Question about copper treatment and nitrifying bacteria

Shark888 · 02/13/2018, 10:24 AM

Hello,

I've read a lot of topic on this forum and so I decided to setup a barely hospital tank to threat preventively all new coming fishes for 4 weeks with copper treatment (cupramine), once treatment finish, move fishes to a quarantine tank with liverock for 6 more weeks and after a total of 10 weeks move the fishes to the DT.

I know some people will disagree with the preventively copper treatment, but for me that's the only way to keep it safe as other process will require me a lot of time which I cannot afford at this moment.

The hospital tank and quarantine tank will be setup always running all the year.

Im planned to cycle both tank (hospital and quarantine tank) for avoid having to change water everyday because of ammonia.

So my question is about nitrifying bacteria, does copper will kill them once added ?

Also if I understand correctly, cupramine is supposed to be a strong cure that should kill any parasites/virus carrying by the fish. So why some of members here use first cupramine treatment then finish with paraguard ? Cupramine is supposed to have do all the job, no ?

That's my newbie questions, thank you.

Uncle99 · 02/13/2018, 01:03 PM

Copper will kill everything!
Why do you want to stress your fish?
Just watch carefully for 10 days or so, and if they act, eat swim and breath properly, send them to there final home..seems big time overkill to me....

Shark888 · 02/13/2018, 01:53 PM

Hello, that's what I did with my first fishes a week ago, put them directly in my DT (although I planned to put them first in QT only for observation as you said but QT not arrived in time coz of Chinese new year but that's another story).

So I added two orange mini clownfish 2.5cm (from one seller), one mandarin and one damsel (from another seller). The two orange clownfish died after 3 and 4 days in the DT, they were within 48 hours holding very tiny white spots, although Im not sure if it was not sand, whatever they died badly heavealy breathing at the end and I still don't know why they died.

Now Im left with the damsel and mandarin which seems fine at this moment.

I have also read a lot of topic on this forum and what I learned from reading many other's experience is that only obervation is not work, fish could carry many kind of parasites in hibernation and wake up when they want so Im sorry but I prefer take action prior to get my whole tank crash.

Uncle99 · 02/13/2018, 02:04 PM

Your right, no guarantees
Just seems 10 weeks is stressful on its own.

kiMxD · 02/13/2018, 11:17 PM

IME, second day of hospital tank dosing Copper Power. 1 orchid dottyback, 1 firefish goby, 1 orange spotted blenny, 1 Hawaiian zebra blenny and 1 yellow tang.

All eating normally, swimming normally, breathing normally and I am not even adding garlic to their food!

I’ve found the copper power treatment to be very easy and (apparently) is working...

Good luck mate!

Shark888 · 02/14/2018, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle99

Copper will kill everything!

Hello,

I saw other topic where some people said that copper treatment will not kill any nitrifying bacteria in the hospital tank so where is the true ?

Also, does a copper treatment enough to remove all know parasites/infections ? Or I have to treat the fish also with other cure such as paraguard ?

Uncle99 · 02/14/2018, 12:44 PM

my understanding is copper in certain quantiles kills "everything" that's why it is only used in QT or Hospital type setups which usually are glass, light, heater and water only.
While some are adding live rock, IMO, this makes absolutely no sense...ammonia and ph must be controlled manually and this is not difficult with water changes.
That being said, I can only attest to copper as a treatment for Ick, no experience outside of this disease. IMO, I just don't treat anything without some reason to do so as while copper can be easy, multiple meds can easily over stress the fish and you may get your Ick back.
Ick most always sets in when flish are stressed and/or not properly nourished. I would finish your treatment, continue to feed, watch their behavior and do nothing ekes unless you see and know what your treating. After your treatment, if you want to watch for another period or you are waiting fir your DT to finish its max 72 day fish less period, some including me maintain a lower salt content like 1.017-1.020 until ready for DT, then, bring it up to 1.023, or with corals 1.026, but only increase .001 per day...

Shark888 · 02/14/2018, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle99

multiple meds can easily over stress the fish and you may get your Ick back.
Ick most always sets in when flish are stressed and/or not properly nourished.

But how can the ick back if it was eradicated by the copper treatment ?

