Do I "Phytoplankton" or not GHEEZ!!!!

[doctorgori]

Gheez, I just spent ALL DOGGONE NIGHT pouring over numerous youTube articles, Numerous WWM articles and the usual flamewar/article/debates on RDO (sorry bout that reference but...) and did my due dilligence on deciding whether to culture then feed phytoplankton

basically 1/2 the stuff I've read says live phytoplankton is usless
1/2 says it has benefits and the last "half" says its the cats meow...
(OK it all adds up to 1.5 so what?)

Anyway, I'm no pH and all I can do is digest the assorted discussions and make a informed desicion, but in this case I can't because I no longer know what to believe...so I turn to you my unbiased RO crew to direct me....

Do I even bother to culture phytoplankton? or just buy it? or not bother at all?
or do I use it to culture rotifers or use something else?

and btw, can anyone provide me with either a youtube or other link on culturing rotifers?

...I'll keep bumping this post till I get a good spread of replies...
TIA

[SDguy]

Well, I personally don't dose phyto, since there isn't anything specific in my tank that I think eats it. Would it benefit the overall "food web" I have going on in my tank. Eh, maybe...maybe not.

What are you hoping to feed with the phyto?

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by SDguy

Well, I personally don't dose phyto, since there isn't anything specific in my tank that I think eats it. Would it benefit the overall "food web" I have going on in my tank. Eh, maybe...maybe not.

What are you hoping to feed with the phyto?

I could never figure out what it would feed. I have a seafan that seems to grow well with periodic cyclopeeze so I never consider anything different.

[doctorgori]

Originally Posted by SDguy

What are you hoping to feed with the phyto?

and there's the rub...I'm not sure anymore....I got a clam that "allegedly" sucks in phyto, yet I read it both ways (does/does not)

also have some softies and a sea fan thingie (no not a "bonifed" sea fan its just that the genera name escapes me)

thing is you can't believe everything you read on the web or books but short of being a Craig Bigham or pHD (pard the sp) but what is your avg under educated HS/undergrad type to do? who do you believe?

I'd link the conflicting articles but that would be admidting I actually visited this particlular un-named site (hint RDO)

[allsps40]

I dont use phyto I use zoaplankton very lightly every few weeks.

[lcs]

My only, very limited, experience has been with my refugium over the last few months. I add phyto to the 'fuge every other day and within a week I noticed an increase in the copepod population. The 'fuge was about a year old when I started and my goal was to increase the pod population to help feed my mandarin.

This is purely suggestive and anecdotal, but it seemed to help.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by lcs

My only, very limited, experience has been with my refugium over the last few months. I add phyto to the 'fuge every other day and within a week I noticed an increase in the copepod population. The 'fuge was about a year old when I started and my goal was to increase the pod population to help feed my mandarin.

This is purely suggestive and anecdotal, but it seemed to help.

I think the copepod production is an agreed upon benefit.

[BrookR1]

Yeah...I dosed phyto a few times and it lead to an algae bloom which lead to an increased pod population. I haven't dosed for a while and the algae and pod population are decreasing. So I guess the big question is...

Do you really mind scraping algae off your rocks and glass? If not, dose away.

[Zappo]

The thing about phyto is that there's lots of different kinds, and the size of the phyto cells makes a difference. Some kinds are good for breeding copepods while others are too small and more suitable for breeding rotifers. And the situation is similar with corals and other filter feeders. They only eat food that's the right size. I've got a feeling that most of the phyto that goes in our tanks just ends up breaking down and releasing nutrients into the water.

[doctorgori]

...so phyto increases pods, AND algae..

what is sorta funny and sorta galls me at the same time is I clearly recall back in the 90's around when DT's came out it was touted as some "miracle food"...I swear I wish I could find all the articles ...back then there was only 3-4 mags FAMA, Aquarium USA, and TFH ...maybe 1 more...anyway, I'd almost bet $100 at least one mag had some "Expert" write this glaring review of this breakthough product...

I dont use phyto I use zoaplankton very lightly every few weeks.

Zooplankton is a estabished food (BTW, what brand are you feeding?) but now they are claiming they finding "phytoplankton" in corals guts, yet I haven't found any of the hobby "heavy weights" endorsing feeding this product

So the continued spot on the store shelves is from the live phytoplanton products riding the endorsment wave since the late 90's?

