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06/30/2016, 07:27 AM | #3876 |
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I've had no changes to pH or ORP after dosing either 1st or 2nd dose so far. Nitrates on day 2 haven't changed (~2.5) and PO4 came up as undetectable via hanna ULR.
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06/30/2016, 07:16 PM | #3877 |
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Nitrates still 2.5
Phosphates 0.0122 Used the Aquazole tonight. I scooped up some tank water and placed in 10 250mg pills. Stirred with a spoon and it was fully dissolved in about a minute or two and poured that into the tank. Day 3 2.5 grams done... Well, then I got curious and plopped 10 more pills directly in the sump. They sank right to the bottom and started disolving instantly. Seems like a very easy way to dose it. Now day 3 5 grams done... I'm going to get a sample tonight to put under the microscope and see what's there and in what shape. Tomorrow I won't dose anything. I'll clean out the skimmer as the body is caked and bring it back up to normal operations and place a filter sock on the siphon line going into the sump. Then start blowing off the rocks. I'll still leave the automatic water change off and carbon dosing cut in half.
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rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank |
06/30/2016, 08:32 PM | #3878 | |
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Quote:
The reason is that it will either support or shoot down one of the proposed mechanisms for how the drug could affect some organisms. It goes like this. (I'll do the citation thing when I'm not on my phone.) There is a protein that is crucial in the photosynthetic process called ferredoxin. As you guess from the name, it's iron based, and one of the largest iron demands of photosynthesis. Metro is highly reactive with iron in general and specifically reactive with ferredoxin. This is the proposed action of metro in this theory. (I'm a little fuzzy on whether the reaction inhibits or destroys the photosynthetic machinery) Dinos stole their photosynthetic machines at different times from different things, so they don't all have the same equipment. Some dinos, when they need to - like if nutrients and iron are low - can make a substitute for ferredoxin called flavodoxin. Flavodoxin does the photosynthetic work without iron and without the interference from metro. The ferredoxin/flavodoxin switch in many cases accounts for which organisms are metro targets and which aren't affected. There's little info on which dinos can and which can't, but amphidinium carterae can make flavodoxin. Therefore, your amphidinium carterae should survive the metronidazole treatment.... Or else that is not the mechanism involved with this drug interaction. |
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06/30/2016, 09:11 PM | #3879 | |
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Quote:
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07/01/2016, 04:43 PM | #3880 |
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Looks like we finally have some before/after shots on a microscopic level of Ostreopsis before and after Metro treatment. These were posted by Twilliard of user Alanc425's dinos, from samples before and after treatment. Just beautiful.
Pre-Metro: After Metro:
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07/01/2016, 08:09 PM | #3881 |
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Awesome! How many days after first dose are those pics?
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07/01/2016, 09:15 PM | #3882 |
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Day 4, just over 76 hours since first metro dose.
Everything is the same about the two test beakers except the medicine. Here is my control beaker (no metro)- brown string developed yesterday and bubbles visible today. Here is the metro beaker (higher than recommended dose) - no strings or bubbles, but there are dinos in brown clumps on bottom So there is visible macroscopic difference. However, under the microscope, no obvious cell morphology differences between the two beakers. Looks to me like you'll see it with your eyes before you see it with the scope. Control Metro Finally, here's the dinos from my tank wrung out of filter floss into tiny beaker Under the scope, still evidence of reproduction/splitting |
07/02/2016, 10:48 AM | #3883 |
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Can't wait to see them start exploding!
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07/06/2016, 03:54 PM | #3884 |
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When I tried Peroxide a few years back it was obviously not doing any real damage to my Ostis.
Now you have verified it's ineffectiveness so we can safely forget about it. |
07/06/2016, 07:10 PM | #3885 |
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8 days in, I'm still seeing osteoporosis strings. Need to put under scope again to confirm.
Tick tock. Playing the waiting game. This tank is empty so I'll do an extended lights out if needed. My rescue tank so far is doing well and currently the coral look cleaned up so will be moving to display soon. |
07/06/2016, 08:17 PM | #3886 | |
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Quote:
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07/07/2016, 09:40 AM | #3887 |
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Run down Update
Prep Dumped in enough food to cause a massive outbreak of cyano and dinos that would normally last at least 1-2 months Before Dosing
Day 1 (Night of July 28th)
Day 2 (Night of July 29th)
Day 3 (July 30th)
Day 4 (July 1st)
Day 5 (July 2nd)
Day 6 (July 3rd)
Day 7 (July 4th)
Day 8 (July 5th)
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rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank Last edited by jason2459; 07/07/2016 at 09:54 AM. |
07/07/2016, 10:52 AM | #3888 |
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keep up the good work on this stuff guys. defeating this scourge will be a HUGE win for the hobby.
