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Unread 11/25/2015, 10:10 PM   #1
Titobattilocchi
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Phosphate limited with bio pellet carbon dosing NEED HELP

Tank is a 300gal with a 60 gal sump
Skimmer reef dynamics recirculating 500.2
Reef Dynamics recirculating biopellet reactor for up to 500gal system
Running nopo pellets
Running carbon
Ammonia 10ppm
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 25
Phosphates .015
Dkh 9
Cal 450
Mag 1350

Can't seem to get my nitrates to come down think I might be phosphate limited and was wondering if anybody had dosed phosphates before and what to get and use, or what else I should try. Pellets tumble good reactor eats them up but if I slow down the tumble then they start to clump up together. Not getting as stinky of skim as I thought I would. when first hooked up biopellet reactor after a month skiming was good and nasty smelling. Had lots of hair algea and Cyanobacteria on rocks a few weeks back did a black out on the tank and water changes every couple days 10% but can't get nitrates to come down staying stable right there for about 6 months. Thinking phosphate limited or to much flow coming out of the reactor to quick to colinize righ kind of nitrate removing bactiria.

O ya and my ammonia has always stayed at about 10ppm not sure Y

Any help would be great



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Unread 11/26/2015, 04:49 AM   #2
Dan_P
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Titobattilocchi View Post
Tank is a 300gal with a 60 gal sump
Skimmer reef dynamics recirculating 500.2
Reef Dynamics recirculating biopellet reactor for up to 500gal system
Running nopo pellets
Running carbon
Ammonia 10ppm
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 25
Phosphates .015
Dkh 9
Cal 450
Mag 1350
Step 1. Focus on Ammonia level reduction. Figure out whether the ammonia concentration is actually that high or a testing error. I suspect a testing error or old test kit.

Step 2. Biopellets. Why are using biopellets (I assume you have a new set up)? I would consider taking these off line until you resolve your nitrate problem. Forget about dosing PO4 at this point or tuning the reactor.

Step 3. Nitrate level. Are you sure about the test kit results? Get a second opinion on the nitrate level. If the nitrate level is actually high and staying high the aquarium is generating ammonia which is in turn is oxidized to nitrate and that happens when organic matter is being consumed. Organic matter is food and dying organisms. Are you overfeeding?

Another reason for a high nitrate concentration is weak denitrification or not enough, that is, more nitrate is being generated than is consumed. Stocking an aquarium too quickly would be a way to overwhelm denitrification bacteria. What is in the aquarium?


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Unread 11/26/2015, 10:13 AM   #3
bertoni
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I would get a second opinion on the ammonia result. As long as the level is that high, I am not sure that I'd expect the other levels to drop. That's extremely high.


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Unread 11/26/2015, 10:14 AM   #4
tmz
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Ammonia at 10 ppm is toxic. Are you sure of the measure? Can't conclude much about the nitrate and/or nitrite until that's resolved. Doesn't seem to be a phosphate deficiency based on nuisance algae growth and the reported 0.015ppm.


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Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.
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Unread 11/26/2015, 12:58 PM   #5
Titobattilocchi
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So my tank has been running for about 1.5 years in this new tank.
I will by a salifert test kit on Friday to make sure about ammonia and have the local fish store test the water As Whail and o ya meant .10 ppm on ammonia

Stock List
Zebra eel
Guinea fowl puffer
2 clown fish
Starry blenny
2 triggers
Yellow tang
Purple tang
Fox face
2 other small fish

I feed eel only when he starts coming out of his cave a lot witch is about once every couple weeks. He gets 5 prawns or scallops or mussels.

I feed the puffer small scallops, mussels, clams, prawns but only feed him about 5 of those items a day and the other fish get what's left over from him. Every once and awhile I will drop in some flake food about a pinch maybe two.


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Unread 11/26/2015, 08:07 PM   #6
outy
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You feed way to much

You need to do more water changes. Your A should be 0


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Unread 11/26/2015, 10:32 PM   #7
Titobattilocchi
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I don't believe that I'm feeding to much if my fish are eating all of it with in about 3min from when I put the food in and flake food or pellets only get put in about once a week if that for the other fish. My phosphates only show on the salifer test kit if I test it with the low range test at .015 regular test with it shows 0. I have almost undectible levels of phosphate and that is why I think I'm phosphate limited to get nitrates down with bio pellet reactor. I'm going to get new test kit tomorrow and have local pet store test my water as whaile will post results tomorrow once I find out: hoping it's just the test kit being bad even when the expiration date is still good on it.


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Unread 11/26/2015, 10:38 PM   #8
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O ya almost for got I also have a algea scrubber that I turned on about a month ago to help with the algea and it has not even grown any algea even on it. When I cleaned the tank have been scrubbing down the rock getting algea off of it when doing water changes. Some one at the local pet store I talk to asked about the skimmer and showed me somethings to try on it so I did that yesterday and the skim is coming out much better than what it was so time will tell with that. Figured I better say something so everybody knows. Thanks


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Unread 11/26/2015, 10:55 PM   #9
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Whether the fish eat the food or not isn't that important. Most of what goes in, comes back out. I suspect that the problem is the test kit, but I'd stop feeding and dose some Prime or Amquel until I was sure. I'm glad the skimmer is working better. That might help a lot, given some time.


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Unread 11/26/2015, 11:00 PM   #10
Titobattilocchi
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So I guess why is the bio pellet reactor not bring down nitrates do I have enough phosphates at .015 to bring them down because if I'm feeding and fish are eating and phosphates are always being added shouldn't it start to come down.

Once I find out about tests and if it's wrong or still high will dose with what you recommend thanks for the help. Going to fish store as soon as they open tomorrow.


