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01/20/2016, 05:44 PM | #2751 |
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Reef Diva you can't spot heal a dino infested reef tank. You would need to attack the sand, water column, rocks and buried cysts all at once. Filling the tank with this stuff would for sure leave some dinos alive that would in a couple of days infest the whole tank again.
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01/20/2016, 05:57 PM | #2752 |
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Hey Guys,
Good news... My dino culture has exploded. I have dinos all over the place. So instead of the usual $9.99 sale that I always have, you can have some for one very special low price of $4.99. If you are unsure if you need dinos in your system, take a look at the important bullets below to see how they can affect your system. And my type of dinos is not the cheap kind that most other people have. My strain is a lot more advanced and will survive in the most harsh conditions. You will definitely be getting your money's worth. Moving onto the Impact that Dinos Can Have on Your Reef System: 1. Have corals? Don't want them anymore? Dinos will take care of them for you. 2. Have Corals? Want them? Dinos will act as a friend and hug your corals. 3. Tired of that shiny white sand? Dinos will turn it brown for you. 4. Can't keep anything alive? Try dinos, they will live! 5. Like Magic? They will appear when lights are on and vanish when lights are off. I still don't know how they do it. AMAZING! I don't expect to sell out today, tomorrow, or the next day, so if you are unsure if you want some, you have time to think about it. I will also be taking offers if they don't sell within the next 2 months. SPECIAL BONUS: I don't normally do this. But if you buy 2, I'll throw one in for free!! Yup, FREE! Regards, Billy |
01/20/2016, 06:05 PM | #2753 | |
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01/20/2016, 07:12 PM | #2754 | |
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01/20/2016, 09:29 PM | #2755 |
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I just caught a message from Quiet Ivy I missed a few messages ago. You asked if what I had was dinoflagellates and not cyano. Yes it is very easy for me to distinguish dinoflagellates from any color of cyanobacteria (green, red, brown) since I have been looking at it and studying it (particularly cyano) for over 30 years. Dinoflagellates are hard to distinguish from brown slime algae when they first occur and the amount is very small (like on the tips of an SPS coral). Sometimes you just need to leave it alone and see what develops. Let it get a little bigger instead of constantly brushing it off with a toothbrush. I know because I was doing this. Finally I stopped and I saw why it kept coming back so fast - Dinoflagellates.
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01/20/2016, 09:33 PM | #2756 |
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Manny
You are giving up prematurely! Not ask yourself, are you a quitter or are you a fighter! Hang in there and pick up the phone. You know what I mean. |
01/20/2016, 09:57 PM | #2757 |
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01/20/2016, 10:08 PM | #2758 |
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01/20/2016, 10:29 PM | #2759 |
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Patience is the best method. Then pick something a few others have had success with(I think some in this thread are keeping notes or building a sort of matrix like Ivy), find out as much about their system as you can to know if it fits your setup or husbandry, and then stick with it for a few month not just a few days. Sure there's people that have had quick reactions but that is not normal for these kinds of pests. Dinos and Bryopsis are very persistent.
I know I will always have dinos in my system just waiting to get the upper hand. I'm sure I haven't seen the last of bryopsis either. But when, not if, either show up I know (or assume with great confidence) that I just need to get back in line what ever is out of whack from what I've done in the past along with a strong dose of patience and consistency.
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rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank |
01/20/2016, 11:39 PM | #2760 |
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Update from post #2369: I've been super busy with my new job and other things that I didn't get a chance to update everyone. The Dinos came back. After about 2 weeks they started to grow and spread. I've tried a few things the past few weeks and I think it's helping. They have not been growing. They have been dying but 100% elimination seems like a long way from now. I can say that I refuse to turn down my lighting. I have been adding my elements, amino, and feeding. I'm not going to allow anymore corals to die. I'm determined to kill this mess. I discovered a high powered microscope at my facility and I'm going to identify it. I'm pretty sure that it's the same mess everyone else is dealing with. I'm not as down as I was before, I'm more determined to get rid of it.
What I'm doing: 1st since my SPS have been fading, I'm dosing nitrates via Spectracide Stump Remover. Keeping my nitrates at 5ppm. 2nd since peroxide has been helping with some, I've been dosing that too. Cutting off my return pump so the water is only circulating inside the tanks and not going down to the skimmer. 3rdly I've been dosing Garlic. I felt that my fish were suffering so I decided to help there immune system by giving them more garlic in there food and running carbon. I saw on her that someone decided to dose so I said what the heck. Sure worth a try. So along with peroxide I've been dosing at night while cutting off the return pump. my Dinos have only been on rocks and frag plugs. Never on sand. I believe the Dinos are getting darker which seems like they are dying and maybe cyano was under them or waiting to sweep in. I'll keep you all posted.
