Feeding Large Predators, Please Read

[EdKruzel]

Originally posted by Everyones Hero
So it is okay to feed krill? I heard it could cause lockjaw.

In most cases of what's identified as "lockjaw" is from a physical injury such as the fish striking prey on a bare bottom or the side of the tank. Krill is a common food in the sea but as with many prey items it is considered an "empty" source; one with little to no nutritional value. Soaking freeze dried krill in a vitamin supplement such as Selcon makes it a healthy snack. Variety is the key once your lion begins feeding.

Originally posted by Everyones Hero
I know it's healthy.

That's an educated guess at best. On the outward appearance you can tell if the skin has lesions or tattered and ripped fins or attached parasites (not common with lions) or if the eyes are hazed over and the all important sign of the abdomen region. (As I mentioned earlier, you don't want a pinched or sunken abdomen, but you wouldn't want it over extended either). What you can't tell is if the lion has a blockage (minor not severe) due to eating FW fish that it can't properly digest, or if it has an internal parasite or bacterial infection. Many of the outward symptoms don't appear until it's too late.

With lions there should be regular, almost constant movement in search for food; we should never feed our fish so much that they become bloated and need to perch. Check your nitrates and ensure they are below 10ppm. Attempt to feed your lion every other to every third day until it begins to feed. If it is a very small specimen (body mass of no more than 4''s) then it will need daily small portions of food. (Again, after it begins to feed of course). As a maturing "teenager" in the 6-8'' range it should still eat 3x's a week and once it reaches full maturity, I'd only feed it twice a week. When placed in another tank, or tankmates added, it will learn to grab a morsel or two in between its regular feedings.

[Everyones Hero]

Thanks again for the information.

Is Selcon really that good? They sell it at work for around $20, which I thought was nuts for a little vial of garlic juice.

There are a couple of spots in the tank that she seems to like more than others. She'll perch for a little while then move to another spot.

I've been keeping the lights off & I know my nitrates are high. I was battling an algae problem so I was raising the Mg level prior to doing a water change.

edit: Go figure. I get the Volitan Lion at work to eat prepared foods & I can't get mine to.

[Everyones Hero]

I knew my nitrates were on the high side so I did about 20g worth of water changes yesterday.

Tonight I came home & the lion was behind one of the rocks, but it looked like it was lunging towards something on the rock. I don't know what it was going after, but then it started moving around the tank.

I took a cube of blood worms & added them little by little. It looked like it was at least attempting to grab a few bits, but it wasn't very aggressive. Is it normal for them to stretch their mouths? A few times it would open it's mouth real wide & then chomp down, but without lunging forward.

[billsreef]

Originally posted by Everyones Hero
Is Selcon really that good? They sell it at work for around $20, which I thought was nuts for a little vial of garlic juice.

Selcon isn't garlic juice It is combination of essential fatty acids and vitamins. Excellent for boosting the nutritional content of foods.

[Everyones Hero]

I see. Come to find out we don't sell Selcon at work, but I found it online for $7+shipping. What we sell at work is the Kent Garlic Extreme, which is about $20 after shipping.

I just turned my lights back on for the 1st time in about a week. She was out & about, presumably looking for food. I'll try some more blood worms before I go to work tomorrow.

I really do appreciate the information & help. I've wanted a lion fish since before I even bought my first piece of equipment (other than the book I got) & now that I have one I want to make sure it does well.

I have a fairly large Chromis & a Lawnmower Blenny that I'd like to put back into the tank, but I don't know if it's a good idea. The Chromis is probably a good 3" tall & just as long. Doubt it would ever fit in it's mouth but I don't know. I thought I had read that the lion wouldn't mess with the Blenny. Is there any truth to that?

[Everyones Hero]

Today I went by work & we still didn't get any ghost shrimp in so I went to the LFS I used to go to on a weekly basis.

They had a ton of them in & they were only 4 for $1 so I picked up 4.

3 of them were empty & the 4th was full so I netted it & added it to the tank. It swam past the fish & the fish immediately turned around & gulped it down.

Now my question is this- how many can I/should I feed a juvenile Dwarf Lion per day? This is the 1st thing it's really eaten in nearly 2 weeks.

