Water Parameters NO3 Help

[JWGarber]

Looking for a bit of feedback and advice on my parameters.

125G Display

18G Main Sump (Holds Life Reef Skimmer, Waterfall ATS, main heater, return pump, probes etc.)

20 G Refugium (Only live rock and snails inside)

SG: 1.026
Temp: 80-81 F
ALK: 9.3
CA: 440
MG: 1320
Nitrate: 25~50 (Leaning more towards 50!)
Phosphate: 0

Age: About 1 year and 3 months old

Livestock
1 Maroon Clown
1 True Percula Clown (Bigger than the maroon)
1 RBTA (roughly 3.5-5 inches when open fully)
1 green mushroom leather
handful of hermits
3.4 billion cerith snails (They are breeding like mad in here)

Note 1: True Perc and RBTA added about 3 days back (11-7 or so)

Note 2: Yes I know a Maroon and True Percula are not exactly the best tank mates... The Perc and RBTA were sold to me for 39.99, couldn't pass it up, one hell of a buy and they were a bonded pair. They haven't re-bonded in the tank yet though pitty. The Perc does chase the Maroon around a bit and tonight I found some tail fin damage on the Maroon. So the Maroon may have to be a refugium resident in the near future.

Feeding Habits: A few pellets hand fed to the Maroon every other day or so, he seems happy and healthy but I think I may be underfeeding.

Question 1: Should I feed more? My understanding is feeding more will help increase the PO4 which will in turn help produce nitrate eating bacteria. So in theory feeding more can help get me to around 0.02-0.03 PO4 and lower Nitrates.

Questions 2: Anyone else have a Maroon and True Perc Clown? Did they eventually settle in and maybe even bond or is the a losing battle and I should move Maroon or trade to pet store?

Thanks for reading, any input is appreciated.

[mcgyvr]

Id suggest you start dosing vinegar and you can increase feeding some.
Google vinegar dosing chart for amounts...its quite easy and effective..

[JWGarber]

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Id suggest you start dosing vinegar and you can increase feeding some.
Google vinegar dosing chart for amounts...its quite easy and effective..

Thanks for the input...
I had previously researched Vinegar, Kalk, & vinegar/kalk dosing.

Let me ensure I understand these correctly.

1. Vinegar dosing is actually carbon dosing in order to increase the bacterial load that consumes NO4 and PO4. Typically the NO3 is consumed faster is my understanding. So these bacteria will eat the NO3 primarily but also utilize PO4 if I had it present as well.


2. Kalk is just lime dosing to increase ALK or maintain ALK if needed due to livestock uptake. In my case I don't really need to increase the ALK nor use kalk to maintain it as my livestock isn't really utilizing it to that point yet. Water changes seem to keep it in check. Kalk will also bump PH up too.

3. Kalk and Vinegar combined is to achieve alk maintenance or boosting as well as PO4 and NO4 reduction through bacterial populations. The combination also helps steady the PH which would spike with kalk or drop with vinegar alone.

Am I getting the gist of it correctly?


So in my case, with just high Nitrates, vinegar will boost the bacterial load that consumes it, then my skimmer pulls the bacteria out. Lowing the NO3.

How hard of a hit to the PH does vinegar give? My PH is typically 8.0-8.1 I forgot to list it on the initial post. I don't want to drop it.

Thanks for the details.

[mcgyvr]

You got the gist of it..
I wouldnt worry about your ph..its fine..

[dkevink]

I carbon dose with vodka. No ph issues. Try to increase macro growth in refugium to reduce nitrates naturally. Nutrient export. If macro not growing fast try adding a little iron.

[JWGarber]

Originally Posted by dkevink

I carbon dose with vodka. No ph issues. Try to increase macro growth in refugium to reduce nitrates naturally. Nutrient export. If macro not growing fast try adding a little iron.

The waterfall ATS does grow hair algae and I scrape it about every 3 weeks. I probably should let it produce more before scraping it. I recently re-arranged how I had it setup and it is now lit way better. So I expect better production from it.

As for vinegar dosing, I found several articles and a chart for vinegar but the chart doesn't actually tell you what the measurements are in.

Article: Vinegar Dosing Methodology

Chart: Vinegar Dosing Chart

My understanding here is that these are dosages in ml per day.

So with my setup and estimating gallons at around 140 gallons actual water. I am looking at starting around
4ml day 1-3
8ml day 4-7
so and so on.

Sound about right to you guys who do vinegar dosing?

[Jonesrd1]

As an aside has anyone else noticed that the math on the vinegar dosing chart resembles Sudoku more than Excel? Perhaps there is a biological explanation as there is not a straightforward mathematical one.

[Jonesrd1]

Sorry to beat a dead horse but the Sudoku reference is to the vertical progression of four while 100 gallons doesn’t seem to have a logical relationship to 1000 gallons.

[mcgyvr]

The chart is in ml and yes there is a mistake in the charts..
The numbers are not overly critical so no big deal..
People have had acceptable results going under and over those numbers..

There have been discussions to correct it but that takes an act of 2 congresses around here..

