Been away from the hobby....live rock question?

[WOliver]

I have not been active in the hobby since 2010, and planning to jump back in.....question: Is live rock still imported, and can we still get boxes from an LFS or online? Seems when I have done a bit of surfing online, all I find is the man-made cast product.

Has the hobby and/or laws changes since I was away? Or am I just looking in the wrong place?

[lapin]

Originally Posted by WOliver

Is live rock still imported, and can we still get boxes from an LFS or online?

Not as it once was. You have to get it from the new "growers"

Originally Posted by WOliver

Has the hobby and/or laws changes since I was away?

Yes
Because of the collection of natural reef rock by people over the years the reefs have suffered. Many countries do not allow for collection of the rock anymore. Their are a few companies that purchased plots of land in the ocean. They put dry mined rock into the ocean. They take it out when it becomes live and sell it.

[mcgyvr]

Tampa Bay Saltwater..
Mic drop......

[WOliver]

So the days of hitch hikers are kinda gone....sad on a hobby level, but good, if not great on an environmental level. I will miss the days of getting a blue ringed octopus in a box of rock.

[Therinx]

Originally Posted by WOliver

So the days of hitch hikers are kinda gone....sad on a hobby level, but good, if not great on an environmental level. I will miss the days of getting a blue ringed octopus in a box of rock.

You'll still get hitchhikers, but from the region where the rock was "grown".

[manateemark]

This is mostly due to an import ban of livestock from Fiji, which even effects dried rock from there. Some other countries are still able to get stuff from Fiji, but not the US, according to what I've read. This is what has caused a lot of the issues in the hobby as Fiji had been the largest export for a long time. There are some people in Florida selling rock now that should work a substitute. Since I've never used any of these people I will refrain from mentioning any people in particular as I don't have experience with them.

[Misled]

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Tampa Bay Saltwater..
Mic drop......

yup

[HarlequinTusk]

Originally Posted by WOliver

I have not been active in the hobby since 2010, and planning to jump back in.....question: Is live rock still imported, and can we still get boxes from an LFS or online? Seems when I have done a bit of surfing online, all I find is the man-made cast product.

Has the hobby and/or laws changes since I was away? Or am I just looking in the wrong place?

I'm not a fan of the man-made rock products, but I am a fan of "dry live rock", specifically marcorocks sold by bulkreefsupply and others. It's real rock, but it's not taken directly from the ocean (although it was in the ocean thousands of years ago if I'm not mistaken). It's Key Largo rock, 100% free of organics, and therefore can be considered "pre-cured". You save on shipping costs as you're not paying to ship water. No chance of hitch hikers which I think most people (but not all) prefer. Obviously, you have to cycle the rock to build up bacteria. Some of the saving on not shipping water is lost if you buy one of the more expensive nitrifying bacteria products like Dr. Tims. Maybe a better name for it would be "potentially live rock".

[Green Chromis]

Originally Posted by HarlequinTusk

I'm not a fan of the man-made rock products, but I am a fan of "dry live rock", specifically marcorocks sold by bulkreefsupply and others. It's real rock, but it's not taken directly from the ocean (although it was in the ocean thousands of years ago if I'm not mistaken). It's Key Largo rock, 100% free of organics, and therefore can be considered "pre-cured". You save on shipping costs as you're not paying to ship water. No chance of hitch hikers which I think most people (but not all) prefer. Obviously, you have to cycle the rock to build up bacteria. Some of the saving on not shipping water is lost if you buy one of the more expensive nitrifying bacteria products like Dr. Tims. Maybe a better name for it would be "potentially live rock".

Tampa Bay and the Live Rock producers in the Keys do not use man made rock, any live rock from the ocean, weather natural or put their by the live rock farmers is far superior to any dry rock you put in your system.

[shred5]

Originally Posted by Green Chromis

Tampa Bay and the Live Rock producers in the Keys do not use man made rock, any live rock from the ocean, weather natural or put their by the live rock farmers is far superior to any dry rock you put in your system.

Actually Tampa bay was using man made rock.
They were using Walt Smith man made rock for part of their rock.

[HarlequinTusk]

Originally Posted by Green Chromis

Tampa Bay and the Live Rock producers in the Keys do not use man made rock, any live rock from the ocean, weather natural or put their by the live rock farmers is far superior to any dry rock you put in your system.

I never suggested that Tampa Bay and other LR producers were using man made rock, I actually assumed they were using real rock. I was referring to the original question where the OP was stating that he kept finding man made rock online.

I am curious to what you consider being "superior". Not being argumentative, I'm trying to better understand the pros and cons. I would think that properly cycled dry rock would have an identical ability to act as a biological filter. Here is my "likely incomplete" list of the "pros" for dry rock. (1) Lower cost, (2) lower shipping cost, (3) no hitchhikers that can cause chaos in your tank, (4) no need to cure. I won't attempt to do a "pros" list for real Live Rock as I'm sure I'd miss most of them.

[Green Chromis]

Originally Posted by HarlequinTusk

I never suggested that Tampa Bay and other LR producers were using man made rock, I actually assumed they were using real rock. I was referring to the original question where the OP was stating that he kept finding man made rock online.

