White Knights....thoughts?

[velvetelvis]

Originally Posted by BonsaiNut

I agree with you Ron, but I come at it from a slightly different perspective.

I've been keeping marine aquariums for over 30 years. In the 80's, there were only a handful of people who had successfully bred and raised clownfish, and almost no one who sold them (probably fewer than five). The problems were rife, and one of the most prominent was nutrition and flaws associated with poor nutrition. It became apparent that poor nutrition caused poor coloration in the fry, as well misbarring and other issues. Captive raised fish sold at a discount to wild caught fish because they were poorer quality. You were lucky if you got more than $2 per fish (wholesale) even if you culled aggressively and kept only the best. Every now and then if you were lucky you could find someone to take your culls as feeders.

And then a strange thing started to happen. People started buying culls because they thought they looked "cute" or were funny or interesting. Nutrition improved to the point that you COULD raise clowns that were at quality parity to wild caught - but it is still difficult and expensive. But why bother if there is a market for misbars or culls that require half the work, cheaper food, and actually (and here is the shock) can be sold at a premium.

Now anyone with a basement or garage can raise clowns with 50% success rate or higher, give them a designer name, and sell them to someone who thinks they are getting something "special". Misbarring hides the obvious flaws associated with poor husbandry. How can you tell whether you have a good quality fish when they all look like a poor quality fish from a wild caught pair?

Interestingly, it is the exact OPPOSITE of how people buy koi. Champion koi can cost tens of thousands of dollars - but the first criteria is and always has been PERFECT health - PERFECT body - PERFECT quality. Only AFTER these things are present do people start to look at color and pattern.

So if you want to pay $250 for a fish that cost $.25 to raise, and if it makes you happy, go for it. But be honest with yourself about what you are buying. I have paid more for koi that jumped out of a pond, or got eaten by a heron, so at the end of the day you have to somewhat philosophical about it. But I am saddened by the "quick buck" breeders and the depressing effect acceptance of low quality has on the captive-raised marine industry in general.

Not trying to make people who love designer clowns feel bad, but to me, a beautiful clownfish is one that looks strong and healthy, and as close to the natural wild form as possible. What bothers me about many designer fish is exactly what you describe above: poorly raised, poorly shaped fish that are propagated solely for novel colors and patterns.

I worry sometimes that the "guppification" of clownfish may actually drive up the demand for wild-caught fish, simply because they look better than so many of the substandard clowns that have been flooding the market. Captive breeding should relieve the pressure on wild fish populations. I realize that ocellaris and percs are bread-and-butter fish for most hatcheries, but that's no excuse for marketing and selling clearly inferior-quality fish.

I can remember a time when ORA briefly offered "stubby" ocellaris...ORA, one of the leaders in the industry, marketing culls? We don't need a saltwater version of the parrot cichlid.

I'm not tarring all designer clowns (or breeders) with the same brush.But I do think that clownfish breeders should follow the example of koi breeders, as cited above, and select their livestock for health, shape, and conformation above all else.

[shred5]

Originally Posted by BonsaiNut

I agree with you Ron, but I come at it from a slightly different perspective.

I've been keeping marine aquariums for over 30 years. In the 80's, there were only a handful of people who had successfully bred and raised clownfish, and almost no one who sold them (probably fewer than five). The problems were rife, and one of the most prominent was nutrition and flaws associated with poor nutrition. It became apparent that poor nutrition caused poor coloration in the fry, as well misbarring and other issues. Captive raised fish sold at a discount to wild caught fish because they were poorer quality. You were lucky if you got more than $2 per fish (wholesale) even if you culled aggressively and kept only the best. Every now and then if you were lucky you could find someone to take your culls as feeders.

And then a strange thing started to happen. People started buying culls because they thought they looked "cute" or were funny or interesting. Nutrition improved to the point that you COULD raise clowns that were at quality parity to wild caught - but it is still difficult and expensive. But why bother if there is a market for misbars or culls that require half the work, cheaper food, and actually (and here is the shock) can be sold at a premium.

Now anyone with a basement or garage can raise clowns with 50% success rate or higher, give them a designer name, and sell them to someone who thinks they are getting something "special". Misbarring hides the obvious flaws associated with poor husbandry. How can you tell whether you have a good quality fish when they all look like a poor quality fish from a wild caught pair?

