Alk supp. flaking when putting in tank

PygmyAngel · 02/10/2006, 10:48 AM

I thought I read somewhere that if the alk supplement flakes when you put in the tank, that screws everything up.....is this correct?

I am using the Kent Tech A and B 2-part additives for my 75g. I am putting the alk treatment in the morning before lights on, and the calc treatment in the afternoon. I also drip kalk.

My water tests showed that my alk was a little low around 2.5ish, and my calc on the border of 380-390. I can't quite remember, as my log book is at home with the #s and I am at work. Sorry I don't have everything here. My pH was fine at 8.3ish.

And I use the caps on the supplement bottles to measure out the amounts for my tank. I pour the supp.'s right in the high flow of my SEIO 1100 so it will dissipate quickly...but I am still getting the alk. flaking out.

Doesn't this screw it all up, the params? I remember reading an alk and calc article about that, but I couldn't find the right one, after trying to look thru Randy's articles, I didn't find it. And I can't sit and read all of them here at work, so I thought I'd ask to be sure.

So, once the alk has flaked out in the aquarium, now what? I need to test alk, calc, and pH and/or do a large water change?

Can't remember where to go from here.

Kim

Randy Holmes-Farley · 02/10/2006, 11:00 AM

Do you get big chunks that form and settle to the bottom, or a cloudiness like this that dissolves as it mixes in (which is normal):

What is that Precipitate in My Reef Aquarium?
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.htm

PygmyAngel · 02/10/2006, 11:08 AM

I get the normal cloudiness right when I pour it in. I know that is normal, but right after it is cloudy as it goes in, it turns into tiny little flakes like snow. I thought I read somewhere that that means I have added too much and it is precipitating out either the alk or the calc or something and at that point has thrown off the params instead of accomplishing what I am trying to do in the first place...

I will read your link in the above response while you are reading this.....

Randy Holmes-Farley · 02/10/2006, 11:11 AM

I would try adding it to a high flow area to reduce the potential for precipitation of calcium carbonate, which would not seem an issue for your circumstance if your kits are accurate (being boosted by high pH, high alkalinity, and high calcium, and low magnesium).

PygmyAngel · 02/10/2006, 11:16 AM

Well, as I stated in the first post,
"I pour the supp.'s right in the high flow of my SEIO 1100 so it will dissipate quickly...but I am still getting the alk. flaking out."

What do you mean by "(being boosted by high pH, high alkalinity, and high calcium, and low magnesium)".

Randy Holmes-Farley · 02/10/2006, 11:19 AM

Can you explain exactly what happens better. The cloudiness never disappears? If added to a high flow area, where is the flaking happening? How soon after adding the alk part? Is the alk part totally clear before being added?

The likelihood of precipitating calcium carbonate anywhere in the system is increased by high pH, high alkalinity, and high calcium, and low magnesium.

PygmyAngel · 02/10/2006, 11:27 AM

Okay, I pour the alk liquid into the bottle cap, then I pour the cap full slowly over tank directly into the high flow of the SEIO 1100 powerhead.

As the liquid goes in, it turns instantly cloudy (as it supposed to, as always), then most of the liquid is dissipated into the water column by the flow of the powerhead, but not all of it, I guess, as it starts then to turn into little tiny white flakes.

Don't know how better to explain it.

So, even though I am attempting to do everything the right way at the right time, you think maybe my magnesium is probaby too low, causing the precip or something?

I use Instant Ocean also.

I don't have a magnesium test. Should I get one, and see if that is an issue, and if so, should I dose magnesium?

K

Randy Holmes-Farley · 02/10/2006, 02:46 PM

So you get a pile of flakes on the tank bottom?

Some folks do report such issues, and I'm not exactly sure what causes it.

Here are some suggestions:

1. Dilute it with some fresh water before addition
2. Switch to a lower pH two part system (like my DIY recipe 2)
3. Check that the magnesium level in the aquarium is not too low
4. double check somehow that your other kits are accurate.

PygmyAngel · 02/14/2006, 12:57 AM

No, I do NOT get a pile of flakes on the tank bottom.