Uncle99 · 02/15/2018, 12:44 PM

Many believe that Ick is always present in a reef environment, but in such low numbers that fish which are unstressed, well feed and strong are not affected. I have noticed through the years that Ick appeared only to take hold when a tank was not maintained or that the environment became a source of stress through territory disputes and fighting.
I am not sure what to believe, but since my last rebuild 15 months ago, I made sure that each item going in was clean, water was always fresh and on point to NSW, and that inhabitants were all peaceful players, rightly sized for the tank, and lots of room.
So maybe just lucky, but 15 months gone now, no death, no aggression, no stress and no Ick....hum?
That's not to say it cannot enter the tank, it can, but if your fish are happy and strong, It cannot take hold...

nereefpat · 02/15/2018, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle99

Many believe that Ick is always present in a reef environment, but in such low numbers that fish which are unstressed, well feed and strong are not affected.

And many would be wrong.

Pasteur disproved spontaneous generation in the 1800s.

mako61 · 02/15/2018, 10:35 PM

At proper levels copper treatment does not significantly effect nitrifying bacteria, it can reduce it a little. I use a little ceramic media from my DT in my QT so it starts off cycled. Currently Im running Cupramine and no ammonia. I use a Seachem ammonia disk just to be sure. ( i highly recommend disk for a QT )

mako61 · 02/15/2018, 11:03 PM

one last thing. If you are using cupramine, test for ammonia with the seachem ammonia test and/or disk. cupramine uses something in its formula that will give false positives in other ammonia tests. ( per their website ) I also use the seachem copper test just to be safe.

Uncle99 · 02/16/2018, 12:25 PM

Not by spontaneous, but through what is described " a hibernation " effect which in a sample of cases extended up to a year....

Rotifers can stay dormant for years waiting for their environment to meet their needs and when this happens....poof.....they hatch and start dividing......

What about brine shrimp? Do these not come to life after adding water?

In the 1800 some still believe the world was flat too!

Uncle99 · 02/16/2018, 12:28 PM

After three weeks of copper at .06, my cycle was disrupted.
But enough remained and back to even afte 3 more weeks...

02/13/2018, 10:24 AM	#1
Shark888 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: French in China Posts: 178	Question about copper treatment and nitrifying bacteria Hello, I've read a lot of topic on this forum and so I decided to setup a barely hospital tank to threat preventively all new coming fishes for 4 weeks with copper treatment (cupramine), once treatment finish, move fishes to a quarantine tank with liverock for 6 more weeks and after a total of 10 weeks move the fishes to the DT. I know some people will disagree with the preventively copper treatment, but for me that's the only way to keep it safe as other process will require me a lot of time which I cannot afford at this moment. The hospital tank and quarantine tank will be setup always running all the year. Im planned to cycle both tank (hospital and quarantine tank) for avoid having to change water everyday because of ammonia. So my question is about nitrifying bacteria, does copper will kill them once added ? Also if I understand correctly, cupramine is supposed to be a strong cure that should kill any parasites/virus carrying by the fish. So why some of members here use first cupramine treatment then finish with paraguard ? Cupramine is supposed to have do all the job, no ? That's my newbie questions, thank you.

02/15/2018, 10:35 PM	#11
mako61 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Dallas Posts: 359	At proper levels copper treatment does not significantly effect nitrifying bacteria, it can reduce it a little. I use a little ceramic media from my DT in my QT so it starts off cycled. Currently Im running Cupramine and no ammonia. I use a Seachem ammonia disk just to be sure. ( i highly recommend disk for a QT ) __________________ Thanks, Mako Current Tank Info: Returning Reefer - Red Sea 525XL, Mitras LX7s, Apex, check homepage for vids of tank

02/15/2018, 11:03 PM	#12
mako61 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Dallas Posts: 359	one last thing. If you are using cupramine, test for ammonia with the seachem ammonia test and/or disk. cupramine uses something in its formula that will give false positives in other ammonia tests. ( per their website ) I also use the seachem copper test just to be safe. __________________ Thanks, Mako Current Tank Info: Returning Reefer - Red Sea 525XL, Mitras LX7s, Apex, check homepage for vids of tank

02/16/2018, 12:25 PM	#13
Uncle99 Crab Free Zone Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,906	Not by spontaneous, but through what is described " a hibernation " effect which in a sample of cases extended up to a year.... Rotifers can stay dormant for years waiting for their environment to meet their needs and when this happens....poof.....they hatch and start dividing...... What about brine shrimp? Do these not come to life after adding water? In the 1800 some still believe the world was flat too! Last edited by Uncle99; 02/17/2018 at 07:53 AM.