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Unread 11/26/2015, 11:06 PM   #11
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Our phosphate kits are a bit fuzzy down in that range. I would give the bio-pellet reactor some time to work, but you might need to try some other carbon source. I'm not sure why, but people report different results with different additives. You could consider vinegar or vodka if the pellets don't do something fairly soon.


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Unread 11/27/2015, 09:54 AM   #12
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After efforts with a remote deep sand bed , algae refugia .ats and additional live rock did not reduce them significantly , I used a sulfur denitrator( DIY version) for a then 500 gallon system and brought them to near zero from around 50ppm plus in a few weeks. I removed the sulfur dentrator once the nitrates were lowered . Then I began dosing soluble organics(vodka and vinegar) . This has kept the heavily fed system at PO4 0.02ppm to 0.04ppm per hanah 713 and NO3 at around 0.2ppm per salifert for the last 6 years or so. This is a system full of corals; for a fish only system with high feeding needs , I'd probably use a a sulfur denitrator continuously without dosing organic carbon. Some gfo might be needed if PO4 rises without the organic carbon from the pellets .Alternatively , retiring the sulfur dentiraror and using organic carbon dosing should also work.


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Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

Last edited by tmz; 11/27/2015 at 10:18 AM.
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Unread 11/27/2015, 11:49 AM   #13
Titobattilocchi
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So the ammonia is 0, guys at local pet store checked all the other leaves and they are the same as what I posted. As far as a denitrater I looked at them and did some resurch in the passed few weeks. What is better a coil one or sulfer. Was planning on building one but not sure how big to build it or is there any company's that make a good unit.


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Unread 11/27/2015, 12:18 PM   #14
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I prefer the sufur denitrator. Check the DIY forum ;there is a long thread about them including details on building one if you prefer that route. It's a spilt thread ;so be sure to start on page one which is where the build instructions are.


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Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.
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Unread 11/27/2015, 05:04 PM   #15
Titobattilocchi
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So I ordered a denitrator rated for 400gallons so when I shut down the bio pellet reactor I will have to run gfo for phosphate or can I still run the bio pellet reactor to aid in phosphates and nitrate Removal or is it just a waist. should I have ordered the smaller unit rated for up to a 250gallon even when my system has about 320gallon rough guest


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Unread 11/27/2015, 09:56 PM   #16
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I think the larger unit should be fine. We don't have enough information to make any sort of computation as to the required size for a given tank. A lot depends on the rate of nitrate production, for example.


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Unread 11/27/2015, 10:00 PM   #17
Titobattilocchi
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K thanks I guess I will keep the bio pellet reactor in storage tell I might need it agin


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Unread 11/28/2015, 05:30 PM   #18
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Ok so I have a question on how to run the denitrator. I know if you open the top valve and it smells like rotten eggs you put more flow in to the reactor. But what do you do once you get your nitrates down where you want them do you just keep putting more flow in to the reactor to get your set point, or do you take it off line. What do you do if you go on vacation turn it off if you can't release the gas out the top.


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Unread 11/28/2015, 11:28 PM   #19
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The gas production should slow down when the level gets down towards zero, which should help with vacations. You might need to tune the flow a bit, too, but that's not so clear. The flow rate requirement should depend a lot on the organic load in the water, so it might not change as much as you might think, but I haven't run a nitrate reactor.


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Unread 11/29/2015, 12:20 AM   #20
Titobattilocchi
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K thanks a lot for helping me out


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Unread 11/29/2015, 12:43 AM   #21
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You're welcome. Good luck!


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Unread 11/29/2015, 01:36 AM   #22
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You are welcome.

The larger unit should be fine. You can still determine the amount of sulfur to put in it which relates to the amount of nitrate in the water and the size of the system it serves.. As the nitrate level goes down increasing the flow and/or reducing the amount of sulfur in the reactor can keep it going in an effective way.

I would not personally use organic carbon (pellets, vodka vinegar etc) with the sufur denitrator . The organic carbon can get into the sulfur bed, encouraging heterotrophic bacteria including some that will likely reduce sulfate producing toxic hydrogen sulfide as a by product and or turning the sulfur reactor into more of a carbon reactor.


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Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.
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Unread 11/30/2015, 06:16 PM   #23
Titobattilocchi
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1 more question the gas that is purged from the top of the reactor is it toxic or unsafe for you to be around and if so what are you supposed to do to purge it.


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Unread 11/30/2015, 08:38 PM   #24
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Some of the gas might be hydrogen sulfide, which can be toxic. Your nose will detect the "swamp gas" smell long before the level becomes dangerous, though. Most of the gas should be nitrogen, which is inert.


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Unread 12/01/2015, 12:31 PM   #25
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It won't be very much H2S if any from degassing . I never smelled any or bothered with it but you could pass the air through some hydrated GFO ,somehow if you are concerned. I don' know of anyone who does though . See the toxicity section and removal methods sections of the Wikipedia link for details:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_sulfide

Later on when nitrate levels drop, the water in the reactor may become more anoxic and may have sufficient organics there to encourage H2S formation when sulfate reducing bacteria take hold in the absence of sufficient nitrate or free oxygen. This is when increased flow through the reactor and perhaps a reduction in the amount of sulfur help ensure adequate free oxygen and/or nitrate . If this occurs passing the effluent through some GFO can eliminate the H2S before it gets to the tank or your nose followed by flow increases to eliminate further sulfate recution.

During start up the effluent may contain ammonia, nitrite etc . So, it's helpful to let it drip into a bucket for disposal rather than the aquarium for a week or so. It won't be much water as the drip rate at start at up is typically very s low. Think of it as a very slow small water change.


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Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

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