[bobbychullo]

i dosed phyto plankton everytime i fed my corals, 3 nights a week.

i was happy with the results. some corals grew much faster. had small featherdusters and sponges growing in my tank, the phyto definitely helped with this.

research on what specific corals eat, zooplankton, phytoplankton, copepods etc., is very limited. some corals you have in your tank may eat phyto. i saw positive results. i used live phyto tho, which obviously has limited shelf life. when it really starts to smell its usually a sign of large scale die-off. it was recommended to me to gently shake my bottle daily to avoid quick die-off.

you have to be careful when dosing phyto, if your nutrient export is not efficient enough you will probably get an algae bloom. if you're getting algae blooms in general you need to check you nutrient export and feeding schedule to find a balance. I found adding a carbon source to my tank (i used vinegar) allowed me to feed much heavier leading to great growth, PE and colors.

[bobbychullo]

Originally Posted by doctorgori

yet I haven't found any of the hobby "heavy weights" endorsing feeding this product

eric bourneman specifically recommends it in his book "Aquarium Corals"

[doctorgori]

Originally Posted by bobbychullo

eric bourneman specifically recommends it in his book "Aquarium Corals"

yeah he definetley qualifies....

If I do use phyto it will be the live stuff...I've been researching that Florida outfit for Guilliards FS, some petri dish cultures et ...basically I'll fire up some 2L bottles and roll my own...

...I got no hitchhikers in my tank, I used dead/half-dead rock = no dusters, snails or sponges ...so basically any unused phyto has to either be skimmed out or used by pods & corals

...my next question is I wonder how long live phyto remains viable in the display tank

[bobbychullo]

Originally Posted by doctorgori

...my next question is I wonder how long live phyto remains viable in the display tank

i would assume not long

my theory on feeding was heavy feeding with heavy skimming. i put a lot into my system but i took it out just as fast as i could.

[kevlow]

[QUOTE=doctorgori;19358816]and there's the rub...I'm not sure anymore....I got a clam that "allegedly" sucks in phyto, yet I read it both ways (does/does not)

(hint RDO) [/QUOTE

I reference to clams, I can only speak from personal experience. Years back I had several and one grew to enormous size. I noted that every time that I dosed DTs phytoplankton he added another fresh layer under his mantel. When I stopped, the new layers stopped. Wait a few weeks dose DT and immediately another new layer. I stopped dosing the tank because I did not want the clam any larger. I do not know if he was consuming the phyto directly or if the phyto was feeding something else in the tank that in turn fed him.

If I ever decide to go clam again then I will dose phyto.

kevin

[doctorgori]

Originally Posted by kevlow

I reference to clams, I can only speak from personal experience. Years back I had several and one grew to enormous size. I noted that every time that I dosed DTs phytoplankton he added another fresh layer under his mantel. When I stopped, the new layers stopped. Wait a few weeks dose DT and immediately another new layer. I stopped dosing the tank because I did not want the clam any larger. I do not know if he was consuming the phyto directly or if the phyto was feeding something else in the tank that in turn fed him.

If I ever decide to go clam again then I will dose phyto.

kevin

I wonder if it matters if its a light loving crocea or a less light demanding Derasa or Gigas

[bobbychullo]

think of it like this:

some animals eat plants, some animals eat other animals. some eat both.

until the research is done, they cannot tell for sure.

what i did was cover all my bases. I put a little of everything into my food mixes when i fed my corals/inverts.

[Triple One]

Originally Posted by doctorgori

If I do use phyto it will be the live stuff...I've been researching that Florida outfit for Guilliards FS, some petri dish cultures et ...basically I'll fire up some 2L bottles and roll my own...

This is the route I plan to take. I have two giant feather dusters and a Derasa clam. VERY shortly after installing my upgraded sump, the nutrient levels in my water plummeted to what I always thought were mythically-low levels (for instance, I tend to be skeptical when people say they have 0ppm nitrate concentrations... I infinitely prefer the term "undetectable"). My tank now has no detectable nitrates, which sounds really nice but the consequence is that both my featherdusters shed their crowns (yes, the water really CAN be "too clean," especially if your sump works far faster and better than you expect it to... though these are "good" problems to have, I think). I have been slowly building my Ca2+ levels back up to where they should be and making sure that my other parameters remain steady and safe, but I have also read that live phytoplankton is the best way to help a stressed FD regrow its crown. Many available products contain dead cells and preservative chemicals, and supposedly these are basically a waste of money, so I like the idea of homegrown phytoplankton not only for sustainability-of-budget but also the increased bioavailability to the livestock... The problem I am having is finding some viable cultures to start with! I found out that DT's is re-locating, which is why there is virtually no available stock anywhere right now, but I don't know how long it will be before more becomes available.