02/13/2018, 01:03 PM	#2
Uncle99 Crab Free Zone Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,906	Copper will kill everything! Why do you want to stress your fish? Just watch carefully for 10 days or so, and if they act, eat swim and breath properly, send them to there final home..seems big time overkill to me....

02/13/2018, 01:53 PM	#3
Shark888 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: French in China Posts: 178	Hello, that's what I did with my first fishes a week ago, put them directly in my DT (although I planned to put them first in QT only for observation as you said but QT not arrived in time coz of Chinese new year but that's another story). So I added two orange mini clownfish 2.5cm (from one seller), one mandarin and one damsel (from another seller). The two orange clownfish died after 3 and 4 days in the DT, they were within 48 hours holding very tiny white spots, although Im not sure if it was not sand, whatever they died badly heavealy breathing at the end and I still don't know why they died. Now Im left with the damsel and mandarin which seems fine at this moment. I have also read a lot of topic on this forum and what I learned from reading many other's experience is that only obervation is not work, fish could carry many kind of parasites in hibernation and wake up when they want so Im sorry but I prefer take action prior to get my whole tank crash.

02/13/2018, 02:04 PM	#4
Uncle99 Crab Free Zone Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,906	Your right, no guarantees Just seems 10 weeks is stressful on its own.

02/13/2018, 11:17 PM	#5
kiMxD Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 149	IME, second day of hospital tank dosing Copper Power. 1 orchid dottyback, 1 firefish goby, 1 orange spotted blenny, 1 Hawaiian zebra blenny and 1 yellow tang. All eating normally, swimming normally, breathing normally and I am not even adding garlic to their food! I’ve found the copper power treatment to be very easy and (apparently) is working... Good luck mate!

02/14/2018, 12:44 PM	#7
Uncle99 Crab Free Zone Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,906	my understanding is copper in certain quantiles kills "everything" that's why it is only used in QT or Hospital type setups which usually are glass, light, heater and water only. While some are adding live rock, IMO, this makes absolutely no sense...ammonia and ph must be controlled manually and this is not difficult with water changes. That being said, I can only attest to copper as a treatment for Ick, no experience outside of this disease. IMO, I just don't treat anything without some reason to do so as while copper can be easy, multiple meds can easily over stress the fish and you may get your Ick back. Ick most always sets in when flish are stressed and/or not properly nourished. I would finish your treatment, continue to feed, watch their behavior and do nothing ekes unless you see and know what your treating. After your treatment, if you want to watch for another period or you are waiting fir your DT to finish its max 72 day fish less period, some including me maintain a lower salt content like 1.017-1.020 until ready for DT, then, bring it up to 1.023, or with corals 1.026, but only increase .001 per day...

02/15/2018, 12:44 PM	#9
Uncle99 Crab Free Zone Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,906	Many believe that Ick is always present in a reef environment, but in such low numbers that fish which are unstressed, well feed and strong are not affected. I have noticed through the years that Ick appeared only to take hold when a tank was not maintained or that the environment became a source of stress through territory disputes and fighting. I am not sure what to believe, but since my last rebuild 15 months ago, I made sure that each item going in was clean, water was always fresh and on point to NSW, and that inhabitants were all peaceful players, rightly sized for the tank, and lots of room. So maybe just lucky, but 15 months gone now, no death, no aggression, no stress and no Ick....hum? That's not to say it cannot enter the tank, it can, but if your fish are happy and strong, It cannot take hold...

02/16/2018, 12:28 PM	#14
Uncle99 Crab Free Zone Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,906	After three weeks of copper at .06, my cycle was disrupted. But enough remained and back to even afte 3 more weeks...