[Exiledonmainstr]

I buy frozen squid, octopus, clam, scallop, oyster, shrimp, crab and sardines from my local Chinese market. I thaw in water to remove/dilute thr phosphorus and nasties in the packing water and then drain and soak in vitachem. I have kept healthy and happy predatory salt water fish for a decade like this. My 2 morays eat the exact same as well. I have always been against freshwater feeders in any saltwater tank. Poor nutritional value and just a bad idea. My 2 cents. Best of luck to all.

[EdKruzel]

Originally posted by Everyones Hero

Now my question is this- how many can I/should I feed a juvenile Dwarf Lion per day? This is the 1st thing it's really eaten in nearly 2 weeks.

Feed just enough to notice a slight bulge in the abdominal region; in a juvenile animal this should digest within a 24hr period. As the fish identifies you bringing food to the tank (classical conditioning) it will begin to wait near a close top portion of the tank. This is the opportunity to introduce prepared food items. As an example, using a net to release the ghost shrimp the lion identifies the net with food items. After a period of time when the lion begins to rapidly approaches the net, place a cut piece of table shrimp or other prepared food item (slightly smaller than a ghost shrimp) in the net and release it as well. Remove any uneaten pieces so that it doesn't foul the water quality.

[Everyones Hero]

Thanks. It has already identified the green net as food. I put the net in front of the powerhead & let it blow the shrimp out.

It shows interest in other foods but has only taken a tiny piece of shrimp that had some legs attached.

I'm going to have to go to Wal-Mart to get the ghost shrimp because no where else is going to carry them. I don't necessarily want to get them from Wal-Mart, but I don't have any other choice. Hopefully there will come a place & time when the fish just happens to take something else.

I was hoping that by spearing krill & shaking it in front of the fish until the eel takes it would help, but nope. Now it's even seen another animal take prepared foods & still doesn't show any interest.

[AquariumGuy]

very informative article. I am a new aquarium hobbyist, but would like to advance to keeping predator fish some day.

[Diablo4]

Originally Posted by EdKruzel

That is fine; however damsels are quite crafty, before dumping one in a tank for a larger fish to eat, cut a fin off or a piece of the tail.
The wounded fish will have less chance of finding cover and the erratic swimming behavior will entice a feeding response.

Ed

Lmao. Great tip lol I am soo going to use that one Ed thanks. My yellow headded Morrray eel catches the green chromis but usually as I am sleeping. Maybe I will get to observe him hunting more. I feed him from a stick. Or from hand occasionally just to hear to shreiks of observers lolol.
A little history. I got into fish after part of my ongoing pack of rotties challenged me for alpha. I get bit 18 times 2 dogs. The eel is in a tank I'm good with that. I get bit my fault. I don't like snakes but the eel grabbed my intrest. Only had him a month on a 125 g. With a blueline trigger and harlequin tuskfish. The tuskfish I may remove in future if trigger messes with him. The trigger is small 4 inches. Plan on moving all into a larger tank and and somthing else then. Suggestions? I like reagal angels for angels.

[LPino]

Great information in this thread and the article. Will be using this.

[cherubfish pair]

Originally Posted by MeskeetDog

New to hobby. Can you explain the difference between Ghost shrimp, glass shrimp and Salt Water feeder shrimp? If you have the cash can you offer a cleaner,coral banded, clown etc or other type of shrimp as food for say a Tusk, Trigger,Puffer or even a Lion?

Thanks in advance.

I'm looking for an on-line source of live feeder shrimp, possibly marine in origin. We live 100 miles from the nearest LFS. I would like to feed live shrimp to a small moray, BTA and maybe a flame hawkfish (I heard they love live foods). Bluezoo aquatics sells live marine feeder shrimp (Penaeus vannamei) and liveaquaria sell live ghost/glass freshwater shrimp but both vendors rarely have them in stock.

[EdKruzel]

Those are common names that usually stand for the same animal, or often the same name can describe 2 or 3 different species. If you are lucky enough to find a regular supply to supplement your feeding, be sure to gut load them before adding to the main system.

[cherubfish pair]

Can some species of freshwater shrimp ever be acclimatized to saltwater?