I'm very curious to know how well the Florida stuff works... I assume it is similar to the cultures used in the article on Melev's Reef:
http://www.melevsreef.com/phytoplankton.html
I know this is the article everyone always points to when asked about home-culture of phytoplankton, but I think it's worth re-posting because I feel like it's trustworthy. In my situation, with my sump actually working TOO well, I don't mind if some of the plankton dies in the tank because I could use some extra nutrients right now (obviously not a permanent scenario, but I'd like to salvage my feather dusters if possible). But I find it hard to believe that it would ALL die unless it's a strain native to cold water. I think that to really even approach true synergy in a marine system, things like live plankton and a reverse-lit sump (not only for nutrient export but also so that you can keep copepods and amphipods multiplying) are key to making sure all the gaps in the loop are filled, so I hope to start adding it to my system.

If anyone out there is growing their own , I would happily pay for the shipping and whatever reasonable fee we can work out for a 2L bottle of live plankton that I can use to start my own cultures... Feel free to PM me... Otherwise, I'm very curious to hear about your experience ordering the Florida cultures, DoctorGori. Keep us posted!

[m2434]

I do on and off. Not sure it makes a difference. Pods certainly will eat phyto, fish and corals certainly will eat pods. Some softcorals, clams etc.. may eat phyto. Others will not. So, I probably wouldn't try to spot feed an acro with phyto, but adding some may help bulk up the food chain. If it doesn't cause algae, or effect your parameters, then it likely isn't hurting anything. Can only guess if it's helping though.

Also, note though, home cultures using nano, probably aren't very nutritious, so, they may do less..

[kevlow]

Originally Posted by doctorgori

I wonder if it matters if its a light loving crocea or a less light demanding Derasa or Gigas

I had a crocea and a derasa. It was the derasa that got huge. When I got out for a couple of years [only kept a 10g] I tore down a 75g. I sold the derasa for a lot of cash though I can not remember exactly how much. It was over 14" across and extremely heavy. I got it pretty small. Without a doubt, it grew in big spurts with single doses of DTs.

I will follow this thread because i am interested to know if it was consuming the phyto or a byproduct of it.

kevin

[Triple One]

Originally Posted by kevlow

I had a crocea and a derasa. It was the derasa that got huge. When I got out for a couple of years [only kept a 10g] I tore down a 75g. I sold the derasa for a lot of cash though I can not remember exactly how much. It was over 14" across and extremely heavy. I got it pretty small. Without a doubt, it grew in big spurts with single doses of DTs.

I will follow this thread because i am interested to know if it was consuming the phyto or a byproduct of it.

I wonder about this too... Most literature I have seen suggests that clams are mainly into calcium and a little carbonate as far as their filter feeding goes, but I wouldn't be surprised if their zooxanthellae benefit from phytoplankton. I have also read accounts of clams consuming live phytoplankton without any issue, and openly rejecting (to the point of "spitting out") dead phytoplankton cells. Though I can't say for certain how reliable the info I've read is, to me that seems like a binary test for something: 1=Eats It, 0=Doesn't Eat It.

[Triple One]

Originally Posted by bobbychullo

think of it like this:

some animals eat plants, some animals eat other animals. some eat both.

until the research is done, they cannot tell for sure.

what i did was cover all my bases. I put a little of everything into my food mixes when i fed my corals/inverts.

+1 to covering all the bases!

I tend to err on the side of covering all my bases also. I feed my tank a blend of nori, spirulina, garlic powder, brine shrimp, mysids, squid, silversides, and pure water, all processed to tiny bits in a Cuisinart and frozen into thin chips. All my fish love it, and I have even noticed my mushroom anemones open their mouths up right after I dump it in. I suspect that the hammer coral is also consuming some of this. I do use an ionic mineral supplement for my corals though (contains mostly Ca, with some Mg and Sr also), and as far as I can tell, the clam and the other corals I have respond well to it, but obviously I'm quite curious how they'd respond to viable phytoplankton.

Guess it's just a matter of experimentation. But seriously, does anybody have any live plankton cultures going yet? Hard to test my hypothesis without materials...

[Leigerreign]

I started my culture using Dr. G's phyto, instead of ordering a culture from FloridaAquaFarms.

I haven't had a chance to look at the phyto under a microscope yet to determine what species of phyto I am growing. I am assuming it is "nano" which is fine with me. Nano contains enough HUFAs to make my brine shrimp and rotifiers nutritious. Nano lacks the lipids of the larger strains of phyto, but I don't consider this much of a problem.