[Jonesrd1]

Thanks for the answer. I use just over double the recommended amount with excellent results. It certainly is confusing for those doing vinegar dosing for the first time. Ron

[bertoni]

I made a chart with the mistake corrected:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2676550

[JWGarber]

Just as an update -- I have already began vinegar dosing with a dosing pump hooked to an EB8 outlet with PH Monitoring. I haven't been dosing very much I started at 3 ml per day for about 4 days then bumped it to 5 ml per day about a day ago.

I will just keep slowly ramping it up when I am about 10 ml I will begin monitoring NO3 tests. What I can tell from research is that most the time people start around 15ml per 100 gallons. I am just going slow.

[Jonesrd1]

Don’t ramp up too slowly you may develop the wrong bacterial community. I suggest that you use the corrected table that Jonathan Bertoni prepared for the carbon dosers it is a very good starting place. Ron

I forgot to suggest that you add 16 grams of calcium oxide to every 500 mL of 5% acetic acid. This way it will not drive your pH out of the range you want to have.

[gprdypoo04]

What if your already adding vinegar to kalk?????

[JWGarber]

The chart below is calculated from the corrected Vodka chart and is already set for 150g water volume using Vinegar.

Now that part that confuses me is that from my understanding of Randy's tests that you should really use 0.5ml Vinegar per gallon. So 150g water volume at 0.5ml comes to 75ml daily dose. That means this chart tops that at Weeks 3/4

Why does it go beyond? Is this just remnants from the Vodka chart or should the Vinegar dosers really go up to 369 ml daily? that seems like it is a lot!
That is basically a soda can worth of vinegar daily.

Vinegar			150g	
				
First 3 Days		4.8	ml
Next 4 Days		9.6	ml
Week 2			33.6	ml
Week 3			57.6	ml
Week 4			81.6	ml
Week 5			105.6	ml
Week 6			129.6	ml
Week 7			153.6	ml
Week 8			177.6	ml
Week 9			201.6	ml
Week 10			225.6	ml
Week 11			249.6	ml
Week 12			273.6	ml
Week 13			297.6	ml
Week 14			321.6	ml
Week 15			345.6	ml
Week 16			369.6	ml

[Jonesrd1]

Yes it is very reasonable as it results in a final concentration of 0.03% acetic acid if dosed all at once much less if dosed over a 24 hour period as acetate is consumed very rapidly by bacteria. Personally I add 80 mL to my 60 gallon system. I have never had a problem but that is less (0.02%) than the chart suggests. Each tank will be different in the max and maintenance doses but this will be determined by observation not an empirical chart. Ron

[bertoni]

396 ml per day might be needed in some tanks. Others would require a lot less. You can keep increasing the dose beyond the chart as needed, although I'd watch carefully for signs of trouble.

I'd ignore the vinegar in the Kalk mix if it's been going into the system for a while. Think of it as a small pre-ramp-up.

[ReefSultan]

Dear All

I have PO4 Limitation reading zero and NO3 25ppm KH 7.3 CA 425 MG 1440 stable for long time

Continuous WC that results with %11 weekly
350 litre net volume

Tank 6 Month old SPS and Lps
I have problem in growth of sps bleaching and color

I read this thread and wanted to increase PO4 for not limiting growth and NO3 Reduction (this week )

Started to dose vinegar 15ml directly (3 days)
I see high feeding was difficult to raise a stable PO4 and yesterday bought Seacham Flourish Phosphorus

Yesterday evening I measure with Hanna ULR PO4 0,003 ppm (1 ppb) I wanted to raise it to 0,024 level (8 ppb) I used their calculator and dose 1,6ml after 15 minutes measured and see 0,049ppm (16ppb)

Without adding any food this morning 12 hours later checked Po4 and read 0,003 ppm (1 ppb again) so at night system consumed and stocked 0,046 ppm

After measurement I dosed approx 1,6ml again but didn’t measure result this time and feed and come work

I wonder what is waiting me in the evening measurement

Any suggestions about dosing and comments for the results?


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[bertoni]

I would just measure and test for a few days straight, to see whether I could get a reasonable trend line. There's a lot of noise in hobbyist measurements at that level, so I'd back off testing only slowly, and probably test every few weeks or so to see what happens. I might try 2 ml for a few days to see what happens.

[ReefSultan]

Originally Posted by bertoni

I would just measure and test for a few days straight, to see whether I could get a reasonable trend line. There's a lot of noise in hobbyist measurements at that level, so I'd back off testing only slowly, and probably test every few weeks or so to see what happens. I might try 2 ml for a few days to see what happens.

Thanks Bertoni

You are right , so much variation and need to create a pattern and give enough time for testing to eliminate sudden up and downs

Will go for 2ml as I see again this morning 0 reading

Do you suggest any time of the day to dose ? Is PO4 less consumed in day time? Should I dose in evenings ?




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[bertoni]

You're welcome.

I think the time of day is not particularly important, although I'd guess that uptake might be higher during the day, particularly for algae. I'd dose when it's convenient.