Interestingly, it is the exact OPPOSITE of how people buy koi. Champion koi can cost tens of thousands of dollars - but the first criteria is and always has been PERFECT health - PERFECT body - PERFECT quality. Only AFTER these things are present do people start to look at color and pattern.

So if you want to pay $250 for a fish that cost $.25 to raise, and if it makes you happy, go for it. But be honest with yourself about what you are buying. I have paid more for koi that jumped out of a pond, or got eaten by a heron, so at the end of the day you have to somewhat philosophical about it. But I am saddened by the "quick buck" breeders and the depressing effect acceptance of low quality has on the captive-raised marine industry in general.

I completely agree with Ron and you.

I come from the same boat. I remember breeding clowns and trying to get everything perfect. I remember using the smallest rigid tubing in order to clean the bottom of the tank, raising the highest quality algae to enrich rotifers, finding the highest quality parents, etc to produce a perfect set of clowns.


I don't get the fuss over designer clowns at all. I think they are gross and gaudy.

We are in a new era of designer fish and corals though. People seem to be willing to spend allot of money on things that will be dirt cheap later. These people seem to be willing to spend a ton of money but they are out of the hobby after a few years after the inevitable crash. Money doesn't solve all problems. I have known pretty many of these people lately. They get in over their head and spend a fortune on equipment and livestock but never find the time to learn the biology behind this hobby. They seem to jump on every new fad to solve issues without even knowing the long term affects, they don't listen to the experienced people, mix things that should not be mixed.. Basically in two three years they are out.

But hey to each his own I guess.

[Cicatrix]

Variations in color and patterns are simply genetic defects that are passed on through selective breeding. When one genetic defect exists, more exist. Only time will tell which other genetic defects will go from genotype to phenotype.

We have seen similar things for hundreds of years in other breeding populations such as in dogs and horses. The difference with fish is that there is no recognized AKC or thoroughbred society overseeing the breeding and development of these "new morphs."

The average person who purchases these animals may never recognize the expression of the various genetic defects that are present. A fish that dies suddenly after a few years or begins to act abnormally is more likely to be (falsely) explained by other reasons as opposed to the genetic flaws present in the animal.

I personally don't have any moral objection to people who breed these fish for oddball coloration and then sell them at a premium. It should be up to the consumer to realize what they are buying and alter their expectations accordingly in regards to the overall health of the animal.

[CerealKiller024]

Please can someone tell me why you all think just because I don't have the same clownfish as you do that mine is somehow genetically flawed.It swims in water and doesn't seem to have any ill effects. It has a different color pattern then other no big deal. If people want them let them. I totally agree with Cicatrix "We have seen similar things for hundreds of years in other breeding populations such as in dogs and horses." God I'd hate to see if we had the internet when the mule made its first appearance. And I encourage people who read this to write back about there great designer clowns. White knights,Picasso,Wyoming Whites,Onyx,snowflakes and all the rest. Just because people can post half page posts about all the experience in the world they have yet how many of them are marine biologists or geneticist probably not that many. Don't be afraid to show you style!

[Cicatrix]

Originally Posted by CerealKiller024

Please can someone tell me why you all think just because I don't have the same clownfish as you do that mine is somehow genetically flawed.

The abnormal color/pattern is itself the genetic flaw.

You can make the argument that your "designer" clownfish is perfectly healthy, and it very well may be healthy, but simply by the fact that its patterning is not the intended patterning of its species is why it is a genetic anomaly.

There is a reason these variations don't exist en masse in nature. Sure, you may see a few abnormal variants here and there (albino, xanthachromic, abnormal patterning) but for the most part they are few and far between. Why? Genetic selection and survivability. The abnormal coloration, for whatever reason, is associated with a decreased survival. Maybe its because the abnormal coloration makes them more prone to being seen by predators. Maybe its because of the unseen ineptitudes which come along with those variations.

One thing we know for certain from science is that genes rarely code for one phenotypically expressed trait. So its reasonable to believe that the gene that codes for enhanced patterning or increased color tones would also code for other genetic variations, some which may not be easily identifiable. Simply selecting one gene to highlight with selective breeding does not negate the fact you are also, by default, selecting for everything else attributed to that gene.