In addition, I feed my phyto directly into the tank.

The phtyo will live indefinitely in the tank until it is eaten or exported. Most of mine is exported through my oversized skimmer. I know this because my skimmate is noticeably more green when I dose phyto.

Since phyto is so easily exported I don't think it harms water quality at all. In addition, Phyto consumes lots of nutrients in the water column.

I'm unsure if any of these nutrients are "unskimmable" but I wonder if the phyto can remove nutrients, through skimming, that would otherwise not be exported.

I don't think culturing phyto itself is really all that beneficial, but I use my cultures to raise a sustainable population of brine shrimp and rotifiers.

When I can find another cheap 10 gallon tank, I'm going to start culturing Copepods too.

All of these animals, which are absolutely great for my tank, all thrive off phyto...so I can't see why anyone would hesitate to put phyto in their tank.

[Triple One]

Originally Posted by Leigerreign

I started my culture using Dr. G's phyto, instead of ordering a culture from FloridaAquaFarms.

When I can find another cheap 10 gallon tank, I'm going to start culturing Copepods too.

All of these animals, which are absolutely great for my tank, all thrive off phyto...so I can't see why anyone would hesitate to put phyto in their tank.

Awesome Leiger, thanx for posting! I feel like my line of thinking is fairly parallel to yours. I wonder where you're located... I have a ten gallon tank I'd be willing to trade you for some of your plankton (I'm also interested in some good macroalgae... Chaeto or Ochtodes especially, if you've got any...). I don't mind that it's nanoplankton either; from what I've read, the smaller the better for feather dusters and clams. I don't need the 10G because I just let the 'pods run wild in my refugium and their pelagic spawn continually seeds my display . If you're interested just PM me. I can find out how much it would cost to ship the tank to you and we can work out a fair amount of plankton/macroalgae to swap...

Let me know! If we can do it cheaper than I could order Dr. G's phyto, then we'll both benefit...

[Leigerreign]

Originally Posted by Triple One

Awesome Leiger, thanx for posting! I feel like my line of thinking is fairly parallel to yours. I wonder where you're located... I have a ten gallon tank I'd be willing to trade you for some of your plankton (I'm also interested in some good macroalgae... Chaeto or Ochtodes especially, if you've got any...). I don't mind that it's nanoplankton either; from what I've read, the smaller the better for feather dusters and clams. I don't need the 10G because I just let the 'pods run wild in my refugium and their pelagic spawn continually seeds my display . If you're interested just PM me. I can find out how much it would cost to ship the tank to you and we can work out a fair amount of plankton/macroalgae to swap...

Let me know! If we can do it cheaper than I could order Dr. G's phyto, then we'll both benefit...

I'm located in Daytona Beach, FL...so I don't think shipping a 10gallon across the country (or microalgae) is going to be worth either it for either of us. I'd sell you some chaeto and phyto...but I highly doubt it would be worth the shipping cost. Call around the your local fish stores and see if they have any.

Phyto in a bottle is pretty much available in any good fish store. They should have either DTs or Dr. G's, I guess. My first bottle cost me about $8.

In addition to the bottle of phyto I also needed some miracle grow to start my cultures.

My technique is pretty simple. Fill a clear container with your RO/DI "waste" water and add 5ml of miracle grow per liter. I've read 5ml per 2liters is recommended on other sites, but I haven't had a problem using more. My cultures get really really thick so I prefer it this way.

The first culture I started I just threw in a splash of Dr. G's phyto and within 48 hours there was noticeable growth. Within 5 days the culture was pretty dark green. I split the culture when it gets very dark. Some I throw out, some I dose, some goes into the next batch, and some gets canned in a jar for later useage. (refrigeration required).

One thing I always do is agitate my cultures every day so none of the phyto can settle on the bottom and die. I think this is a crucial part of the puzzle. I'm going to try a culture using a 2liter soda bottle, inverted, with the bottom cut off. This way an airstone can be placed at the "bottom" of the bottle, where the cap is, which will hopefully mean the phyto can't settle anywhere.

As for lighting...I use 2 types of lights. One strip flourescent (T8?) that has a phillips brand "plant and aquarium" bulb in it. I get these at Lowes for next to nothing. The other light is a compact fluorescent...idk what light temperature. I only use the 2 light setup because I had it laying around. Otherwise, A CFL would probably work just fine on its own.