The flakes are floating in the water column. It's like once I pour the liquid in, it becomes milky as you know, then the milky stuff turns into a bunch of snow right away. It doesn't disappear clear, it becomes snow all in the water. Tiny snowflakes all in the water, not on the bottom, not chunks of stuff, just turns into flakes.

Well, I guess if this is unfamiliar to you, it's not something you are used to dealing with, so I have to do my own checking anyway.

Don't know why you would never have encountered it. Oh well.

I already have 2 different calcium kits that I used, and they tested the same. I don't have a magnesium test kit. Will have to get one.

I just thought for sure you would know what this means, with all the different chemistry knowledge you have, you might understand what is happening.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 02/14/2006, 07:54 AM

Well, if you dose it from initially clear solutions, and it actually contains what a standard two part additive contains (rather than being bad batches somehow), the flakes can only be calcium carbonate. They won't hurt anything, but they do waste calcium and alkalinity.

Let us know if you try any of the suggestions above and they seem to help.

PygmyAngel · 02/14/2006, 09:14 AM

Ok. I thought they somehow threw things even more out of whack though, and were then even harder to correct, based on the calc and alk articles.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 02/14/2006, 09:35 AM

No, it is just wasted supplement.

02/10/2006, 10:48 AM	#1
PygmyAngel Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Seabrook, TX Posts: 233	Alk supp. flaking when putting in tank I thought I read somewhere that if the alk supplement flakes when you put in the tank, that screws everything up.....is this correct? I am using the Kent Tech A and B 2-part additives for my 75g. I am putting the alk treatment in the morning before lights on, and the calc treatment in the afternoon. I also drip kalk. My water tests showed that my alk was a little low around 2.5ish, and my calc on the border of 380-390. I can't quite remember, as my log book is at home with the #s and I am at work. Sorry I don't have everything here. My pH was fine at 8.3ish. And I use the caps on the supplement bottles to measure out the amounts for my tank. I pour the supp.'s right in the high flow of my SEIO 1100 so it will dissipate quickly...but I am still getting the alk. flaking out. Doesn't this screw it all up, the params? I remember reading an alk and calc article about that, but I couldn't find the right one, after trying to look thru Randy's articles, I didn't find it. And I can't sit and read all of them here at work, so I thought I'd ask to be sure. So, once the alk has flaked out in the aquarium, now what? I need to test alk, calc, and pH and/or do a large water change? Can't remember where to go from here. Kim __________________ "We conserve only what we love; we love only what we understand; we understand only what we have been taught." - B. Dioum Current Tank Info: 75g: LS/LR, Prizm Skimmer, hang on Emp filter. No ref/no sump. 4-VHO/1-MH. 20g Reef: hang on Emp, skimmer, pc lights.

02/10/2006, 11:00 AM	#2
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Do you get big chunks that form and settle to the bottom, or a cloudiness like this that dissolves as it mixes in (which is normal): What is that Precipitate in My Reef Aquarium? http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.htm __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

02/10/2006, 11:08 AM	#3
PygmyAngel Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Seabrook, TX Posts: 233	I get the normal cloudiness right when I pour it in. I know that is normal, but right after it is cloudy as it goes in, it turns into tiny little flakes like snow. I thought I read somewhere that that means I have added too much and it is precipitating out either the alk or the calc or something and at that point has thrown off the params instead of accomplishing what I am trying to do in the first place... I will read your link in the above response while you are reading this..... __________________ "We conserve only what we love; we love only what we understand; we understand only what we have been taught." - B. Dioum Current Tank Info: 75g: LS/LR, Prizm Skimmer, hang on Emp filter. No ref/no sump. 4-VHO/1-MH. 20g Reef: hang on Emp, skimmer, pc lights.

02/10/2006, 11:11 AM	#4
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	I would try adding it to a high flow area to reduce the potential for precipitation of calcium carbonate, which would not seem an issue for your circumstance if your kits are accurate (being boosted by high pH, high alkalinity, and high calcium, and low magnesium). __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

02/10/2006, 11:16 AM	#5
PygmyAngel Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Seabrook, TX Posts: 233	Well, as I stated in the first post, "I pour the supp.'s right in the high flow of my SEIO 1100 so it will dissipate quickly...but I am still getting the alk. flaking out." What do you mean by "(being boosted by high pH, high alkalinity, and high calcium, and low magnesium)". __________________ "We conserve only what we love; we love only what we understand; we understand only what we have been taught." - B. Dioum Current Tank Info: 75g: LS/LR, Prizm Skimmer, hang on Emp filter. No ref/no sump. 4-VHO/1-MH. 20g Reef: hang on Emp, skimmer, pc lights.