You also referenced my comment to dogs and horses but I think you may have misinterpreted its intentions. I was commenting that for hundreds of years breeders have worked to perfect certain traits in domesticated animals, often resulting in negative (but to many, still acceptable) health problems. So a breed of dog that is manipulated over many generations to have thicker fur, stockier legs and a gentle temperament may also be prone to heart or kidney diseases. We, as a society, accept this because the genetically desirable traits are obvious while the genetically UNdesirable traits may not be so obvious...at least not throughout the entire life of the animal or not outwardly expressed. So you have your playful, furry, curly tailed puppy running around your backyard but hopefully with the knowledge that regular veterinarian visits are necessary to monitor for the known possibilities of disease.

So what does this all come down to?

Well, breeders will continue to "produce" animals that display desirable traits whether they be colors, size, temperament or patterns. These variants will command premium prices in a market that is regulated by supply and demand. In an industry that is not well regulated the onus is always going to be on the purchaser to understand the lineage of the animal and not have unrealistic expectations regarding the health of the animal.

[hvacman250]

As an amatuer clownfish breeder, I would have culled that first fish with an underbite that bad. NO WAY would I put my name on a fish that looks like that and expect $200.

Edit: and FWIW, I LOVE the irregular clowns. I own about every pair of Ocy and Perc known to man, with the Snow Onyx being my favorite. These look like Snow Onyx to me. Beautiful fish, but definately has deformities that should greatly affect its value.

[hypnoj]

wow, quite the soap box some of you have chose to stand on. What's the downfall of having these genetic abnormalities? That the life span of these fish may be shortened? Seriously, what is the life expectancy of the average saltwater fish? We are not the ocean. We're not even close to the ocean. Genetic variation, causing the difference in color of clowns, brings no bad consequences to this trade statistically. People spend whop'n amounts of money at every turn in this hobby and we're all looking for something unique and different. It has a bent face, or swims weird? As long as it is eating properly and seems to live fine in the tank who cares? I think some fish breeders are just jealous that they didn't get the design first in their tank. I fully enjoy my designer dog, designer cat, and designer fish. I really, really enjoy my designer, multicultural adopted children, with their flaws, that even though cost me (in the end) way more then all my pets combined are still my best purchase! (ok, that last part about the kids was a lie, but you get my point) As long as they're not hurting anyone, I say hooray for genetic variation!!

[D-Nak]

Originally Posted by hypnoj

wow, quite the soap box some of you have chose to stand on. What's the downfall of having these genetic abnormalities? That the life span of these fish may be shortened? Seriously, what is the life expectancy of the average saltwater fish? We are not the ocean. We're not even close to the ocean. Genetic variation, causing the difference in color of clowns, brings no bad consequences to this trade statistically. People spend whop'n amounts of money at every turn in this hobby and we're all looking for something unique and different. It has a bent face, or swims weird? As long as it is eating properly and seems to live fine in the tank who cares? I think some fish breeders are just jealous that they didn't get the design first in their tank. I fully enjoy my designer dog, designer cat, and designer fish. I really, really enjoy my designer, multicultural adopted children, with their flaws, that even though cost me (in the end) way more then all my pets combined are still my best purchase! (ok, that last part about the kids was a lie, but you get my point) As long as they're not hurting anyone, I say hooray for genetic variation!!

I think this has more to do with education. Some folks don't know the history of these fish. Do what you will with the information, I just think it's nice to have a different perspective. I know that I personally would rather make an educated decision than one based on how cool others think something is.

[Cicatrix]

Originally Posted by hypnoj

wow, quite the soap box some of you have chose to stand on. What's the downfall of having these genetic abnormalities? That the life span of these fish may be shortened? Seriously, what is the life expectancy of the average saltwater fish? We are not the ocean. We're not even close to the ocean. Genetic variation, causing the difference in color of clowns, brings no bad consequences to this trade statistically. People spend whop'n amounts of money at every turn in this hobby and we're all looking for something unique and different. It has a bent face, or swims weird? As long as it is eating properly and seems to live fine in the tank who cares? I think some fish breeders are just jealous that they didn't get the design first in their tank. I fully enjoy my designer dog, designer cat, and designer fish. I really, really enjoy my designer, multicultural adopted children, with their flaws, that even though cost me (in the end) way more then all my pets combined are still my best purchase! (ok, that last part about the kids was a lie, but you get my point) As long as they're not hurting anyone, I say hooray for genetic variation!!

I can't really disagree with anything you said. As I said above, I have no objection to breeding animals to meet specifications desired by the marketplace. We do it for ornamental reasons (our tanks) and we do it for gustatory reasons (think Purdue chicken). My only "hitch" would be for consumers to be educated about their animals and how they came to be.

