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Old 01/27/2009, 11:45 PM   #1
Reefer07
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Dinoflagellates: Causes & Cures

It seems as though every couple months I get dinoflage in my tank. It stays there for a while and then dissapears after a few weeks. I am wondering what would cause this and how I could avoid it.

Thanks in advance,
Zac


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Old 01/31/2009, 12:41 PM   #2
piercho
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Discontinue water changes for the duration of the bloom. Use limewater (kalkwasser) for topoff water. Use additional buffer to raise alkalinity above 2.5 meq/L to as high as 3.5 meq/L if limewater does not raise it that high. Sipon out what dino you can through a filter sock to catch the dino snot and return the water to the tank. Use a lot of GAC and change it often to help remove the toxic exudates of dino.

Some brown mat-forming cyano are mistaken for dino but the above actions actions are effective steps for cyano as well.

Tanks with efficient algae filters seem less prone to microalgae blooms. If you are not familiar with adding limewater to a tank I would do some research, it needs to be added carefully to prevent extreme pH swings. High alkalinity also causes pumps and powerheads to need to be de-limed frequently or they are prone to seize up from lime buildup on the impellers.


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Old 01/31/2009, 07:47 PM   #3
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how many no3 do you have?
Are you in no3 limitation?

dinoflagellates likes amonium before nitrate, if you are nitrate limitated, it could be dinoflagellates bloom cause...

I´m not sure in my afirmation but it would be an interesting experiment trought kno3 adition, until 10 ppm no3 adition in a few days.



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Old 01/31/2009, 08:35 PM   #4
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DISCUSSION


The factors and dynamics generating the harmful algae blooms (HABs) in marine ecosystem still remains as an open question (Smayda, 2002). Using a biochemical approach, we analysed the enzymatic activities of a dinoflagellate bloom in low inorganic nutrients waters
An important result of our study is that GS activity (absolute values) was associated with high autotrophic biomass (up to 1000 µg L–1) and with low external nitrate and ammonium concentrations. Fan et al. (Fan et al., 2003) indicated that the dinoflagellate bloom-forming species, Prorocentrum minimum, correlates with low NO3– and high NH4+ or urea concentrations. Our finding could have ecological implications for the dinoflagellate bloom in southern Chile. GS activity correlates with the use of ammonium as an external nitrogen source and is an important enzyme that converts glutamate and ammonium into amino acids in marine algae (Syrett, 1981). Thus, the observed pattern of increasing phytoplankton biomass and GS activity levels associated with a dinoflagellate bloom (r2 = 0.57, P < 0.05; Fig. 3a) may imply that GS is an indicator of dissolved ammonium utilization. There is strong experimental evidence indicating that G-S activity is higher where the ammonium concentration is low (Falkowski and Rivkin, 1976), as well as the fact that the GS activity in several marine phytoplankton species exhibited a high affinity for ammonium levels (Bressler and Ahmed, 1984). We suggest that phytoplankton single species are able to efficiently utilize low NH4+ levels mediated by GS reaction in coastal waters of limited nitrogen sources.




The differences in NR and GS activities observed during the G. cf. chlorophorum bloom agreed with the view that eukaryotic picoplankton and dinoflagellates have been associated with high and/or frequent addition of ammonium or dissolved organic nitrogen (i.e. urea) (Wilkerson and Grunseich, 1990; Glibert and Terlizzi, 1999; Kudela and Cochlan, 2000; Berg et al., 2002; Dyhrman and Anderson, 2003; Fan et al., 2003; Lomas, 2004). There is some experimental evidence that N-deficient algal cells (low ambient nitrogen concentrations) have higher GS activity than those grown on high levels of external nitrate (Chaetoceros affinis; Slawyk and Rodier, 1986, Phaeodactylum tricornutum; Slawyk and Rodier, 1988). However, little is known about the expression of different enzymatic activities and related ecophysiological responses of the bloom-forming algal species under different sources of nitrogen (NO3–, NH4+ and urea). In field conditions, Harrison (Harrison, 1973) found that NR activity was associated with algal biomass and low nitrate concentrations in typically nitrate-rich waters during a Peridinium triquetrum bloom. Dyhrman and Anderson (Dyhrman and Anderson, 2003), found a weak inverse relationship between urease activity and dissolved inorganic nitrogen concentration in field population of the toxic dinoflagellate Alexandrium fundyense in Gulf of Maine. In our study, an inverse relationship was found between NR and GS (log–log scale; r2 = –0.57, P > 0.05; Fig. 3b) during the dinoflagellate bloom. A possible explanation for this inverse relationship during the bloom is an apparently inhibitory effect of ammonium (internal/external) on NR activity in phytoplankton (Berges, 1997). Both, experimental and field studies, demonstrate that the relative contribution of the fluxes of dissolved organic nitrogen and dissolved inorganic nitrogen may significantly alter community properties as species composition and biomass, as well as biochemical pathways of phytoplankton


