Dinoflagellates.

[mikeatjac]

A week later and still no sign of Dinos. I did add a large UV set up.

[nvladik]

Originally Posted by taricha

One like this http://www.amscope.com/student-micro...e-20x-40x.html
...is super helpful when looking for something through large amounts of material like several ml of water/substrate. Binocular makes it very 3d. Brain can get much more info out of perspective images with both eyes. I've also ripped it off the base and put it up to the tank glass to watch benthic fauna behavior in the tank as opposed to on a slide.
For most everything else, IDing, cell counts, pictures/video (through phone) something very much like this is my go to. If I only had access to one, this would be it. http://www.amscope.com/student-micro...icroscope.html

Thanks for the advice. What about something like this: http://www.amscope.com/student-micro...sb-camera.html

I completely don't mind it going through a computer, plus bigger screen, easy to see, etc.

[taricha]

Originally Posted by nvladik

Thanks for the advice. What about something like this: http://www.amscope.com/student-micro...sb-camera.html

I completely don't mind it going through a computer, plus bigger screen, easy to see, etc.

The ability to illuminate from above is also very useful. Good choice. I don't mind a digital camera attachment on a scope, just as long as they aren't charging a bunch extra (it looks like they aren't) for an imaging device when smartphone cameras are at least as good and usually better.
Also quality used microscopes likely float around places like ebay in abundance - if someone wanted to save a few more bucks.

Originally Posted by mikeatjac

A week later and still no sign of Dinos. I did add a large UV set up.

Do you know what kind you had? You said you removed sand. I'm guessing yours were on sand only? Brown dusting on sand or snotty stringy? got pics? Success stories and methods are awesome, but more valuable the more we know about the infestation.

[mikeatjac]

Originally Posted by taricha

The ability to illuminate from above is also very useful. Good choice. I don't mind a digital camera attachment on a scope, just as long as they aren't charging a bunch extra (it looks like they aren't) for an imaging device when smartphone cameras are at least as good and usually better.
Also quality used microscopes likely float around places like ebay in abundance - if someone wanted to save a few more bucks.



Do you know what kind you had? You said you removed sand. I'm guessing yours were on sand only? Brown dusting on sand or snotty stringy? got pics? Success stories and methods are awesome, but more valuable the more we know about the infestation.

It was everywhere. I had some LR that was just plain Slimmy. Sorry I don't have pictures, never though of that. Don't know what kind I had.

[nvladik]

Originally Posted by taricha

The ability to illuminate from above is also very useful. Good choice. I don't mind a digital camera attachment on a scope, just as long as they aren't charging a bunch extra (it looks like they aren't) for an imaging device when smartphone cameras are at least as good and usually better.
Also quality used microscopes likely float around places like ebay in abundance - if someone wanted to save a few more bucks.

Curious, how do you take pictures with your phone? Right over the eye-piece?

Another small update on my tank. Diatoms and hair algae are back. Hope that's good news!!!

[joti26]

Originally Posted by nvladik

Thanks for the advice. What about something like this: http://www.amscope.com/student-micro...sb-camera.html

I completely don't mind it going through a computer, plus bigger screen, easy to see, etc.

Yeah that's the one I have brilliant and much easier on the eyes than squinting through the eyepiece, reckon biologists must end up with one squinty eye! Plus is that you can do all sorts with it, photo's videos and time lapse. Totally hooked on mine!

[joti26]

Originally Posted by nvladik

Curious, how do you take pictures with your phone? Right over the eye-piece?

Another small update on my tank. Diatoms and hair algae are back. Hope that's good news!!!

Yes same here, I thought the dino's were back with avengence as brown patches, air bubbles and even brown stringy bit's. However having taken samples it's not dino's at all but algae, diatoms and these tiny golden round things I have yet to identify. I am still finding one or two dino's but maybe one dino in five or six samples from everything sucked up from the rocks. The dino smell has been gone for around 15 days now as has any sign of dino's on any corals. I am also getting far less of the greyish debris, just syphoned the rocks this evening into the eden 501 and having not cleaned it for four days amazed at how little was in there. Normally syphoning every day with a mass of the grey debris in the cleaner tank. So like you remaining hopeful. Still daren't do a water change mind you.