[EdKruzel]

Yes some (most) are adaptable or will at least live long enough to feed your fish. Keep in mind that shrimp and krill are mostly empty calories, meaning little to no nutritional value. Think of them like a grocery bag; what you put in them is what they bring to the table. You should purchase some sort of small container like a rubbermaid bowl of < 1/2 gallon. Place some of your tank water in the bowl along with the shrimp you intend to feed and some good quality seafood pieces or frozen (now defrosted) prepared fish food containing HUFA, highly unsaturated fatty acids. Allow the shrimp to eat their fill; being clear you can see when they become stuffed. Remove any excess food that may pollute the water and dump the gut loaded shrimp and water back into the main tank. Little nutritious grocery bags swimming and crawling around your tank being eaten by your fish.

[sportyrox]

Ok, I'm a trigger feeder that is tired of spending so much money on food from a pet store. I live in north Georgia so getting food from the ocean is a no go. What can I buy from a local Ingles, Kroger, Publix, etc. that I can feed my Clown trigger and Tesselata Eel?

[EdKruzel]

Sporty,
This thread is getting long, but it answers your question and more; to be brief, hit your local seafood deli, think meaty and variety. Two or three jumbo shrimp with the shell and tail left on, rock clams on the half shell and whatever fish fillets are on sale (providing they are from the sea). Cut everything into serving sized chunks and freeze it. Thaw amounts you need for feeding.

[Finsky]

I have had a pair of Yellow Hawaiian Leaf fish, 3 1/2" & 3 1/4", which I have been feeding live ghost shrimp for the three week I have had them.

Tonight I put in a 3 1/2" Fu Manchu Lion fish and a 1 1/2" Redfin Waspfish.

The lion fish was eating live ghost shrimp and the Waspfish was eating everything.

I am using a small green net to feed the shrimp and will start adding pieces of frozen food.

I went to a local fish store and purchased three pounds of squid and a pound of razor clam. I cut these into 1/2" pieces for my six bubble tip anemones and then I also cut up some much smaller pieces for my fish including some frozen silversides and frozen krill.

Hopefully I will be able to get the Leaf fish and Fu Manchu eating frozen food at some point. I do not know whether I should buy a 10 or 20 gallon tank to keep live feeder shrimp and fish or just buy my live food at the LFS weekly?

[scubasteve06]

Originally Posted by EdKruzel

Sporty,
This thread is getting long, but it answers your question and more; to be brief, hit your local seafood deli, think meaty and variety. Two or three jumbo shrimp with the shell and tail left on, rock clams on the half shell and whatever fish fillets are on sale (providing they are from the sea). Cut everything into serving sized chunks and freeze it. Thaw amounts you need for feeding.

I just recently started buying my frozen and fresh foods for my fish from the grocery store. I still buy Rod's and NLS for my community S/W fish but my snowflake eel gets market shrimp cut into pieces and squid also cut into pieces. He would eat maybe one or two tiny pieces of krill and would leave it alone even while he was very actively searching out food. Krill was waving right in his face and he didn't want it. Now as soon as I got some shrimp and dumped the water I was thawing them into the tank (it was water already from my sw tank) he went into search mode immediately and once I put it in front of him on a feeding stick he snatched it up right then. I've read that they like shelled invertebrate meat best, and it was true. I do market shrimp one day and squid the next. Since he is only 7-8" I feed him once a day to every other day.

[Finsky]

I have weaned my 4" Fu Manchu onto frozen krill, silversides, razor clam off a wooden feeding stick. The Redfin Waspfish still eating well off the feeding stick.

I have since added a 4" Cebu Maroon and Cream Wartskin Angler who takes silversides off the feeding stick and an Orange 5" Angler(the terminator) who ate my female Clarkii and floated around the tank like a giant balloon for a few days resting in various locations and positions before digesting whatever made it look so big. This has calmed the tank down since Mrs. Cinnamon was splashing water out of the tank onto my face (my recliner is two feet from the end of my five foot 120). I tried without success to net the Clarkii pair. They immediately dove for the 150 lbs. of live rock. The terminator did me a giant favor as the tank is now very peaceful. The terminator has not eaten from the feeder stick yet although I am down to three yellow tail damsels from five and one male Clarkii from a pair. I would rather have the orange angler with maximum 6" size than the yellow tails or the two four stripe and one black mouth damsel although the four stripe and black mouth are pretty aggressive and street smart although I would not bet against the terminator if they offered themselves up as a meal.

The female Cinnamon and her mate lay eggs on the left side and the right side of the tank near one of the five bubble tip anemones: one red rose on each end and two green on the left end and one green on the right end. She is the reason I have rubber aquarium gloves by drawing blood from the back of my right hand protecting her two year old red rose bubble tip.