I am curious to what you consider being "superior". Not being argumentative, I'm trying to better understand the pros and cons. I would think that properly cycled dry rock would have an identical ability to act as a biological filter. Here is my "likely incomplete" list of the "pros" for dry rock. (1) Lower cost, (2) lower shipping cost, (3) no hitchhikers that can cause chaos in your tank, (4) no need to cure. I won't attempt to do a "pros" list for real Live Rock as I'm sure I'd miss most of them.

The superior part of using live rock from the oceans either natural or introduced by man, is all the extra flora and fauna found on ocean born live rock. Their is a lot more to live rock then just the bacteria that is added to dead rock to make it a so called live rock. The longer the rock is in the ocean the deeper the bacteria and other organism penetrate into the rock, not just a skim coat of bacteria on the surface like most of the dry rock that is treated with products like Dr. Tim's, even though Dr. Tim's is a very good source of bacteria to help cycle a tank, it is not the same as having live rock from the ocean that has been seeded for many years.

[HarlequinTusk]

Originally Posted by Green Chromis

The longer the rock is in the ocean the deeper the bacteria and other organism penetrate into the rock, not just a skim coat of bacteria on the surface like most of the dry rock that is treated with products like Dr. Tim's, even though Dr. Tim's is a very good source of bacteria to help cycle a tank, it is not the same as having live rock from the ocean that has been seeded for many years.

I would think that "Dr Tim's cycled" dry rock would have plenty of bacteria for the first fish, and have no problem multiplying to keep up with additional fish additions (I never add more than one a month). Do you have any links that discuss the "skim coat" in more detail? When you buy MarinePure, there are no options to buy blocks that have been in the ocean for a few years. However, most give that product rave reviews as a biofilter.

I can't recall reading any suggestions that you need more dry rock than live rock. I would think that if dry rock was going to have difficulties because of a lack of penetrating bacteria, experts would be recommending twice as much cycled dry rock as live rock.

I'm definitely not trying to make a case that Live Rock from the ocean is overkill, I'm just trying to ensure that path that I have selected will work as a viable biological filter. For the record, if I lived near Tampa Bay Saltwater, I'd most likely use their rock and then hope that I could deal with the undesired hitchhikers.

My plan for my 220g (which should be ready to start cycling right after Christmas) is to add 200lbs of marcorocks, and add as much marinepure as I can fit in my sump. I'm not even buying live sand, I'm going to let Dr Tim's seed that as well.

[shred5]

Originally Posted by Green Chromis

The superior part of using live rock from the oceans either natural or introduced by man, is all the extra flora and fauna found on ocean born live rock. :

I agree with this. People are finding this out with all the dinoflagellate outbreaks with dry rock. Biodiversity matters and that is what dry rock is missing. Biodiversity can be added but it takes more time and patients. The rock is bare and anything bad that get introduced has nothing to compete with.

Also Dry rock is loaded with nutrients and takes much longer to cure.

Live rock is a thing of the past even though there is talk of rock coming from some new sources. It has not happened yet and if it does i am sure it will be very pricey.

Aquacultured rock is a good alternative but it is heavier than most other rock and shapes sometimes are not as desirable.

I personally use a combo of rock. I have live rock vats with aquacultured rock and dry rock. I do this for several months. This allows some of the organism to colonize the dry rock and allows for any nutrients to dissipate.

I do not worry about pest because I have months to remove any that pop up since basically all is quarantined. Most are easy to trap like craps or mantis.

[HarlequinTusk]

Originally Posted by shred5

I agree with this. People are finding this out with all the dinoflagellate outbreaks with dry rock. Biodiversity matters and that is what dry rock is missing. Biodiversity can be added but it takes more time and patients. The rock is bare and anything bad that get introduced has nothing to compete with.

Also Dry rock is loaded with nutrients and takes much longer to cure.

I definitely need to look into dinoflagellate outbreaks as I have no idea what that is.

When you say dry rock is loaded with nutrients....are you sure you're referring to products like marcorocks? I would agree that dried out "formerly live" rock is loaded with nutrients, but rock that hasn't been in the ocean in thousands of years shouldn't have any measurable nutrients on them.

[shred5]

Originally Posted by HarlequinTusk

I definitely need to look into dinoflagellate outbreaks as I have no idea what that is.

When you say dry rock is loaded with nutrients....are you sure you're referring to products like marcorocks? I would agree that dried out "formerly live" rock is loaded with nutrients, but rock that hasn't been in the ocean in thousands of years shouldn't have any measurable nutrients on them.

Yea Marco rock has nutrients in it but not as bad as like pukani. It is mined rock plus there can be plenty of dead matter in it. Remember rock is made of calcium carbonate and calcium carbonate bind phosphates.

Look it up on how to cure it, I just did some myself. Water was really high in nitrates and phosphates after a few days. I usually bleach the rock first and rinse well. Some will then use a acid or vinegar bath. I then put it in saltwater and do water changes based on nutrient levels. I may change 100 percent. Some just freshwater which works too but I also start adding bacteria right away.

[HarlequinTusk]

Originally Posted by shred5

Yea Marco rock has nutrients in it but not as bad as like pukani. It is mined rock plus there can be plenty of dead matter in it. Remember rock is made of calcium carbonate and calcium carbonate bind phosphates.

Look it up on how to cure it, I just did some myself. Water was really high in nitrates and phosphates after a few days. I usually bleach the rock first and rinse well. Some will then use a acid or vinegar bath. I then put it in saltwater and do water changes based on nutrient levels. I may change 100 percent. Some just freshwater which works too but I also start adding bacteria right away.

OK thx