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07/07/2016, 11:40 PM | #3889 |
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Today was day 10 for me. I dosed according to the recommendation for 3 days.
I wring the ostis out from my filter floss hanging in front of my power head into a tiny beaker every day (or two). Some progress by that metric. (Day 4 and 8 had two days' growth when wrung out) |
07/08/2016, 01:09 AM | #3890 |
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Even though day 10 looks promising they have always bounced back from everything else.
I my experiments I'm not trying to get rid of them completely, but reducing them to invisible numbers and keeping them that way. If we are not figuring out why we are able to keep a bloom going for years I'm pretty sure they will be coming back again soon. |
07/08/2016, 06:57 AM | #3891 | |
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Quote:
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55 Gallon Reef ,Full Apex, Eshopps 75 Sump, Eshopps 75 Skimmer, 2 Jebao RW-8, JBJ Auto Top-Off, 2 Aquastar 165W LEDs Yes, my CHEAPO lights support:Carpet Anemone, Torch Coral, Frogspawn, Chalice, Zoa |
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07/08/2016, 11:23 AM | #3892 | |
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That said that's awesome you were successful with that treatment and if anyone tries it I hope it works for them as well.
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rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank |
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07/08/2016, 03:37 PM | #3893 |
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I'm almost tempted to say that we should stop using the word "Dino" and should instead use "Ostis" or "Amphidinium" or "Zooxanthelle" or even "Oodinium" for velvet disease in fish.
Saying Dinos is like saying "bacteria" By the way- you can buy dinos for $7.75 from a bio lab... Oops, I mean Amphidinium. http://www.carolina.com/catalog/deta...FYOBaQodrK4Ktw
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07/08/2016, 03:38 PM | #3894 |
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Hey. Check out section 21.3.3 in this book on fighting "dinos"
https://books.google.com/books?id=-7...ellate&f=false Theme - grow ulva seaweed and the bacteria on it kills dinos...
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Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape |
07/08/2016, 05:11 PM | #3895 | |
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Quote:
Ostreopsis is basically invulnerable to Peroxide, but amphidinium carterae are done in by around 0.2 ml/liter (according to lit. Haven't tried it) The most common amphidinium species in our tanks is invulnerable to UV, because it never leaves the sand, but ostreopsis is susceptible because it scatters into water column nightly. Amphidinium is smaller, unarmoured, less toxic, stays close to rock and sand and is vulnerable to lots of predators. ostreopsis is big, toxic, armored, grows in high-flow strings away from sand and rock so gets eaten by very few predators (mostly just pods). I found some ciliates that would eat ostis, but they didn't grow on it. Bummer :-( We could all go on, but in terms of most interventions people would try, they just are more different than similar. The ID down to genera tells you something. "Dinos" tells you very little. Prorocentrum haven't been played with as much, but they are larger, armored, grow in high flow up on rocks etc, so I'd treat it like ostis until better info shows up. Symbiodinium / zooxanthellae / similar are small unarmoured, less toxic, and so I'd probably treat them like amphidinium until we know better. BTW: Did we know that scientific lit has been looking for, but still can't find any evidence of ostreopsis mixotrophy. Wonder if we could get by just treating it like a photoautotroph. And that might be the thing they ("dinos") have in common. Light requirements. Which is one reason to be fascinated with the metro treatment. Twilliard says it attacks DNA. And it does in some target organisms. In others it attacks a working photosynthesis system, which is what I think/hope is actually happening. More on that if it pans out. |
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07/08/2016, 05:45 PM | #3896 |
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taricha - maybe you should put a matrix table together ... name the dinos on top (left to right), and then the control variables/properties on the left (up down)...
armor vulnerability to UV vulnerability to Peroxide vulnerability to Cilliate predation Toxicity benthic vs. night floating Mixotrophic ..... then we can add to the table as we learn more
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Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape |
07/08/2016, 06:20 PM | #3897 | |
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Like I believe I have Peridinium sp. but what kind I don't know as there's various var. types of Peridinium and its entirely possible its not even peridinium. lol
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rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank |
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07/08/2016, 08:03 PM | #3898 | |
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I've looked a little bit at your pics and vids, I don't have a better ID. I wonder if there is something cheap that could be used to stain the cellulose theca to help ID. |
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07/08/2016, 08:14 PM | #3899 |
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someone should set up a webservice where you send sample of your water and they ID the critters in them.
I think there's a gel that you can add to water that harders into a clear plastic and quickly traps everything like "on glass". Then the service can slice the plastic disc and take images and ID the bugs.
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07/08/2016, 08:19 PM | #3900 | |
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I'll go back and re-read the "stupid dinos" document that was started by ivy and see if there's a way the two can be set up to complement each other. |
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