H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide) to control cyanobacteria?

[HighlandReefer]

Your not hijacking. This is where I wanted this thread to head.

The difference in using the different carbon sources may in fact promote bacteria that can compete better with the cyano.

Not much on this aspect that I can find.

It is interesting that you have found brown sugar works for controlling cyano. I have not heard of anyone else using brown sugar.

[poolkeeper1]

Weather It Is controlling, Or has eliminated It Is yet to be seen. I only know for a fact that It's gone for now, If It does return then this solution Is no better than all the others I've tried. And I wish I could take credit for thinking to use It but somebody had told me to try It a long time ago, And I don't remember who!! It sounded so wacky at the time that I never did at the time, Go figure. One thing I know that too much will cause a white stringy bloom of some kind that looks bad but never had any Ill effects on anything in my system, and was skimmed out by the next day. I have had about a week since I did the treatment and all Is good so far, I'll keep you posted as to what long term results areIf you like.
Bill

[HighlandReefer]

Great to hear this about the brown sugar controlling cyano for you. Even if it controls it to where it is not visibly a problem, this is all that is necessary. Yes, I am interested in your long term results.

[RicksReefs]

I agree that nutrients are a constant chase and true zero doesn't exist, but it's still something we all strive for...

I'm a Lee Ching Eng kinda guy running 'modified berlin' and don't use anything but 3 part and a splash of iodine around every 6 months, so I can't help with suger/vodka/zeo type stuff.

[HighlandReefer]

Rick,

Do you run a skimmer? Just a few pumps?

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http://www.garf.org/news6p3.html

From this link:

"The Father of Modern Reef Keeping: Lee Chin Eng
reef aquarium reef aquarium reef aquarium reef aquarium reef aquarium reef aquarium reef aquarium reef aquarium reef aquarium reef aquarium reef aquarium reef aquarium
In keeping with the theme of Mother's Day that I used for last month's article, I figured that I should give equal time to father's day this month. I thought this would be a good time to pay tribute to the father of modern reef keeping.
People had kept natural reef aquariums of sorts before Lee Chin Eng's time. But, things didnt really start to happen on a widespread and duplicable scale until he published his work on the natural method of reef keeping in 1961- a very fine year.

Why should you know who Mr Eng is? This short article will answer that question. I'm sure you've heard his name before - and no doubt heard it pronounced in several different ways.

I had the privilege last year to interview Merrill Cohen
of Aquarium Products, a friend and business associate of
the late great Lee Chin Eng. Merrill traveled to Singapore
to meet Mr Eng. He introduced Mr. Eng's natural method
of salt water aquarium keeping to North America at an
APPMA show in the early 1960's.
He also imported live rock from Eng. The live rocks were
cured in tide pools.

I had the privilege last year to interview Merrill Cohen of Aquarium Products, a friend and business associate of the late great Lee Chin Eng. Merrill traveled to Singapore to meet Mr Eng. He introduced Mr Eng's natural method of salt water aquarium keeping to North America at an APPMA show in the early 1960's. He also imported live rock from Eng. The live rocks were cured in tide pools to let some items die off that were not as prone to survive shipping and reef aquarium living. Merrill says that Mr Eng pronounced his last name: "ang" as in tang.

Merrill Cohen described Lee Chin Eng as follows. He was a witty and jovial guy, fun to be around, always upbeat and "talking fish." He kept large tanks that he maintained for hotels in their open lobbies. The tanks were not heated or cooled, nor did they have artificial light. Natural light was all they needed to thrive. The tanks had only a few fish in them. Mr Eng liked to feed the fish to keep them plump, healthy and happy. He maintained that "A skinny fish is a dead fish." So much for our tendencies to starve the fish in our modern reef tanks to keep nutrients low.

THIS 29 GALLON REEF HAS ONLY
1 POWERHEAD AND 1 TRITON LIGHT
IT GROWS VERY GOOD CORALLINE ALGAE
Listen to this man's methods and you might go further for less money on your next reef set up. His method only used air pumps to provide water movement mostly from large flat bubbles coming out from under big rocks that air lines were positioned under. There was a thin layer of sand on the bottom of the tank. Live rock, live sand, water movement and light. It's that simple and it tends to work well - even without a protein skimmer!