[karimwassef]

I think a tank without some algae running somewhere (ATS, overflow, etc...) is not really healthy. I think the best path is to feed and evolve from diatoms to green hair to coralline... not to remove nutrients and devolve into dino death...

[taricha]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

I think a tank without some algae running somewhere (ATS, overflow, etc...) is not really healthy. I think the best path is to feed and evolve from diatoms to green hair to coralline... not to remove nutrients and devolve into dino death...

Agree. It certainly seems like systems without a broad base of some form of primary producers are an unstable and delicate equilibrium.

Originally Posted by karimwassef

I still think that nitrogen fixation was a key to this.. at least in my tank.

I meant to flag this earlier. Interested to hear what you observed that points this way.

One thing I've seen that supports this. When my tank was low N, the dinos always hugged cyano (maybe for their N fix). In the weeks I've been running high N (10-20+ppm) dinos aren't tied to cyano, I have spots with traces of cyano and dino separately.

If I were experimenting in this area, I'd try to go with available P, zero N and a low dose of H202 or chemiclean just enough to kill off cyano. Maybe been tried but I haven't seen if it had.

[Billybatz9]

I am out! I decided to tear my tank down. Did not want to deal with this anymore. 6 months of headaches and absolute eye sores from staring at brown crap all over my tank. No MORE! My biocube was torn down 4 days ago. I bought myself a nice nuvo fusion 30 L and I have my rocks basking in the sun right now (Burn you dino bastards). Then in 2 days, they will burn some more in RO dip for another 4 days. Then dry out again for another few days in the sun. Then going back in my new tank. If I get dinos again after doing all this, then peace out reef people!

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by Billybatz9

I am out! I decided to tear my tank down. Did not want to deal with this anymore. 6 months of headaches and absolute eye sores from staring at brown crap all over my tank. No MORE! My biocube was torn down 4 days ago. I bought myself a nice nuvo fusion 30 L and I have my rocks basking in the sun right now (Burn you dino bastards). Then in 2 days, they will burn some more in RO dip for another 4 days. Then dry out again for another few days in the sun. Then going back in my new tank. If I get dinos again after doing all this, then peace out reef people!

Personally, I would acid bath and then cured in saltwater and checked for PO4 leaching and treated with lanthanum chloride if so.

[robertifly]

Good news to report on my war with Dino, going over 10 days with no apparent infestation! Things I don't think had much affect are 1. Dino X, 2. H202 dosing separately or together, 3. Lights blackout alone or combined with dosing Dino X or H202. What has seemed to make a real difference is blackout 4 days combined with a strong UV, with adding phytoplankton, more clean-up crew, pods and a ball of cheato in DT. The tank looks good, yesterday I saw a tiny, new (to me) thorny oyster growing on a rock where 3 weeks ago I couldn't even see the rock for the dinos.

[karimwassef]

Originally Posted by Billybatz9

I am out! I decided to tear my tank down. Did not want to deal with this anymore. 6 months of headaches and absolute eye sores from staring at brown crap all over my tank. No MORE! My biocube was torn down 4 days ago. I bought myself a nice nuvo fusion 30 L and I have my rocks basking in the sun right now (Burn you dino bastards). Then in 2 days, they will burn some more in RO dip for another 4 days. Then dry out again for another few days in the sun. Then going back in my new tank. If I get dinos again after doing all this, then peace out reef people!

what did you try?

[karimwassef]

Originally Posted by robertifly

Good news to report on my war with Dino, going over 10 days with no apparent infestation! Things I don't think had much affect are 1. Dino X, 2. H202 dosing separately or together, 3. Lights blackout alone or combined with dosing Dino X or H202. What has seemed to make a real difference is blackout 4 days combined with a strong UV, with adding phytoplankton, more clean-up crew, pods and a ball of cheato in DT. The tank looks good, yesterday I saw a tiny, new (to me) thorny oyster growing on a rock where 3 weeks ago I couldn't even see the rock for the dinos.

awesome. got pics?