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If you knew better, you would do better....... 😏 Current Tank Info: 90 Gallon: Coralife Aqualife Pro 492W MH, Proflex Model 3 Refugium Sump, Jabeo WP-25 wavemaker, Bubble Magnus NAC6, Finnex 500W heater w/controller, Mag 9.5 Pump, SPS, LPS, Zoas, RBTAs, Fishes, Shrimps, Crabs, CUC, and Snails |
01/21/2016, 01:55 PM | #2761 |
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Ugh, I am discouraged. The sand was white just a few days ago and now it is brown again. The skimmer overflowed twice in two days and was dumping back into the sump and now the sand is brown. Plus I was feeding more. Why does it seem to get worse after I feed more if I am supposed to feed more?
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01/21/2016, 02:01 PM | #2762 | |
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01/21/2016, 07:00 PM | #2763 |
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Does anyone know a good link to identify my dinoflagellates
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If you knew better, you would do better....... 😏 Current Tank Info: 90 Gallon: Coralife Aqualife Pro 492W MH, Proflex Model 3 Refugium Sump, Jabeo WP-25 wavemaker, Bubble Magnus NAC6, Finnex 500W heater w/controller, Mag 9.5 Pump, SPS, LPS, Zoas, RBTAs, Fishes, Shrimps, Crabs, CUC, and Snails |
01/21/2016, 07:25 PM | #2764 |
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I felt bad being subscribed to this thread and not having dinos. So I decided to get some!
I think I succeeded. Is this amphidinium? Video https://youtu.be/vmapxCpiDJ8 Sandbed where sampe came from |
01/21/2016, 08:18 PM | #2765 |
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Has anyone tried Dr. Tims Re Fresh to combat Dino's?
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01/21/2016, 09:14 PM | #2766 | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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Really, really needed to take a couple weeks off to not think about dinos -- at this point, I'm half convinced dinoflagellates are the zombie plague organism in The Walking Dead's universe, and Patient Zero was a reefer.
Back for Q&A time, but everybody remember that a lot of this is new to me, too, so I'm *not* the guy with all the answers. I'm nothing more than another hobbyist lost in the dark with everyone else. At best, I'm the guy with the flashlight. And if you've ever been in this situation IRL, you know the guy with the flashlight is always kind of a douche and won't shine the light where you want him to... Sorry about that. But the good news is that I'm handing out free flashlights, so if you want one, just ask. And read. There's a lot of reading involved, and I'm not talking about my dismayingly lengthy posts. Quote:
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Has anybody tried growing phyto with skimmate? The decaying organics should release nutrients. I doubt the culture would get very dense, but I'm thinking more about the possiblity that green algae has a hate on for dinos -- maybe some dinocidal bacteria from nannochloris will grow in the mix. There are seaweed-friendly TDA-making rosies that protect macro, and rosies tend to be dominant in the microbiome of phytoplankton, so there may be TDA-making rosies on phyto, too. Also, it crosses my mind that if the decomposition of algae favors flavobacters, perhaps dosing crashed phyto that's already full of flavos in addition to live culture would help flip the benthic bacteria population in tanks that are stuck with long-term dino problems. Increasing aeration to a crashed phyto culture and shaking to break up and suspend the clumps of dead phyto would probably be helpful to the flavos. That calls to mind an old trick organic gardeners use when they get an insect outbreak: they collect a bunch of the bugs, whomp the bejeezus out of them in a blender, strain the lumps out, and spray a solution of the resulting liquid onto the bugs in the garden. The idea is that some of the bugs are always sick, and the pathogenic bacteria or viruses or fungi are in the bug goo and will infect other bugs if given the chance. By collecting some dinos in a jar, maybe we can culture the bacteria that grow as they die off. Quote:
No joke. That's one of the reasons why ID'ing your dinos is a big deal, folks -- know what kind of bear you've got on your hands before you decide whether or not to poke it. And be aware that I'm just thinking out loud. I expect a safer approach would be to take a water sample, or a sample of sand, or a sample of skimmate, give it a good long shake, pass the water through a 10uM filter sock, and see if you can culture bacteria from the filtered water with a source of cellulose. Those bacteria could then be tested on a jar of dinos and a sample of macro. They may not be effective by themselves, but a combination of TDA-making rosies and cellulose-eating bacteria that get along with each other might be what we're looking for (hence the suggestion to try culturing the latter from skimmate or live sand). Quote:
Incidentally, it appears that corals farm pods. In the wild, clumps of decaying coral mucus and detritus are pod nurseries, which explains why pods haven't evolved to avoid mucus and stop getting eaten by corals. Farming looks like it might be a common adaptation to oligotrophy: damsels do it, dinos do it, corals do it... Though I guess corals are actually ranchers, not farmers. Increasing overall bacterial biodiversity within the system would presumably help, as well, as this would widen the selection of bacteria available in the water column for corals to recruit. I mentioned that silica sand and carbonate sand host different bacterial communities, so that's a potential route to foster biodiversity, but one thing I didn't bring up is that seasonal water temperature changes shift bacteria communities, and this may help maintain bacterial biodiversity not just in coral mucus, but on a reef-wide level. In fact, I would guess that the bacteria (among other things) on reefs are adapted to seasonal shifts on the basis of light and its effect on primary production, water temperature and its effect on dissolved O2 saturation levels, and other variables, and the kind of stability we maintain is actually a highly unnatural state. LED rigs have given us a lot more control over lighting than we used to have, but seasonal temperature changes aren't something we model in our tanks. Might be worth thinking about, as it would be easy for many of us to let the water temperature drop a bit during the winter, and we know from the literature that unusually high water temperatures favor an unhealthy dominance by potentially pathogenic vibrio in coral mucus -- is the reverse true, as well? Do winter water temperatures put pathogens at a competitive disadvantage and give a leg up to coral-friendly bacteria? Quote:
But it's probably Proteobacteria associated with other primary producers that outcompete the dino-friendly bacteria for labile DOC in healthy systems. Nutrient-limited algae dump excess photosynthate into the water column when the lights are on, so I'd expect the bacterioplankton population in a closed, recirculating, oligotrophic system to be dominated by algae-friendly bacteria. That would explain the low level DDAM effects reported on Santa Monica's site a few years back and why many hobbyists have difficulty growing coralline and keeping it healthy. Carbon dosers who want to play around with trying to feed coral-friendly bacteria may be interested in this paper on the mucus of the corals Galaxea fascicularis, Pavona cactus, and Turbinaria reniformis, which looked for the sugars fucose, galactose, glucose, mannose, and xylose as well as glucosamine and galactosamine... Mucus composition and bacterial communities associated with the tissue and skeleton of three scleractinian corals maintained under culture conditions https://www.researchgate.net/profile...4f01000000.pdf But be aware that this could kill your corals. As noted on page 101, corals become hypoxic at night when their zoox aren't photosynthesizing. The high flow levels we maintain are in part to disrupt the boundary layer around our corals and mitigate this problem, but bacterial respiration in the coral microbiome (not just the mucus, but also bacteria living within and all around the polyps) becomes an issue at night when some of the bacteria run low on oxygen and have to start reducing sulfur to get by. As noted, corals may make DMSP for the same reason dinos do: to get rid of excess sulfide before it kills them. Well -- that, and luring pods to their doom. Dosing the sugars found in coral mucus is very likely to stimulate bacterial growth in the mucus. This could literally smother coral polyps at night, and even if dosing was limited to "daytime", it could still prompt runaway bacteria growth that could upset the natural order of things maintained by the corals' obligate bacterial symbiotes and become pathogenic. It's important to recognize that just because we're talking about "coral-friendly bacteria", one cannot blithely assume that if some is good, more must be better. But that said, maybe there's a sweet spot where the polyps are fat and happy and the coralline grows like gangbusters. FWIW, I'd suggest staying away from dosing glucose and xylose. Those sugars are too common, and too many bacteria can eat them. Quote:
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Note that skimming leaves behind the sort of high molecular weight recalcitrant DOC derived from high-protein fish poo that was found to stimulate the growth of planktonic cytophaga in the wild, so UV may be lysing a reservoir of bacterioplankton that helps maintain ostreopsis blooms in skimmed systems. Just a thought. -- Quote:
Easier said than done, I know. Quote:
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But since you brought up vodka and vinegar, recall that I pointed to the genus flavobacterium, which apparently specialize in the decomposition of phyto blooms and breaking down high molecular weight organics from primary producers, as a possible agent for rebalancing the benthic bacteria population away from dino-friendly Bacteroidetes. When I described them on page 101, I noted this: Quote:
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Have you tried the Montireef Protocol with skimmate from your healthy system, jonwright? That is, dosing the dino-infested tank with skimmate from the healthy tank? -- Quote:
Black reefs: iron-induced phase shifts on coral reefs https://www.researchgate.net/profile...6444000000.pdf It's a shot in the dark, but could be there's an iron-driven phase shift from dinos back to the ancient cyano/green algae duopoly, as both cyano and greens have high quotas for iron. If you're looking for an explanation for the various "I did nothing, and my dinos went away" posts in this and other threads, this was on page 101: Quote:
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In fact, I suspect that in a sense, all roads lead to the dirty method. That is, mixotrophy is an adaptation to oligotrophy, so we need a bit of eutrophy to beat mixotrophic dinos. Even the clean method adds a little "dirt" to seal the deal: phyto and pods. Quote:
And, as noted, pods are an important source of nitrogen for corals. So, yes, we want pods -- aside from being coral chow, the scientific literature gives us reason to believe they're the heaviest predators on ostis (they're certainly the biggest predator threat for pelagic mixotrophic dinoflagellates, suggesting that they prey on benthic species during the nightly float), so it looks like blowing up the pod population is an important part of the dirty method's success. Or rather, its potential for success. Quote:
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If there's a better word I don't know about, somebody please LMK. Best to change it now, as I don't want to be responsible for generating another clash between the definitions scientists and hobbyists have for a word. "Substrate" really drives me crazy... Quote:
Dinos suck at absorbing nitrogen directly from the water column, but that's not to say they can't do it if there's enough around. This probably also applies in the case of joti26's tank. And have you looked at dosing iron? As noted above, iron-driven phase shifts have been observed on wild reefs from coral dominance to algae/cyano dominance. Green algae evolved in euxinic waters and thus has a high iron quota. Cyano likes iron, too, which could break either way here. There's anecdotal evidence in this thread and elsewhere both for and against adding iron -- high iron levels have been implicated by some as a factor in dino outbreaks. But while iron has been dosed along with N, P, Si, and other stuff, I'm not aware of anyone specifically experimenting with iron dosing, either by itself or in combination with other methods, with the exception of jason2459... Quote:
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01/21/2016, 09:25 PM | #2767 | |||||||
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Nutrients are where this all started. I first contributed to this thread last year with the notion that benthic dinos survive in the oligotrophic reef environment by farming heterotrophic bacteria and cyano for food rather than absorbing nutrients out of the water column... Quote:
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Viruses of reef-building scleractinian corals https://www.researchgate.net/profile...0c82000000.pdf Quote:
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For the benefit of those who feel overwhelmed by too many choices, here are a few good ones to start with: Coral Reef Bacterial Communities - this appears to be Chapter 10 out of a textbook on bacteria published in 2013 - download your copy now, before the publisher notices that we've noticed this PDF, freaks out, and demands the author pull it! https://www.researchgate.net/profile...6595000000.pdf The Role of Microorganisms in Coral Health, Disease, and Evolution - more or less The Coral Probiotic Hypothesis version 2.0 - and read that, too - no accident it was the first paper I quoted from, and thus the first listed in the bibliography https://www.researchgate.net/profile...1872000000.pdf Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs - a review article from 2012 - it's recent, it's relatively accessible to the non-scientist, it's got Forest Rohwer as a co-author - what more could you ask for? https://www.researchgate.net/profile...b61f000000.pdf Viruses of reef-building scleractinian corals - repeating for emphasis: viruses are important https://www.researchgate.net/profile...0c82000000.pdf The seaweed holobiont: understanding seaweed–bacteria interactions - this paper isn't on any of the lists on page 101, but it's a good review, and it's recent - and macro is important, too https://www.researchgate.net/profile...948b000000.pdf Master recyclers: features and functions of bacteria associated with phytoplankton blooms - bacterial CUCs in the wild https://www.researchgate.net/profile...6cbf760d7d.pdf Like I said: there's a lot of reading involved. |
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01/22/2016, 01:27 AM | #2768 |
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In my research on the web I've come a cross scientific papers stating the toxins to be a sought after material and dinoflagellates notoriously difficult to grow in bulk so there are people out there trying to do the opposite of us and they seem to be failing as well.
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01/22/2016, 01:32 AM | #2769 | |
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I was thinking Prorocentrum sp., but you could be right. I had only couple of mintues this morning to look into it. Last edited by DNA; 01/22/2016 at 01:39 AM. |
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01/22/2016, 05:32 AM | #2770 |
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34Cygni - are you not being abstemious for the month of January like many of my friends...?!
"I suspect DNA was venting a little by being facetious (...fun linguistic fact: "facetious" is the only word in the English language containing all five vowels in alphabetical order -- and "facetiously" gets you the sometimes Y)" |
01/22/2016, 08:43 AM | #2771 | |
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01/22/2016, 10:34 AM | #2772 |
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Is this Prorocentrum as well?
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01/22/2016, 10:37 AM | #2773 |
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or this
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01/22/2016, 11:03 AM | #2774 | |
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Could you please post a full tank size picture of your tank. I'd like to see what kind of tank it takes to get them going or to kill them. I take it you introduced them into a healthy tank and will post here whatever happens. |
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01/22/2016, 11:25 AM | #2775 | |
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