When no one is paying attention, history repeats itself.

Twisty Cats

[09bumblebee]

I like them, they are unique. I'm waiting for my plat clowns to show up.

[hvacman250]

Originally Posted by hypnoj

wow, quite the soap box some of you have chose to stand on. What's the downfall of having these genetic abnormalities? That the life span of these fish may be shortened? Seriously, what is the life expectancy of the average saltwater fish? We are not the ocean. We're not even close to the ocean. Genetic variation, causing the difference in color of clowns, brings no bad consequences to this trade statistically. People spend whop'n amounts of money at every turn in this hobby and we're all looking for something unique and different. It has a bent face, or swims weird? As long as it is eating properly and seems to live fine in the tank who cares? I think some fish breeders are just jealous that they didn't get the design first in their tank. I fully enjoy my designer dog, designer cat, and designer fish. I really, really enjoy my designer, multicultural adopted children, with their flaws, that even though cost me (in the end) way more then all my pets combined are still my best purchase! (ok, that last part about the kids was a lie, but you get my point) As long as they're not hurting anyone, I say hooray for genetic variation!!

Would you pay $500 for a designer dog with a bad underbite, blind in one eye, and missing half its tail? Of course, you wouldnt.

Would you adopt one for free from an animal shelter? Sure.

The problem I have is not the color, its the deformities. A GOOD breeder can breed the crazy colors but without the flared gills, smushed face, bad underbite, etc. These problems are from poor water quality. If you want to charge $200+ for a fish, spend $50 extra dollars on water/salt and change some water and feed them quality food.

A champion dog breeder would never sell a non-show quality dog for a show dog price.

[badharley99]

If you are happy thats all that matters

[CerealKiller024]

Originally Posted by badharley99

If you are happy thats all that matters

+1. And leave his under bite alone the dentist is fitting his braces.

[Criley7]

Thanks again for the input guy and girls. I appreciate you taking the time to share your “thoughts” on designer clownfish, but I think a few of you may have gotten a little off topic.
I know the first White Knight has a slight protruding jaw, but I think it is cool. Makes him that much more unique. He reminds me of Jay Leno. I guess his parents should have culled him too. LOL. I think that’s why online sites have WYSIWYG videos so you can see exactly what you are buying.
But in all seriousness I think the White Knights genetic makeup speaks for itself. These babies are combination of my favorite which are a Rods Onyx, Donis **name removed because of legal threat from trademark holder**, and a Snowflake. I don’t think you can get any better. Thanks again for your opinions

[rickyjai8]

i own a pair of these is first gen so far i really like the way how it look i cant wait till it get to full size

[Cicatrix]

Originally Posted by Criley7

But in all seriousness I think the White Knights genetic makeup speaks for itself.

They are genetically flawed fish bred for designer looks with no regard to the animals health.

Originally Posted by Criley7

These babies are combination of my favorite which are a Rods Onyx, Donis **name removed because of legal threat from trademark holder**, and a Snowflake. I don’t think you can get any better.

The variants you listed above are also the results of selective breeding. You can interbreed any combination of genetically flawed fish and you still end up with a genetically flawed fish. I'm confused as to what you mean by "better."

Listen, I said it above, I have no problem with breeding these fish for their patterns and I certainly have no problem with people making money off of them. And least of all I have no issue with people spending their own money to place these fish in their tanks. If you like them then by all means buy them and don't worry if other people think they "look cool."

But to claim these fish have strong breeding lines, pure genetics and proven health is completely false. They don't. They're genetic experiments created and cultivated to appeal to a select market.

[shred5]

I am on no soap box. I just plain think that most designer clown are flat out ugly .. I do not buy something just because it different. I don't care how different the Nissan cube is I will not buy it, just plain ugly.

[CerealKiller024]

Originally Posted by shred5

I am on no soap box. I just plain think that most designer clown are flat out ugly .. I do not buy something just because it different. I don't care how different the Nissan cube is I will not buy it, just plain ugly.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Or beer holder depending!

Really you've never bought anything for your tank because it looks different then things you've seen in others?