I am still trying to get the pair of leaf fish eating frozen food without success although I need to try the fishing line method. I recently purchased two acrylic feeder sticks from Ocean Nutrition. They have a chisel/screw drive end which is rather blunt. I am thinking of shaving one of them to a little sharper end for smaller pieces of food although I do not want to ruin one when I may just be able to use the 25 lbs test monafilament method from an angler post.

I was really at a loss with the pair of Yellow Hawaiian Leaf fish. I have moved to 1/2" to 3/4" zebra danios this past weekend and the female ate two and the male ate three and the Fu Manchu snuck in for one. I have tried white clouds and ghost shrimp as well from LFS's.

?????????????

I feed my carnivores once or twice a week.

I also have a Regal and a Majestic Angel and a Purple and Powder Blue Tang which get along well with their new carnivore neighbors.

I am still at a loss trying to get the leaf fish to take frozen food.

[Tryin2layadime]

Originally Posted by M.Dandaneau

Guppies ae OK occassionally, but like all FW foods are high in the wrong fats......if you switch to mollies, you can toss them directly into the tank, where they will thrive until eaten and eat some of your alae while waiting.

Mike

i found your post mike very commical even tho i know you didnt directly mean it to be. but whe you said they will eat some algae while waiting made me laugh pretty good lol.



and side not i plan to buy some lionfish if i do like mollies one day and the next i do like frozen fish and the next a flake substance or something along those lines wont the 2 lionfish get the proper nutrients?

[Finsky]

First success with Yellow Hawaiian Leaf fish after having them for four months and eating nothing accept live food.

Last weekend I had one of my leaf fish snap up a half of frozen krill off the end of a wooden feeding stick.

I then went to the second leaf fish with another piece of frozen krill, I melted it first, and it also snapped at it at the same time my 4" purple tang and 4 1/2" powder blue tang decided to snap and nobody got it as I pulled it out of the aquarium. I fed the tangs, a second time for that day only this time with meaty foods and not the earlier seaweed and freeze dried mysis and brine shrimp soaked in Selcon, Vitamin C from Brightwell, and Vita-chem.

After my two tangs had enough of the meaty food I went back to trying to feed the second leaf fish although she was put off and would not take anything even after my tickling her nose for five minutes with a piece of krill.

I now have a two inch fuzzy dwarf lion who ate a piece of krill the day after I put him in the tank over a week ago.

That leaves my fu manchu lion, orange angler, maroon and cream wartskin angler, redfin waspfish, and one leaf eating frozen food with only the one leaf fish to work on.

The tangs like meaty food. I was at the Point Defiance Zoo and Aquarium in Tacoma, Wa and watched a daily feeding of the tangs, angels, etc. The feeder was giving them pieces of what looked like chopped up clams, squid, and other meaty foods. I did not ask what they do for their tangs besides the meaty foods although you would think they put vitamins in their meaty foods?

I used to cut up my raw razor clam into 1/2" pieces and feed them to my five bubble tip anemones and then I would tear up small pieces of what was left and feed it to the tangs and the Regal and Blue Girdled angels along with a few damsels and a pair of Cinnamon clowns.

I started feeding fresh raw tiger prawn($.35 each) meat two weeks ago when they had a sea food cart at the entrance to Fred Meyers. I bought four and put them in the refrigerator for a day and then cut them in pieces and fed then fresh to the anemones freezing what is left over. The anemones really go for this meat as it is a bit softer than the razor clam although not greasy. They do not like sea bass or squid which put a film on the waters surface and drive the protein skimmer a bit wet.

[steven11]

EdKruzel, how would you factor in water flow to fish "exercise?" I've got quite a bit of flow in my 250. The lion stays away from the strong current but is very active in the tank.

[EdKruzel]

Steve,
I apologize for missing your question until now. Movement equates to burning calories, well more calories. The body of any creature burns calories by simply existing. The more current you have, the more the fish has to exert itself. Providing the specimen isn't rolling throughout the tank out of control you don't have too much current. Your concern is to ensure each fish is getting the proper nutrition and calories. If the fish is firm and growing, good, if the fish becomes thin or emaciated than you need to increase feeding. For humans I can easily calculate a BMI and a needed caloric intake. Fish are a guessing game through observation and knowledge on healthy specimens.