[Billybatz9]

Originally Posted by jason2459

Personally, I would acid bath and then cured in saltwater and checked for PO4 leaching and treated with lanthanum chloride if so.

That seems like a lot of work. I've never acid bath anything in my life. What if I go buy like 4 bottles of h202 and dose all four bottle in a bucket of ro along with my rocks? They are practically dry by now. Rocks are pure white (coraline is dried and dead). Do you really think dinos can still be alive?

[robertifly]

I'll try to get pictures up tonight.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by Billybatz9

That seems like a lot of work. I've never acid bath anything in my life. What if I go buy like 4 bottles of h202 and dose all four bottle in a bucket of ro along with my rocks? They are practically dry by now. Rocks are pure white (coraline is dried and dead). Do you really think dinos can still be alive?

Acid bath could be something strong and dangerous like muratic acid and assured to strip off the top layer of everything including your hands if you're not careful.

Or as mild as just using Vinegar. I'd go the vinegar route personally for this situation and let it soak in the acid bath longer as it's a weaker acid.

[bertoni]

Vinegar might work if given long enough and enough is added. I agree that muriatic acid requires careful handling, and work with it should be done outdoors because the fumes are toxic.

Hydrogen peroxide could remove some organics if dosed in a strong form, but that's no safer than muriatic acid. It won't remove copper or phosphate from the rock, not at any reasonable rate.

[Billybatz9]

I am going to put all my rocks (30 lbs) in a 5 gallon bucket. How much vinegar would I need? They sell it by the gallon I believe. How long should the dip be also?

And quick question. Why would I need to acid bath the rocks if they are dried out? Is it really possible that some dinos can survive on rocks that have been dry for a week?

[taricha]

Not to critique an awesome public aquarium facility. The GA aquarium is amazing. Every tank is breathtaking.
Just went there on a school field trip.
Whatcha think? Dinos or no. The color is pure rust brown.

It's in the garden eel display, the first tank you see in the tropical diver section.
One of my students, who was with another group asked their tour guide. "Looks like y'all have a dinoflagellate infestation on the sand"
Their group guide (probably a volunteer) answered "no, the brown on the sand is for decoration." :-)


They also have the largest, most awesome public coral display tank I've ever seen. They say its taken 5 years to get to the current 25% coral coverage over the artificial wall.

[Billybatz9]

Anyone ever try freezing rocks? Seriously. Instead of acid bath and all that crap, why not freeze the rocks in a big freezer. No way dinos survive being in a freezer.Then wash them in plain RO water for a few days to get rid of the dead matter.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by Billybatz9

Anyone ever try freezing rocks? Seriously. Instead of acid bath and all that crap, why not freeze the rocks in a big freezer. No way dinos survive being in a freezer.Then wash them in plain RO water for a few days to get rid of the dead matter.

Well, if there's something leaching out of the rocks that's at the surface level that is helping to promote the dino's or other oganisims the dino's are feeding on the acid bath would remove it preventing a future outbreak. Freezing would not. And do we know freezing in a typical freezer would get rid of them?

[karimwassef]

Spores or cysts can survive through most conditions like freezing, fresh water, being completely dry, desiccation, or even baking. I don't know if boiling works either. It depends on the structure of the protective shell and the water content inside.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...elled-organis/

It's like a hard shell with a very simple seed hidden away in a molecular form deep inside. It can probably go into space and survive unless it gets hit by high energy particles to destroy the nucleus. Normal UV (like sunlight) won't destroy it either. Higher UV might, but the shell may still provide sufficient protection.

Here's cyano surviving in space on the ISS

http://phys.org/news/2010-08-microbe...ear-space.html

and even higher forms

http://morgana249.blogspot.com/2014/...travel-in.html

Acid will dissolve the tissue directly, so it literally removes the material it is made from.

Vinegar and H2O2 may not be strong enough though?

[jason2459]

Yeah, I agree the vinegar may not be enough but he was not wanting to go the muriatic acid route which I don't blame him. Using vinegar I would let it soak for at least several days.

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[karimwassef]

new word for me - cryptobiosis

Google it.