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Old 02/01/2009, 09:56 PM   #5
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Nitrates are less than 5. (Salifert)
I actually didn't have my comp. this weekend so before I could read this I had already done a big water change. The stuff is all gone now and things are looking good.
However, how can I prevent this in the future?


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Old 02/03/2009, 12:19 PM   #6
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Jk5, what article did you get that discussion from?


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Old 02/03/2009, 01:19 PM   #7
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"Relationship between biomass and enzymatic activity of a bloom-forming dinoflagellate (Dinophyceae) in southern Chile (41° S): a field approach"

http://plankt.oxfordjournals.org/cgi.../full/27/2/159


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Old 02/03/2009, 04:39 PM   #8
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Yes... It is... thank you very much HiglandReefer...

Hi TheH...

We only have tried nitrate adition against Falkenbergia (Asparogopsis), with an impresive succses...

A mate had a several Falkenberkga pest, his tank was several infested by Falkenbergia (Asparogopsis).
In 3 days he destroyed Falkenbergia, he was on nitrate limitation, and made an kno3 adition until no3 10 ppm in 3 days.

Another guy had Falkenbergia too, a less several situation, he was on nitrate limitation too, he only added kno3 until no3 2ppm...
Falkengergia went out...

I was thinking in other possibles pests by nitrate limitation...
I have heard to Mr Schuhmacher (Faune Marin owner) saying that in some situations nitrate adition is a solution for Bryopsis...
My feeling is ever you see an algal or cyano pest, if you are on nitrate limitation then no3 adition...
What do you think about Theh?



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Old 02/04/2009, 02:40 PM   #9
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It certainly sounds very interesting. I can't say from personal experience though, as I have not tried it myself and I'm not having any algae problem right now.

I will recommend KNO3 addition to people with chronic pest algae problems in the future, and see if they observe the same results.


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Old 02/05/2009, 12:43 PM   #10
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I am dosing KNO3 at the moment in the battle against cyano.
I had a small accident with vodka dosing, and was nitrate limited for a short period of time. This resulted in a heavy dinoflagellate and cyano outbreak.

I did a 2 days total blackout and dosed FM algen x. The dinoflagellates almost dissapeared, but it did not help on the cyanobacteria.
After siphoning, I started dosing KNO3 until i reached 3-4 ppm NO3 as I believe this helps against cyano.
This far it seems to help keeping both away.

Yesterday I measured NO3 as the cyano seemed to be coming back. NO3 level was undetectable or at least below 0,2 ppm (salifert).
I started dosing KNO3 right away, and will try do keep the NO3 level up for some time.


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Old 02/05/2009, 10:46 PM   #11
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IME established reef tanks can soak up a lot of dosed nitrate in just hours. If you are trying to maintain a constant level of nitrate thats measurable it may be necessary to use an automated doser or a slow drip.

It's true that increasing the N:P ratio is likely to change what algae are dominant, and may retard undesirable microalgae and cyano. But I'm not sure how predictable the results of N-dosing iare. We are frequently dealing with levels of N and P that are too low to be accurately measured so it's hard to gage what the N:P is to start with. And the pore water just beneath the surface of the sandbed may be very different than the general water column you are measuring, and it's nutrients in thet pore water that are feeding mat-forming cyanos IMO.

Outer reef waters are oligotrophic and we try to maintain those conditions in our tanks. Adding nutrients is counterproductive, or at least counterintuitive, to that goal. However I think cautious additions of nitrate and iron can be helpful to the health of the tank in certain circumstances. I would consider the basics - like using limewater for makeup water - before undertaking dosing nutrients to resolve dino/cyano issues.


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Old 02/06/2009, 08:36 AM   #12
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In my case, I had to dose NO3 anyway as my SPSs were suffering from N depletion.
As this seems to keep cyano and dinos away, I would like to dose a little too much, rather than too little until the problem algae is gone.

BTW, my SPS are looking much better now, and actually growing again.