Yes, it can be done with the right balance. Lee Chin Eng found that curing the rock before using them made the aquariums more successful. This made the water less likely to become fouled. Even though he lived by the ocean, water changes were not a priority. He was an energetic and enthusiastic business man with a maintenance business who also exported limited live stock which included live rock.

Before moving to Singapore, he worked on perfecting his natural system in the late 1950's and early 1960's in Bali. The popular trend of the 1950's in many areas was that salt water aquariums had to be STERILE in order to succeed! Bacteria was thought to be a culprit, the cause of tank failures. Many salt water aquarists took apart and sterilized their tanks every month or two in order to kill "harmful bacteria." Freshwater aquariums at the time could be kept very well using the "natural style." Natural style salt water aquariums were thought by most to be an impossibility.

No wonder the Eng system (once perfected) became such a novel idea and a real hit with many aquarists. It had bacteria, live algae, worms, other micro-fauna and plankton to make a natural and balanced eco-system in a container at home.

The keyword is BALANCE! The cured rock and sand really did the trick. We understand why his natural system works the way it does much better today than many people did in the 1960's. Today we can more easily avoid some of the pitfalls that "help" a natural system fail.

We know that the balanced reef aquarium needs a good variety of small life in the sand and live rock. GARF's Grunge live sand booster is a great source for this wide variety of micro-critters. Another important improvement is CaribSea aragonite sand which has proven to help the calcium level, pH and alkalinity stay higher in today's natural reefs.

We can now set up Lee Chin Eng style natural systems
with more success than Eng's followers could in the 60's and 70's.
Some of them failed miserably and went on to search for other
methods. Some people liked the basic Eng style reef but thought
that it could be improved upon.

We can now set up Lee Chin Eng style natural systems with more success than Eng's followers could in the 60's and 70's. Some of them failed miserably and went on to search for other methods. Some people liked the basic Eng style reef but thought that it could be improved upon.

It seems that the really good systems of today are spin-offs of the Lee Chin Eng natural style reef system. The best systems tend to have live sand and live rock which give them a natural balance you just can't get elsewhere. The live sand layer has thickened up considerably in many cases.

Some of the great systems that have evolved from the Eng method are:

Berlin method
ATS (Algal Turf Scrubber)
Jaubert/NNR system
Two notable but very simple systems have evolved (or de-evolved) from the just mentioned systems. They are the super simple

Bullet Proof Reef
HANDY Reef
which both have no plumbing!
What a nice refreshing switch backwards, closer to the original Eng system in a way.
Details on setting up a bullet proof reef can be found on this web site. Details on setting up a HANDY Reef can be found at http://www.handycoralreef.com. They are both money saving ways to "soup up" or improve on the Eng method just a bit. Of course they both use artificial lighting in most cases which most commonly consists of Triton and Blue Moon Reef flourescents marketed by none other than Merrill Cohen of Aquarium Products.

It is simple yet fantastic lighting to say the least. If you haven't tried these lights yet, you owe it to your self and the critters you keep to try them on your next simple reef system for propagating corals. The coloration difference alone is worth it! Make it a HANDY Reef or a Bullet Proof Reef.

I often shut down the protein skimmer and let the reef glide under the power of nature, very close to the original Lee Chin Eng method.

I've been running a one-gallon Lee Chin Eng reef for about 7 months now and am very happy with how nice it works with an air pump and natural light. It is set up in front of thin white curtains to provide light.

While celebrating father's day, remember why your reef aquarium runs so well.

Thanks to Lee Chin Eng, many methods of reef aquarium set-up have benefitted to a great extent."

[RicksReefs]

Yes to the skimmer. A trusty old euroreef on my main fishroom system and one I built, for the outdoor prop.
Some tanks get supplemental flow as needed, but most flow is split off from an 1 1/2" return pipe manifold that runs a Uee around the fishroom. Everything sways in the breeze.

