated in your other thread, there can be a lot of variables. A lot of people qt new fish for 4-6 weeks and you can follow qt protocol to the "t". Unfortunately, there may have been a tomont on the fish that waits till the 7th week to hatch and now our DT is infected. In a perfect world, it would be ideal to qt fish for 11 weeks before putting in the DT for 100% chance of no infection. Most ich is gone in less than 2 weeks but can last much longer.

09/02/2017, 11:12 AM	#13
kryzzystuff Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 25	Oh yes I see. I'm actually a little mad at myself for not realizing this, as I am familiar with the life cycle. But sometimes it takes asking someone else to point something out. Absolutely, and I guess that's what makes this hobby fun for those of us who are persistent and don't give up easily with frustration. Out of curiosity, Shocker, what is your own personal qt regimen?

09/02/2017, 11:27 AM	#14
JustinM Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,215	What I usually do is FW dip as soon as I temp acclimate new arrivals. That lets me know if they go right into copper or prazipro. Regardless, before going into QT they get a rally bath which helps brook and uronema. It's an antiseptic so it also helps if there are any infections and bite marks from ich/velvet. Most fish come in with flukes so I usually prazi for the 2 weeks and then I ramp up to therapeutic copper over a few days. They sit there for 28 days and then I sterilize my tank(I just swap out my 40 breeders) and remain there for usually 76 days. I used to qt for 4 weeks but was still getting ich. Everything from coral, to hermit crabs and snails get a min of 76 days.

09/02/2017, 12:01 PM	#15
kryzzystuff Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 25	Thank you, that's very helpful.