[BonsaiNut]

My point has nothing to do with appearance, and everything to do with sloppy husbandry and cheap marketing. It is easier and cheaper to raise flawed clownfish than perfect ones. Just as it is easier and cheaper to raise low quality dogs than high quality ones (i.e. puppy mills). If you want to go ahead and raise clown parrot fish and call them "Tom's Golden Showers Miracle Clowns" there's no law preventing you. Just like there's no law preventing people from paying $500 for your snake oil. I am a personal fan of quality over quantity, and healthy over runt. I just don't want to hear people trying to tell me that misbars, humped backs, smashed faces, bent fins, bulging eyes, or any other abnormalities are "rare" when in fact they are easier to create than not... "Easier" normally equates with "lower price". But hey, it's your money.

[LargeAngels]

I also think that the fish should be physically formed the same as a wild caught specimen. I really can't stand the deformities I see in some of these fish. I really don't care for most of these color schemes, but if someone likes them great, enjoy them. Just don't continue with the deformities.

[velvetelvis]

Originally Posted by hvacman250

The problem I have is not the color, its the deformities. A GOOD breeder can breed the crazy colors but without the flared gills, smushed face, bad underbite, etc. These problems are from poor water quality. If you want to charge $200+ for a fish, spend $50 extra dollars on water/salt and change some water and feed them quality food.

This.

It isn't the crazy striping (or lack of). It's the facial and head deformities and bad conformation. It's just plain irresponsible and greedy to perpetuate poorly bred, poorly raised fish, PERIOD. The fact that these breeders then charge outrageous prices for them just because they have novelty value and fancy names adds insult to injury.

I don't have a philosophical objection to designer morphs, though they're not my cup of tea, but I do have a big problem with breeders selling deformed fish. The uniqueness should come from the fishes' colors and patterns, not from bulldog faces and stunted fins. In form, they should be identical to wild clownfish--that is, healthy, normal fish. I don't care whether or not I personally think a fish is pretty. I do care whether or not fish are being bred and raised responsibly.

[aandfsoccr04]

I can't really believe how much hating there is in this thread. I don't think that just because a fish has a different color pattern or variant than seen in the wild, that it is flawed or something is wrong with it. Some people choose to replicate their tanks to look like the ocean and that's fine. Other people want to make their tanks unique or different and stock it with things that appeal to them and that's fine too. It's just a personal preference of what you think is attractive and at a cost you are willing to pay. I paid $300 for my "designer" clowns and I love them. I don't care what anyone else on the forum says about them because I'm the one that looks at them everyday and am very thrilled with my purchase. If they are your favorite, then get them.

[shred5]

You know what I noticed. Look at the join dates.. most people who hate designer clowns have been in the hobby along time. Most of the people that defend them have joined within the last two years and most within a year.

What does that mean?

[aandfsoccr04]

It means that people who have been in the hobby a long time don't care for the hobby to change all that much. People who have been in the hobby over ten years are probably over the age of thirty and had tanks set up a long time and don't like the changes that have been made in the hobby recently.

People that are joining in the past year or two are more likely to be teens to late twenties and are the reason the hobby is changing to what it is today. We like to have stuff in our tank that is rare or uncommon and are willing to pay a premium for it when people who have been in the hobby for longer than ten years are used to paying ten dollars for just an acan or a chalice or what have you when we have only known paying ten or twenty dollars all the way up to hundreds of dollars per head or eye or whatever of the latest greatest limited edition ultra rare super colorful whatever is in frag at the time. Same thing with the designer clowns. They are the new thing and people can charge a premium for them, which is smart business if you ask me, and people will pay the premium that breeders are charging. You should charge whatever the market will bear and the demand for the clowns is what sets the supply level and I don't see designer clowns going anywhere in the next few years.

[Cicatrix]

Originally Posted by aandfsoccr04

I don't think that just because a fish has a different color pattern or variant than seen in the wild, that it is flawed or something is wrong with it.

You are stating your opinion, however the science and genetics behind the animal says just the opposite.

The entire reason an unusual pattern exists is BECAUSE of a genetic flaw.

If it WEREN'T a genetic flaw then the fish would have normal coloration and build.

The entire reason you people like these fish is because they HAVE abnormal genes. These fish are genetic mistakes that are bred along until the mistakes are phenotypically expressed in all the offspring.

There are two issues at hand:
1. These fish are genetic mutations that are cultivated to express those flawed genes
2. You are free to purchase, own, breed and sell them as much as you like

But you can't possibly accept number 2 without the realization that number 1 is correct. You can't state that these fish have "pure" breeding or are genetically normal...because if they were you wouldn't have the abnormal coloration to swoon over.

I'm at a loss trying to see why that's a difficult concept to understand. Must be my over-30 brain using too much logic.