02/10/2006, 11:19 AM	#6
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Can you explain exactly what happens better. The cloudiness never disappears? If added to a high flow area, where is the flaking happening? How soon after adding the alk part? Is the alk part totally clear before being added? The likelihood of precipitating calcium carbonate anywhere in the system is increased by high pH, high alkalinity, and high calcium, and low magnesium. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

02/10/2006, 11:27 AM	#7
PygmyAngel Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Seabrook, TX Posts: 233	Okay, I pour the alk liquid into the bottle cap, then I pour the cap full slowly over tank directly into the high flow of the SEIO 1100 powerhead. As the liquid goes in, it turns instantly cloudy (as it supposed to, as always), then most of the liquid is dissipated into the water column by the flow of the powerhead, but not all of it, I guess, as it starts then to turn into little tiny white flakes. Don't know how better to explain it. So, even though I am attempting to do everything the right way at the right time, you think maybe my magnesium is probaby too low, causing the precip or something? I use Instant Ocean also. I don't have a magnesium test. Should I get one, and see if that is an issue, and if so, should I dose magnesium? K __________________ "We conserve only what we love; we love only what we understand; we understand only what we have been taught." - B. Dioum Current Tank Info: 75g: LS/LR, Prizm Skimmer, hang on Emp filter. No ref/no sump. 4-VHO/1-MH. 20g Reef: hang on Emp, skimmer, pc lights.

02/10/2006, 02:46 PM	#8
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	So you get a pile of flakes on the tank bottom? Some folks do report such issues, and I'm not exactly sure what causes it. Here are some suggestions: 1. Dilute it with some fresh water before addition 2. Switch to a lower pH two part system (like my DIY recipe 2) 3. Check that the magnesium level in the aquarium is not too low 4. double check somehow that your other kits are accurate. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

02/14/2006, 12:57 AM	#9
PygmyAngel Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Seabrook, TX Posts: 233	No, I do NOT get a pile of flakes on the tank bottom. The flakes are floating in the water column. It's like once I pour the liquid in, it becomes milky as you know, then the milky stuff turns into a bunch of snow right away. It doesn't disappear clear, it becomes snow all in the water. Tiny snowflakes all in the water, not on the bottom, not chunks of stuff, just turns into flakes. Well, I guess if this is unfamiliar to you, it's not something you are used to dealing with, so I have to do my own checking anyway. Don't know why you would never have encountered it. Oh well. I already have 2 different calcium kits that I used, and they tested the same. I don't have a magnesium test kit. Will have to get one. I just thought for sure you would know what this means, with all the different chemistry knowledge you have, you might understand what is happening. __________________ "We conserve only what we love; we love only what we understand; we understand only what we have been taught." - B. Dioum Current Tank Info: 75g: LS/LR, Prizm Skimmer, hang on Emp filter. No ref/no sump. 4-VHO/1-MH. 20g Reef: hang on Emp, skimmer, pc lights.

02/14/2006, 07:54 AM	#10
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Well, if you dose it from initially clear solutions, and it actually contains what a standard two part additive contains (rather than being bad batches somehow), the flakes can only be calcium carbonate. They won't hurt anything, but they do waste calcium and alkalinity. Let us know if you try any of the suggestions above and they seem to help. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

02/14/2006, 09:14 AM	#11
PygmyAngel Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Seabrook, TX Posts: 233	Ok. I thought they somehow threw things even more out of whack though, and were then even harder to correct, based on the calc and alk articles. __________________ "We conserve only what we love; we love only what we understand; we understand only what we have been taught." - B. Dioum Current Tank Info: 75g: LS/LR, Prizm Skimmer, hang on Emp filter. No ref/no sump. 4-VHO/1-MH. 20g Reef: hang on Emp, skimmer, pc lights.

02/14/2006, 09:35 AM	#12
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	No, it is just wasted supplement. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef