Drain Mod for Visio Overflow

[jharding08]

I had posted about my drain issues in another thread (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...1#post24728951) and received alot of good feedback.

I figured I would bring the suggested modifications to this forum for more targeted feedback.

I have a 180 gallon vision with a center back overflow that has two 3/4" holes and one 1.5" hole in the overflow. Right now I am using the two 3/4" holes for the the return of my Waveline DC6000 return pump and I have a 1.5" durso for drainage.

I can't increase the return pump GPH much without getting a ton of noise, splashing and general carnage in the drain section of my sump


I'm not sure if the durso can handle this much flow and brings a ton of air with it into the sump

Or the drain chamber is too narrow, causing the rush of water to come back up and over into the filter socks like a wave. The 1.5" flex pvc line barely fits in the drain section and I have it 2" below the water line.

Sump Design


Pics of sump with old 1" bean drains




Even with the bean animal system implemented in my old tank, I couldnt turn the waveline DC6000 up past about 3 bars without it splashing over violently

Suggestions from the other thread include
-Using all three holes in overflow for drainage, bean animal style
-3/4" for siphon line (more than likely wide open)
-3/4" for open channel
-1.5" for emergency
-Run return over back

*I really dont want to drill the tank

My Questions:
1. Can I upsize the durso pipes for the siphon and open channel to 1" with a reducer to the 3/4" bulkhead? Should I do 1" to the drain as well? Will that improve GPH capacity or flow/noise?
1a. Will all that fit in this overflow box? Does siphon need to be a durso?

2. Should I run one return line just into the tank from the back or still use the 3/4" return bulkheads in the overflow that have two locline nozzles on each one
3. Problem with the return nozzles is the siphoning on power off/feed, it takes quite a bit of water into the sump before siphon is broken, even with nozzles facing almost all the way up towards the water line.


Looking forward to more great feedback from a different audience

[uncleof6]

Be careful what you ask for, you will usually get it... There is a lot of fat to chew here.

A 1.5" durso will start giving you headaches at ~350gph. The further above that you go, the worse the headaches. There is no practical cure, other than reducing the flow till the noise stops. A 1.5" durso can handle a great deal of water, but as you have found out it is not user friendly.

If you had a 1" BA, using the current pump--on 1" bulkheads, the problem you describe is in the implementation (how it was built.) A full 1" BA system should be capable of handling more than this pump can put out, in real gph at the tank. (There are a lot of variables) It is cutting it close, and it can vary some. 1200 - ~1500gph, (24" drop; Upper number for 1.5" pipe on 1" bulkheads; longer drop the numbers go up.) On 3/4" bulkheads, the theoretical max ~1138gph @ 36" drop, not accounting for friction loss in pipe. (E.G. pipe size will not allow more than that to flow.)

You are asking about 3/4" bulkheads. Same applies. It really makes no difference what the pipe size is, you are not going to do better than, or reach, 1138gph drain capacity wise, (@36" drop) though with larger pipe you will get closer to the max. Lengthen the drop, and the max increases, along with everything else.

Long and short of it, is the bulkhead size, and the length of the drop, will tell you what you could do, the pipe size will tell you how close you can get to "could do." Of course, how well you design the return line, will determine how much the pump will actually get to the tank. (It will not be 1585gph.) These pumps have a pretty good max head limit, but they also have a pretty steep flow curve. You have lost half your flow @ ~6 foot or so, which is not at all uncommon as a total head loss figure.

Because of the way I approach and set up a system, I have pretty good idea of what the pump is going to do, to within ~100gph or so, (@ 3000gph + that is an irrelevant amount) from there figuring drains is easy; but figuering out what someone elses system is going to do is a little mathematics, and more guess work.

I would think with a 1" siphon, a 1" dry emergency, (on 3/4" bulkheads) and a 1.25" - 1.5" open channel, you will probably be able to open the pump up a bit, without creating noise, or a flood. (Hopefully the bulkhead for the open channel is larger than 3/4".) There is a reason this contradicts other advice you recieved.

Will it fit? Good question: it might it might not. If it doesn't, it might depending on how much you hack it up to get it in there. Then the question would be will it work the way it is supposed to? Depends.

A single return line up over the back is always the best way to get the most out of your pump. Too much friction loss with any other arrangement (with provisos)

A siphon cannot be a durso, and a durso can only be a siphon if the airhole is plugged. So I am not sure where you were going with that.

To tell the truth, 3/4" bulkheads on a 180 gallon tank is almost a crime. 3/4" pipe has too much friction loss for practical use in tanks much smaller. I would recommend pulling the box, plugging the holes, drilling the tank, and doing it "right."

There is a reason I do not use loc-line, and there are reasons I don't recommend others use them. You just hit on one of them.... they are not water tight, and usually are installed too deep in the tank, so they can be angled up to the surface... Not evil, but they are hobby toys...

[LXXero]

1. yes, you can and should upsize the pipes in your situation, it will indeed reduce noise especially for the durso. Ultimately, the flow limiter is the smallest fitting in use, which would be the bulkhead. However, as uncle said, if you use larger pipe all around, it will mean you have a higher chance to hit said maximum, where as plumbing everything in say 3/4 would definitely cause further flow reduction due to the decreased size of all the fittings and all the increased friction that causes.
1a. you can just use a strainer for the siphon, it does not have to be a durso (or really, two 90s, or a 90 and a tee, not actually a durso since there's no air hole in the siphon). In fact, in this type of internal overflow setup, a strainer is MUCH easier, and i would recommend it every time, although do realize you will want the strainer to be at least 6" below the surface, and that the water in the overflow will drain to that level when the pump is off, which is usually not a problem as it's not that much water in those tiny overflow boxes.
2. it's up to you. I have 1" output on my pump, i ran it all 1" and then reduced to 3/4 locline at the ends. I like the flexibility (literally) that locline provides. I'll occasionally re-arrange the jets and stuff to direct flow a certain way.
3. both my tanks with sumps have over-the-top returns. it does indeed let you drill vacuum breaker holes at nearly whatever height you want, and position the jets at a better height as well. On my big 120g, i just drilled holes in the 3/4" locline to thread adapters, there's like a slot on the hexagonal part that you're supposed to fit a wrench on, and it's so easy to drill right into it, the hole ends up right after the pvc that way which is pretty much perfect height wise for me. Also, if you use locline, I suggest buying some locline 90s. So basically use 2x pvc 90s (one should be a conversion 90 to 3/4 female thread for locline adapters to fit) to get over the top of the tank, and then convert to locline with the adapter facing down, then you can throw throw the locline 90 there so now the locline is horizontal, a nd you'll be able to get the nozzles above water much easier with that setup. That was enough to eliminate the siphon problem entirely on my 60 cube, so i didn't even need to drill breaker holes on that one. I may do the same on my big 120G and ditch the drilled fittings for fresh ones....We'll see. Here's what i'm talking about, BTW, you can see how it threads into the 90 facing down:
http://www.xero.cc/fish/return.jpg
http://www.xero.cc/fish/return2.jpg
http://www.xero.cc/fish/120_returns.jpg
here's my cube, can't really see the locline but it's about the same idea
http://www.xero.cc/fish/60/manifold_return.jpg

I'm really surprised you couldn't turn up the dc6000 past 3 on your bean setup. I have a waveline dc6000 on my 60 cube with a herbie setup (just 2x 1" drains) and i can turn it up full blast, no problem, and that tank is literally 1/3 the size of your 180! I have it hard-plumbed to a manifold and it's 1" manifold to 3/4" locline at the end, so it might be restricted somewhat, but I still imagine it's much more flow than you were getting on 3!

Honestly, i would do some tests before finalizing on this drain setup. You really have 3 options, and I wouldn't choose one for sure until i was confident i knew it would work correctly. What you really need to test is if takes 1x or 2x 3/4 pipes to handle the full flow of your pump. I would literally try to plumb up the 3/4 pipes, and either plug the 1.5" drain or just put a really tall standpipe in it temporarily so that it doesn't take any water flow. Then, fill the tank, attach the pump and run it full blast and see if the 2x3/4" will handle it. I would try to see if just two straight pipes could handle it, no dursos. Then maybe try one as a durso, one as a straight pipe, see how that works as well.

As for connecting it to the sump for this test, I'd say dry fit it all for the test. It might leak slightly, but as long as it's not gushing it shouldn't effect the test anyway. Either way, most of the pipes you make up should still be useful when you go to glue it all up in the final form. My main concern is you really don't want to start buying gate valves or anything until you know what you want to do, as they can be quite expensive, and 1.5" ones cost twice as much as 3/4" ones, haha.

Depending how all that goes and assuming that 2x3/4" can handle the fuil flow of your pump (which I believe it may with the 1" standpipes), you got 3 options.

Option A. The first and probably safest option is the one you said originally. Use the 3/4" for siphon+open channel and then 1.5" for emergency. This only works if the 3/4 pipe will handle the majority of the flow, and i mean like, nearly all of it, because the 3/4 pipe won't be much for an open channel.

Option B. The next safest and quietest option is probably what uncle suggested, use the 1.5" for the open channel. However, for this option to be safe, then the previous option also should inherently be safe, you will basically need to ensure you can handle the full flow of your tank through 2x 3/4 pipes at a minimum or the 1.5" open channel may give a false sense of security. The main reason you'd do this over the 3/4 isn't for the increased flow, but rather because because a 1.5" bulkhead and 1.5" open channel should run much much quieter than a 3/4" ever could as an open channel. It would handle more flow too, but you don't want to rely on this too much as it gets into unsafe territory. If it gets clogged, ultimately, you're limited back to 2x3/4" which is why regardless of anything you need to ensure the 2x3/4 will work right for this.

Option C. And if it can handle that, then it also opens up this last, final option, which is probably the "least" safe inherently, because it has the largest potential to be abused by overdriving a 1.5" siphon with more than the 2x3/4 emergencies could ever handle. Basically, you'd do a pseudo-herbie type setup. Use the 1.5" as a full siphon and treat the 3/4" pipes BOTH as dry emergencies, their heights could be staggered slightly but they should be pretty close overall. No dursos. Just straight pipes. They will be noisy, you will be aiming to have almost NO water running down them. Tune the siphon so that it barely trickles or if possible hovers just below the point of trickle on the 3/4 pipes. Do not treat it like an open channel and let a bunch of water down either of the 3/4 pipes. If it does trickle, we're talking tiny drips. This option has the potential to be the quietest of the three, but would also be the most difficult to tune.

I think personally the suggestion uncle made is probably your best bet since i prefer the ease of tuning of the bean setup over the herbie setup and would probably be willing to take the slight additional noise of the open channel over a completely silent siphon just for the ease of tuning reasons alone. Plus, the 1.5" open channel would further reduce that noise to almost nothing versus your original plan/option A. However, I would insist for any of these options that you test it all thoroughly. If the 3/4" pipes cant handle it, then it might not be very safe regardless of which way you go.

[jharding08]

Thank you for both your thorough feedback! I am still digesting all the info and options, but wanted to comment on some things.

For my 120 with the 1" BA, I only had the DC6000 turned up to 3 because of the wave that would flow over the drain chamber in the sump to the filter socks. The coast to coast overflow was handled fine, it was in the sump where things got violent the more I turned it up. I'm not sure if its because the drain chamber is only 1.5" wide so the water has no where to go or I had the pipes at the wrong depth, etc...

Also, I see in the pictures that it looks like a combo of flex pvc, hard pvc and some spa flex is used, I'd love to use something more flexible than flex pvc to get to my drain from the overflow bulkheads, can I use flexible vinyl tubing as long as it doesnt kink? The drop distance from the overflow bulkheads to waterline of the sump drain chamber is only about 12", its a short stand.

I took Uncles advice when I was planning my 120 setup and upped my return line to 1.5" on the DC6000 with just a 45 going into the water. I'm pretty sure it gets the most out of the pump without much friction loss.

One last question about return lines. If I use hard PVC, how do I get it so that the entire weight of the return line isnt sitting on the pump? I know some new sumps have a bulkhead incorporated into the rim of the sump, so the weight of the pvc sits on the sump and then can do flex line to the actual pump. Can I mount something on the stand to take the weight off the pump?

Thanks again for the help

[mcgyvr]

yes you could use vinyl.. One problem with clear vinyl though is that it lets light through which lets algae,etc.. grow inside the tube...
kinking is usually a problem too..
I go all hard pvc except for the last foot or 2 to the pump.. That helps to reduce vibrations transferred up the hard pipe,etc...

And use pipe straps/clamps or similar to support the weight of the plumbing..
Regular plastic pipe strap (comes in a roll with holes all the way down it) is all I needed on my last tank.. I just supported it in a few places to make sure it doesn't get bumped/break anything,etc...

[fishgate]

I'd use 1 3/4" for a full siphon drain, 1 3/4" for an open channel, and the 1.5" for the return. You could even plumb it so your output looks the same as it looks now with the loc-line. Then there is no drilling and no over the back.

[LXXero]

i just use pipe clamps, BRS sells plastic ones. i try to use as many as possible to support it. On my 60 cube they actually support the weight of the entire manifold. You can sorta see them here:
http://www.xero.cc/fish/60/manifold_front.jpg
I used 4 of them there, then the 3/4 return that goes up the back also has one at the bottom. They're tight enough that it even prevents the manifold from rotating down with just the clips.

although in my 120g the pump does sort of support the manifold weight, it's fine, it's not that heavy. i don't even have any major vibration issues. it's a AC pump though. the waveline on the 60 cube is definitely "whinier" than my AC pump, not sure how else to describe it. it's higher pitched.

yeah you can use vinyl tubing, but the barb fittings are pretty lossy. you may want to upsize the vinyl to the next size up to reduce losses. I actually had the cube like that originally but i changed to hard PVC later. Main reason is that I wanted the tank really close to the wall and using 1" fittings would have made everything too big. So since i was using 3/4 locline anyway, i decided to hard plumb in all 3/4 for the return portion that extends off the manifold, but the manifold itself is 1". Here's a video of that same 60cube tank with the over-the-top return i made that uses tubing instead of pvc, fast forward to about 2 minutes in (the link should do it for you)

https://youtu.be/jc-W8TqrkkU?t=2m7s

Another option you could consider is maybe pool vacuum hose? It's usually wider than vinyl anyway and often fits around PVC pipe as opposed to needing a barb to fit inside. It's been used for drain lines many times before. Honestly, i'd hard plumb everything if you could, but flex PVC is nice for some long runs that would have odd curves because you can get the pvc to eat up the curve, but it's not gonna do sharp turns or anything.

yeah that algae thing can be a problem with vinyl, my LFS always uses black vinyl. Not sure if it just hides the problem or what, i feel all tubing gets dirty over time, just a matter of whether you see it. I don't really care. Neither is an excuse for never cleaning it, lol.

[jharding08]

I think I am going to try the BA drain system.

3/4" bulkhead upsized to 1" main siphon drain (no 90s, just straight pipe with strainer on top
1.5" bulkhead with 1.5" pipe for open channel (already exists)
3/4" bulkhead upsized to 1" emergency (straight pipe with strainer)

The angle to get to my drain from my overflow bulkheads is sharper than 45 degree, so I might try flex vinyl (is that the same as spa flex?)

When setting up my sump, I didnt want too sharp an angle for the return or the drains, so I lined the middle of the sump up with the middle of the overflow drains. If I dont use the overflow bulkheads for returns, then I can move the sump over more under the drain bulkheads to lessen the angle and run the return where ever I want. Might make the drain system work better

Do the pipe clamps work with vertical pipe as well as horizontal? I dont want much horizontal pipe in my return line

[jharding08]

I still have the question about my drain chamber in my sump too.

Did I design it wrong? If I want the drain water to exit the drain pipe and then flow over into the filter socks, is it more about having a bigger area for the water to drain into or about spacing the water out as it enters the drain chamber so it overflows into the filter socks more uniformly?

I cant really change my sump design, but am thinking of mods to the drain to even out the flow

[mcgyvr]

Your sump layout is fine..

[LXXero]

yes pipe clamps dont matter which way you mount them...

spaflex is not the same as vinyl. spaflex is harder, and a bit more rigid, but can be glued directly to PVC fittings. vinyl tubing is just typical clear tubing that needs some kind of barb and clamps to secure.


regarding the sock chamber. When doing a BA, I can tell you for sure it helps to make the area bigger that the water drains into, the amount of flow can often be pretty significant and if you build this chamber too small, it has a tendency to create a giant jet of water flying out of it. When the chamber is bigger, it can overflow more gradually and reduces the water-flying-out-of-the-drain-chamber effect. it doesn't really matter in regards to spacing out the socks. as the socks clog up, it will raise the water level and just fall into the next sock. that matters much less.

[Lsufan]

The noise from your sump may have been the water overflowing into your socks. It makes a waterfall going in the sock falling to the water level in the sump. I had this problem at first so I made some sock silencers out of acrylic. It quieted it down a bunch.

U may want to think about using the 1.5" bulkhead for the emergency. If u have your syphon close to max & another 250 to 350 gph draining from a 1.5" open channel u will take away one of the failsafes from the system. If your syphon & open channel both get clogged the 3/4" emergency won't be able to handle all the flow, it's not likely but it can happen. If u have your syphon valve closed off a bunch then it may be ok, but it will be a risk.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by jharding08

I think I am going to try the BA drain system.

3/4" bulkhead upsized to 1" main siphon drain (no 90s, just straight pipe with strainer on top
1.5" bulkhead with 1.5" pipe for open channel (already exists)
3/4" bulkhead upsized to 1" emergency (straight pipe with strainer)

The angle to get to my drain from my overflow bulkheads is sharper than 45 degree, so I might try flex vinyl (is that the same as spa flex?)

When setting up my sump, I didnt want too sharp an angle for the return or the drains, so I lined the middle of the sump up with the middle of the overflow drains. If I dont use the overflow bulkheads for returns, then I can move the sump over more under the drain bulkheads to lessen the angle and run the return where ever I want. Might make the drain system work better

Do the pipe clamps work with vertical pipe as well as horizontal? I dont want much horizontal pipe in my return line

Originally Posted by jharding08

I still have the question about my drain chamber in my sump too.

Did I design it wrong? If I want the drain water to exit the drain pipe and then flow over into the filter socks, is it more about having a bigger area for the water to drain into or about spacing the water out as it enters the drain chamber so it overflows into the filter socks more uniformly?

I cant really change my sump design, but am thinking of mods to the drain to even out the flow

One of the answers to your second question is answered in the first question: There is a problem getting the drain lines into the sump. Because your bulkheads are so small, you need to be doing things to decrease the friction losses in your drainlines, not doing things that will increase it. Friction loss in Flexible PVC Pipe (Spa-flex) is higher than it is in hard pipe; and friction loss in vinly tubing is greater than it is in Spa-Flex. So the drain "chamber" is not in the right place in relation to your overflow. This is forcing you to considering mods to the drain(s) to even out the flow. The drains are the last place you want to be making mods as a solution to probems caused by something else. What you do under the tank, is just as important as what you do in the overflow box. Also you are essentially using three sections of the sump, for what only requires one section.

Wrong is a very ambiguous term, and there are levels of wrong: wrong, but water flows, wrong and no water flows, wrong and is a PITA, wrong as in a waste of materials, wrong as in the emphasis is misplaced, wrong as in following the wrong set of instructions. Things that a DIY builder quite possibly never heard of. So I cannot say you built it wrong.

You have been having some things going on with this system. You are going to be putting band aids on band aids, and you don't want to drill, and don't want make the sump work better with the system. At some point you will be needing to do major modifications to get this system to work the way you want it to.

[LXXero]

Originally Posted by Lsufan

The noise from your sump may have been the water overflowing into your socks. It makes a waterfall going in the sock falling to the water level in the sump. I had this problem at first so I made some sock silencers out of acrylic. It quieted it down a bunch.

U may want to think about using the 1.5" bulkhead for the emergency. If u have your syphon close to max & another 250 to 350 gph draining from a 1.5" open channel u will take away one of the failsafes from the system. If your syphon & open channel both get clogged the 3/4" emergency won't be able to handle all the flow, it's not likely but it can happen. If u have your syphon valve closed off a bunch then it may be ok, but it will be a risk.

I am not sure i'd even run this 2x3/4 bulkhead system at all without testing it. with a 1.5" emergency it's only slightly safer, but if 2x 3/4" pipes can't handle the flow of his pump, then really this system isn't ever going to be truly safe. if he can test and prove that 2x3/4" bulkheads will handle that flow, then you can almost choose to use the 1.5" bulkhead however you want since you know the system can handle it with the 3/4 alone. I think in that case the open channel makes a good place for it since it'll likely keep the system quietest while still being a "bean", and won't give you as much false sense of security (but it still gives you some....not as much as using it for the siphon would, hah). Truth be told even using it as a siphon with 2x3/4" pipes as an emergency might still be safer than just a single 1.5" durso. These kind of things are often so hard to put into perspective, because we're talking adding some redundancy for a system that previously had none anyway, so almost anything is better than nothing in that regard. It's a compromise.

I had problems with the pre-made return chambers of my sump (aqueon proflex 4) being simply inadequate to handle the flow without generating a huge amount of noise. It wasn't even waterfalling into the socks that was noisy, it was just literally jetting out of that chamber so violently that created the noise. I ended up splitting the siphon to drain into 2 socks directly, bypassing that chamber entirely. I know splitting it isn't a recommended thing to do, but my bulkheads are all 1.5" and the siphon/open channel reduces to 1" right at the sump, due to that just being the sumps factory design. I was worried splitting it might cause a problem, but I think given it's reduced to 1" and then split right afterwards, all that back pressure has made splitting it off to 2 socks not seem to matter, and now the sump is dead quiet. I have to pull the piece off to change the socks now, but it's not really a huge deal at all, and well worth it for the silence. Now my overflow box is the noisiest part, and that used to be the quietest part. I even opened up my returns more and increased my tank flow after this mod, just because i can run full-blast fairly quietly now. If I was splitting it earlier in the plumbing, I do suspect it would have been more awkward to adjust, but I really didn't even have to change my gate valve at all after I did the mod, though I did later actually open it more since I can do so now without creating any more noise. I was purposely running a higher than usual flow on the open channel just to keep the violent water noise down. Now that's not needed. Needless to say, sometimes, it's all about the compromises you're willing to take...

[jharding08]

If I do 3/4" upsized to 1" for main siphon, 1.5" open channel and 3/4" upsized to 1" for emergency, assuming the siphon and emergency can handle all the flow (is this with both siphoning or for each one?), what height should all the pipes be in the overflow. the overflow is 24" tall with the water line about 1.5" below the top of the overflow

[LXXero]

me personally, i'd do the siphon as just a strainer cap and stick it 6" below the water, minimum

open channel should be higher up, maybe an inch below the teeth. Emergency slightly higher.

[jharding08]

This is the current sump setup. The unions on the bottom of the bulkheads are pretty close to the sump already





Return


Drain


Right now its about equidistant between the drain chamber and return chamber for the overflow bulkheads. If I was to run three drains, they all would be run with a sharp angle like the current 1.5" drain is

[LXXero]

you could use street 45's or street 90's glued directly in the bottom part of the unions if you need to buy yourself some more space....you won't find street 45's very easily though, i have to buy those online. Of course you'll need to buy a few more unions so you can steal the bottom half of 'em to re-make these.

i'd do that though, you should gain at least an inch, maybe more given the combined return thing you have going on there.

hmm, are those the 3/4" bulkheads? that almost looks like 1" pipe coming off them, might be my eyes playing tricks.

[uncleof6]

You need to eliminate the horizontal run in your drainline(s). With a "durso" or open channel, it creates turbulence, which makes silencing the thing harder than it already is. In a siphon line, they can cause an air lock, and the system will not function properly.

You have a couple options: redesign the sump, or move the overflow, if you cannot get the geometry right. Now that I can see the sump, I see numerous things that can/should be done. Among them are, as I probably stated before, you have three sections that should be one section, (drain/socks/skimmer.) The drains should drop into your skimmer section, making the other two sections pointless. You have rock in another section. The rock is not doing anything beneficial for the system, all it is doing is creating more nitrates. I think with a little more critical thought, you can get the drainlines in without geometry problems. We will deal with the return pump being crammed into a tiny return section some other time...

Yeah, I am tough and I am rigid; and I don't pull many punches. But don't take it personally, because it is not personal. There are a lot of ways things can be done. I try to show folks how to make things work the way they are supposed to or should work, e.g. the right way. I do not encourage folks to make modifications unless it can be done "right." It is just putting band aids on top of band aids, it costs more and takes more work, than doing it the "right way" to start with.

[LXXero]

a small horizontal or diagonal run under the tank into the sump is usually not a big deal. a 5-10ft horizontal run, that's another story, but 1 or 2 feet is usually fine. the only time i've seen threads where people had issues with horizontal runs were when they did something clearly crazy like one thread where someone was going down into basement and then went like 10 feet across a wall or something. Of course that didn't work very well, heh. I have a short horizontal run on my siphon line and it's fine. I have never had a single problem with the BA setup on this tank:

http://www.xero.cc/fish/120_sump.jpg

of course i'm also doing other stupid **** like reducing down to 1" from 1.5" and later on i put a short Tee and some 90's off the siphon line to split it into the socks, i only did that just to quiet it down, but i'm sure if you asked around here you'd get told not to do any of those things, LOL. This tank has been the most problem-free of all my drain systems too, hahaha. My herbie was a lot more challenging to get right than this one.

looking at his photos, i would not be concerned at all. At least, not about that. I think they'd even be fine as horizontal as they are now, but i bet he could even get a slight diagonal on it if he plays around with some street 45's as i suggested before. There's also some oddball elbows like 22 degree and whatnot. I'd be more concerned about the 3/4 lines not taking enough flow than anything.