Yup, Lee Ching and Robert Straughan were the gurus I followed when I started. but it was difficult if not impossible to get real live rock. you settled for the rock that your shrooms and such came on to seed the cannonball florida dry rock.
but then the newest, bestest rage, the undergravel filter, came out, starting the evolution of reefkeeping. until we've arrived to today, back to where we started. just tweaked with knowledge.


I love how garf had to stick their version of things on there, I used triton bulbs back i the 80's, but we've progressed a bit from standard flourescents since then....

[HighlandReefer]

I had heard of the father of reef keeping previously, but until today I had not actually read about Lee Chin Eng like found in the article above. Nice little tid-bit for a reefer to know about.

Now what kind of pests do you have to deal with besides those commonly found in tank system due to your outdoor set-up? For example herons coming in and eating your fish.

[RicksReefs]

nope, my biggest pests are the treefrogs that poop on the edges of my troughs while eating the bugs attracted to the lights.
I put up with them because, well.... they eat the bugs attracted to the lights...

wind blown flower petals too. but it makes my water smell purdy..

[Percula9]

Then ozone might be able to knock out the cyano. Randy maintains that iron dosing helps macroalgae grow faster, therefore out competing nuisance algae for nutrients. I use to run the light on the refugium 24/7. I think the combination of reverse light cycle and the iron has helped control nuisance algae like hair and cyano. Thew iron has caused a red macro algae to grow in the tank.

[2thdeekay]

Interesting thread. Last I checked, Boomer seemed to think Chemiclean is Polyacrylamide, and was having some checked out by XRD. Hadn't heard results though. Anyone know?

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...ght=chemiclean

[HighlandReefer]

2thdeekay,

Thanks for the link.

This leads to all kind of questions on my part. If indeed, ChemiClean is a Polyacrylamide, what is the mode of action and negative effects it might have on a reef system?

How would Hydrogen Peroxide and Polyacrylamide compare in their toxicity and effectiveness against Cyanobacteria?

[HighlandReefer]

The only thing I can find is that Polyacrylamide Gel is widely used for separation of protein complexes, individual proteins, or peptide chains based on their overall conformation, surface charge, or molecular weight (Santoni et al., 2003; Molloy, 2000).

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My search lead me to this article if anyone is interested. After reading this article, I am now brain-dead:

Nitrogen Control in Cyanobacteria
http://jb.asm.org/cgi/content/full/183/2/411

[HighlandReefer]

Percula9,

IMHO, there is a fine line when dosing iron. I found that when I dosed the iron, my chaeto increased in growth, thus helping to reduce the nitrate and phosphate level. I am not sure of the total effect except it increased chaeto growth. I had too many variables with carbon dosing going on at the time. Red cyanobacteria started growing about 2 weeks after I started dosing the iron. I had been dosing a carbon source well prior to that without problems. In my twisted mind (without any scientific data to support my statement) I could make the assumption that the iron may have possibly been the culprit & initiated the visible growth of this red cyanobacteria.

The effects of increased iron levels in natrual ecosystems have been documented in research.. The most interesting article I have read about the effects of increased iron in a natural reef environment is this article:

Phase Shift from a Coral to a Corallimorph-Dominated Reef Associated with a Shipwreck on Palmyra Atoll
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0002989

[2thdeekay]

Originally posted by HighlandReefer
[B]The only thing I can find is that Polyacrylamide Gel is widely used for separation of protein complexes, individual proteins, or peptide chains based on their overall conformation, surface charge, or molecular weight (Santoni et al., 2003; Molloy, 2000).

Besides gel electrophoresis, Polyacrylamide is also used in water treatment as a flocculating agent, and for making those amusing little toys that swell up to gargantuan size when soaked in water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gel_electrophoresis

However, if chemiclean is polyacrylamide, I don't know how it should work according to its label...