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Old 02/06/2009, 06:03 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by piercho
Outer reef waters are oligotrophic and we try to maintain those conditions in our tanks. [/B]

I´m agree with you...
But many tanks are under nitrate limitation...
Nitrate limitation is not oligotrhopic... It´s nitrate limitation...
nitrate limitation is a known factor for pests.
How many tanks with zeovit system have suffered dinoflagellates? a lot...
How many tanks (no zeovit) under nitrate limitation have suffered dinoflagellates too? a lot...

dinoflagellates always came under nitrate limitation...

My asumption is 90% of tanks wich have suffered dinos were under nitrate limitation...

and the other 10% suffered any episody wich made other N compounds like Nh4 had a high ratio above nitrate.

If with kno3 adition we can fight nitrate limitation...
I´m waiting to see a strong dinoflagellates pest if we can fight dinoflagellates with kno3 adition.

My doubt is like yours...
In many examples news dsb and others tanks can soak nitrate very quickly...
I dont know if with the adition is enough or we need to see the results in the no3 test...
Perhaps in tanks wich soaks nitrate very quickly with the adition would be enough and you dont need to see it fixed in the no3 test...

torhav if you are not using algen or ultra algae (FM) and you are fighting against dinos with kno3 aditions, I would be very interested in your results...
dont forget tell us.


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Old 02/07/2009, 09:43 AM   #14
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Re: Dinoflagellates: Causes & Cures

Quote:
Originally posted by Reefer07
It seems as though every couple months I get dinoflage in my tank. It stays there for a while and then dissapears after a few weeks. I am wondering what would cause this and how I could avoid it.

Thanks in advance,
Zac
How do you know you have Dinoflagellates? Coming and going in relatively short cycles doesnt sound typical for Dino's. Usually once they appear they are a PITA to get rid of. My guess and this is only a guess is that you have Diatoms being brought on by some sort of nutrient spikes. To the best of my knowledge it takes microsopic examination to tell the difference.


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Old 06/28/2014, 02:40 PM   #15
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Bump. Interesting read. Did any of you conclude that the KNO3 did in fact kill the dinos?


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Old 06/28/2014, 02:45 PM   #16
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well i'm struggling with what i believe to be dinos.. no confirmed id yet...



But this popped up around a weel ago all over my tank on the back wall on the rock, and on my bare bottom tank...

At the same time my nitrates went from 1-2ppm to 25-50...

My phos is 0.008 on ELOS, and i'm running full ZEOVIT system... the tank is new ish and i followed the 14 day cycle, but yeah, this snotty stuff did appear around day 8 of the 14 day cycle and then just disappeared overnight but this stuff is staying! :/ i'm struggling to get my nitrates down as well something is contributing massively to it... i have no idea what... i've not had this problem before! but yeah i'm really frustrated :/


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Old 06/29/2014, 10:42 AM   #17
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Those look like dinos but I don't see bubbles.. Do you have stringy bubbles?


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Old 08/26/2014, 10:18 PM   #18
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re-bump


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Old 12/21/2014, 01:41 AM   #19
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How does nitrate limitation happen in the first place?
Does this align with red tide blooms in nature too?
What's the role of carbon here?


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Old 12/04/2017, 01:06 PM   #20
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I dose Nitrates into the system and I don't see Dino's i dose to 10 ppm


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Old 12/04/2017, 01:34 PM   #21
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how.. old thread.. yes, many people have found that dosing nitrates can curb and ultimately push dinos off the edge.


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Old 12/30/2017, 10:45 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayporksandwich View Post
I dose Nitrates into the system and I don't see Dino's i dose to 10 ppm

Can I ask what you are dosing with and are you automating or manually dosing to raise up to 10ppm?


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Old 08/19/2018, 07:07 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
how.. old thread.. yes, many people have found that dosing nitrates can curb and ultimately push dinos off the edge.
I'm trying to read about dino, and a lot of information seems contradictory. I've read that elevated NO3 levels can promote dino, but your saying that many have killed it by keeping NO3 can keep it under control. To what level do people dose, the mentioned 10 ppm, or some other value?

Also, wouldn't an easier way to raise NO3 be to remove some macro algae or skim less often?


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Old 09/29/2018, 12:42 AM   #24
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fundamentally, my experience is that the dinos take over when the natural competition (algae) is decimated - usually chemically.

So - algae is your friend.

Skimming less does help, but it's not enough.

What you want to do is return back to the natural state where nitrates and phospates are being consumed by algae. that natural competition pushes the dinos back into recession. They never go away - they're like viruses... always there.

But if your algae is healthy, they keep them under control.

That's my experience anyway.


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