[jharding08]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

You need to eliminate the horizontal run in your drainline(s). With a "durso" or open channel, it creates turbulence, which makes silencing the thing harder than it already is. In a siphon line, they can cause an air lock, and the system will not function properly.

You have a couple options: redesign the sump, or move the overflow, if you cannot get the geometry right. Now that I can see the sump, I see numerous things that can/should be done. Among them are, as I probably stated before, you have three sections that should be one section, (drain/socks/skimmer.) The drains should drop into your skimmer section, making the other two sections pointless. You have rock in another section. The rock is not doing anything beneficial for the system, all it is doing is creating more nitrates. I think with a little more critical thought, you can get the drainlines in without geometry problems. We will deal with the return pump being crammed into a tiny return section some other time...

Yeah, I am tough and I am rigid; and I don't pull many punches. But don't take it personally, because it is not personal. There are a lot of ways things can be done. I try to show folks how to make things work the way they are supposed to or should work, e.g. the right way. I do not encourage folks to make modifications unless it can be done "right." It is just putting band aids on top of band aids, it costs more and takes more work, than doing it the "right way" to start with.

I appreciate your honesty when it comes to design and implementation. There are many ways to do plumbing/sump design, etc, and research shows that people have had success doing it many different ways, but I do have a background in physics and engineering (college) and do understand that there is a right way to do something based on the physics of it.

Now when it comes to biology of the sump design and mechanical vs. biological vs. chemical, this is where it gets less concrete, although there are basic methodologies and applications that should be followed.

99% of the way my system is designed is based on my research as to what other people have done, great feedback like this thread and some of my experience. The other 1% is usually my own bad decisions.

If something works for one setup, like my 120, it isnt guaranteed to work for another setup, especially with different types of overflows and different plumbing requirements.

I will figure it out, with the help of everyone here and get all of the DC6000 running through this sump!

Thanks again for everyones help, I learn more and more every day.

[jharding08]

Originally Posted by LXXero

a small horizontal or diagonal run under the tank into the sump is usually not a big deal. a 5-10ft horizontal run, that's another story, but 1 or 2 feet is usually fine. the only time i've seen threads where people had issues with horizontal runs were when they did something clearly crazy like one thread where someone was going down into basement and then went like 10 feet across a wall or something. Of course that didn't work very well, heh. I have a short horizontal run on my siphon line and it's fine. I have never had a single problem with the BA setup on this tank:

http://www.xero.cc/fish/120_sump.jpg

of course i'm also doing other stupid **** like reducing down to 1" from 1.5" and later on i put a short Tee and some 90's off the siphon line to split it into the socks, i only did that just to quiet it down, but i'm sure if you asked around here you'd get told not to do any of those things, LOL. This tank has been the most problem-free of all my drain systems too, hahaha. My herbie was a lot more challenging to get right than this one.

looking at his photos, i would not be concerned at all. At least, not about that. I think they'd even be fine as horizontal as they are now, but i bet he could even get a slight diagonal on it if he plays around with some street 45's as i suggested before. There's also some oddball elbows like 22 degree and whatnot. I'd be more concerned about the 3/4 lines not taking enough flow than anything.

Should I do unions and gate/ball valve true union right against the bulkheads? Not sure if theres room for them all, but I could save some space vs. the little bit of pipe I have between bulkhead and unions now.

I am still debating whether to move the sump to the right, so the drain chamber is closer to the bulkheads. I just need to see if i still have decent access to the skimmer and filter socks, since that is the area of the sump that I access weekly. They might be right behind that middle stand support.

If I do move the sump, I need to run the return at 45 degrees so it is hidden by the overflow behind the tank, I dont want to see it from the front.

Unless I put a black background on it. Not sure how easy that would be with it already in its final location and full of water and only about 3-4 inches behind the tank to work with

[LXXero]

Originally Posted by jharding08

Should I do unions and gate/ball valve true union right against the bulkheads? Not sure if theres room for them all, but I could save some space vs. the little bit of pipe I have between bulkhead and unions now.

I am still debating whether to move the sump to the right, so the drain chamber is closer to the bulkheads. I just need to see if i still have decent access to the skimmer and filter socks, since that is the area of the sump that I access weekly. They might be right behind that middle stand support.

If I do move the sump, I need to run the return at 45 degrees so it is hidden by the overflow behind the tank, I dont want to see it from the front.

Unless I put a black background on it. Not sure how easy that would be with it already in its final location and full of water and only about 3-4 inches behind the tank to work with

If you can safely scootch it all over to the right, go for it. But yeah, if it makes it impossible to work on, i don't think it's worth it. I'd consider it an emergency situation, like, only do it if nothing else works.

I wouldn't do valves/unions against the bulkheads unless you can actually reach the bulkheads. If you can, then it's fine. If you cant, then that is a problematic location for a valve. For a union it might be OK but i prefer unions to be in a "servicable" location since they do have rubber seals that may need eventual replacements.

You should really only need one valve on the drain, and it should preferably be a gate valve. I would definitely put a union around that valve so you can take things apart easier. The other lines don't truly need anything but unions help for servicing, I put most of my unions down by the sump though, except for the one on the valve which is higher up, above the valve.

I forgot your bulkheads are under the tank, so really, i think i'd put the gate valve further down near the sump if possible, mainly because it will keep the pressure built up til the very end

OK so adding the black background later may be easier than you think. I had to do that on my 120g with an external overflow, and it was more tedious than it was difficult. I use just black felt from a fabric store, and it sticks directly onto velcro hooks without even needing the other half of the velcro. So basically, just put some velcro on the tank, the spikey/hook side of the velcro. Then the felt will stick right to it. You may need to feed it behind/under stuff. I ended up attaching velcro to a piece of vinyl tubing and using it like a tool to pull the background behind the tank, then it all just attached to the velcro

[jharding08]

Originally Posted by LXXero

If you can safely scootch it all over to the right, go for it. But yeah, if it makes it impossible to work on, i don't think it's worth it. I'd consider it an emergency situation, like, only do it if nothing else works.

I wouldn't do valves/unions against the bulkheads unless you can actually reach the bulkheads. If you can, then it's fine. If you cant, then that is a problematic location for a valve. For a union it might be OK but i prefer unions to be in a "servicable" location since they do have rubber seals that may need eventual replacements.

You should really only need one valve on the drain, and it should preferably be a gate valve. I would definitely put a union around that valve so you can take things apart easier. The other lines don't truly need anything but unions help for servicing, I put most of my unions down by the sump though, except for the one on the valve which is higher up, above the valve.

I forgot your bulkheads are under the tank, so really, i think i'd put the gate valve further down near the sump if possible, mainly because it will keep the pressure built up til the very end

OK so adding the black background later may be easier than you think. I had to do that on my 120g with an external overflow, and it was more tedious than it was difficult. I use just black felt from a fabric store, and it sticks directly onto velcro hooks without even needing the other half of the velcro. So basically, just put some velcro on the tank, the spikey/hook side of the velcro. Then the felt will stick right to it. You may need to feed it behind/under stuff. I ended up attaching velcro to a piece of vinyl tubing and using it like a tool to pull the background behind the tank, then it all just attached to the velcro

Shouldn't the unions be as close to the bulkheads as possible, in case of possible replacement of the drain lines to the sump and/or cleaning of the plumbing, you would want to get as much of the pipe disconnected as possible? Even if the gate valve is closer to the sump than the bulkheads

[LXXero]

Originally Posted by jharding08

Shouldn't the unions be as close to the bulkheads as possible, in case of possible replacement of the drain lines to the sump and/or cleaning of the plumbing, you would want to get as much of the pipe disconnected as possible? Even if the gate valve is closer to the sump than the bulkheads

as long as you can reach em, sure.

its more a matter of what do you do if the union is leaking and you cant reach it.

or you can just use threaded bulkheads, then that's another way you can take it apart. but those can leak too and you need a union just so you can tighten them, lol, otherwise the whole thing being rigid means you'd be cutting it anyway. there's tradesoffs for everything

in my case, I used all slipxthread bulkheads. I can loosen the unions down below and then un-thread the pipe from the bulkheads. YMMV.