[dogstar74]

If you're asking about H2O2, then from what I remember, it's just supplying a free radical. The three common substances that I know of for this are Bleach, H2O2, and Ozone. Only the 3rd has been used to any great success in the aquarium world as far as I know. And it should only be used in conjunction with an ORP meter so as not to over stress the inhabitants. Maybe this isn't any new information than what you all knew before. But so far as I could see, only one post even mentioned Ozone, and so I thought I'd bring it up.

Cheers
Aaron

[Boomer]

2thdeekay

It is Erthyromycin cetyl suflate

A chem grad student had looked at it an thought it was Polyacrylamide with no testing. I thought may be so as it is well known in the water world as a flocculating agent. He was going to get it tested but never did. However, it was tested out side of the USA. We also had thoughts it was Alum but we got no sulfate levels. Since the sulafte is acttached to the cetyl you will not me able to measure free sulfate levels in Erthyromycin cetyl, like you could in Alum suflate. So, we did not know what it was.

[2thdeekay]

Good to know. Thanks Boomer.

[HighlandReefer]

Thanks Boomer for all the details you have provided.

[Jk5]

Hello Higland, Boomer and all...

We are reserching the next way...
I advise that the author wouldnt want to publish until he had more stadistical results...
But we hijack him...
It is a very interesting experiment against cyano...
After, this experiment becames in a way to study coral coloration and growth...

http://translate.google.es/translate...hl=es&ie=UTF-8

[Jk5]

"Regarding the action on the corals, I can say that in the 2 weeks that I have had under these circumstances, have not suffered anything - and always take these claims with the appropriate caution, but most have been developed, improved colors and healed wounds. Further, these startling results led me to establish another line of research about the benefits and detriments of the actinic light / trifósforo, also based on these studies, I do not know if you read. "

[url] http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/aafeature1 [/ url]
[url] http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/2/aafeature1 [/ url]
[url] http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/4/aafeature1 [/ url]

[HighlandReefer]

JK5,

Thanks for the links. Interesting reading.

[Jk5]

Hi Higland...
I had not seen your sheriff star the last time I was here...
Congratulions for your team RC...

the link above is promising...
The tittle "cyanobacteria project" is a scient deformation, because the author must talk exactly like a scientist with the goal of the proyect it was about cyano...
But I assume the title might be "cyanobacteria and all algae project"...
We have not any problem with corals with 12 days of actinics,
corals go better in coloration and growth...
I assume with this method we are going to destroy cyano and all the algae groups (dinoflagellates included).
All the "papers" say to kill dinoflagellate is needed 9 days of black out...
This is an impossible black out because we wolud kill corals...
This method are 12 days of actinics...
It is possible...

Highland you are my hero, I guess you to follow this method and to tell to all the people at RC your result with all the algeas groups...
If you take mi invitation I can talk with the author of the method and I can say him he cames here to follow your results and to explain his experience...

[therealfatman]

Originally posted by HighlandReefer


It is interesting that you have found brown sugar works for controlling cyano. I have not heard of anyone else using brown sugar.

Sugar and molasses (brown sugar). New to me.

[HighlandReefer]

JK5,

Thanks for the compliment. I carry a Model 29 Smith & Wesson, Dirty Harry Gun. "Go ahead, make my day."

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Yes, I am interested in what your friend would provide to any discussion in eradicating the problem pests in reef aquariums, particularly for controlling cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates.

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After discussing the possible use of H202, for controlling cyano with Boomer, I am barking up the wrong tree. It is to dangerous to mess around with in the reef aquarium without specialized equipment and expertise to monitor its use.

[rigleautomotive]

This is old school but i know it has worked for me in the past.I havent used this method in probably about 12 years so i dont know how feasable it is in todays school of thought,it was long before i became anal about keeping the big 3 at optimal levels so i dont know if you could control alk/cal with this method or if it would get out of balance.I believe it was sprung or delbeck that originally suggested this.Raising ph to 8.5 and not allowing it to get lower then 8.3 with the use of limewater for an extended period of time along with increased protein skimming and flow.