|
05/12/2015, 01:38 AM | #26 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: mumbai, india
Posts: 1,101
|
My plan was to go for double the recomended size on skimmer, AIO biopellets, phosguard/rowaphos, carbon and purigen for filteration. And for trace dosing just seachem reef plus... no waterchanges... just maybe while selling corals or acclimating new fish (10% monthly or once in 2mnths)
__________________
TRY BUYING CAPTIVE BRED ANIMALS/FISHES/INVERTS... DONT BUY A DOG, ADOPT THEM..... SAVE NATURE..... JUNGLES AND OCEANS RULE..... |
05/14/2015, 04:12 PM | #27 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Kharkiv - Ukraine
Posts: 77
|
I want to share my experience - maybe it will be interesting.
Water changes do not make more than 2 years - SPS, LPS, anemone, soft corals, zoos ..... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2317234 |
05/22/2015, 05:23 AM | #28 |
Registered Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Artesia, NM
Posts: 649
|
Read PualB threads
__________________
-Robert- 01101000 01100101 01101100 01101100 01101111 00100000 01110111 01101111 01110010 01101100 01100100 |
05/22/2015, 01:04 PM | #29 | |
Registered Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Calabasas, CA
Posts: 1,501
|
Quote:
The water softener idea sounds great for reducing RO wastewater, but in my very limited understanding of how brine-regenerated softeners work, don't they also generate quite a bit of waste water? Some Cities in Southern California have ordinances that prohibit their use. That leads me to the question I have for you, do "salt free" water softeners provide the same benefit to reducing the load on the RO and allowing them to be run at low waste-to-reject ratios? Art
__________________
Current tank: 340g AGE peninsula |
|
05/25/2015, 08:48 AM | #30 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Appleton, WI
Posts: 879
|
+1 to this.
Im on about 18 months since my last water change. I keep the water parameters in check with effective filtration, and then resupply trace elements by using the balling method or manually. I have a very healthy reef environment...So I dunno I feel that water changes do more harm than good for me. |
05/25/2015, 09:29 AM | #31 | |
Registered Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Alsip, IL
Posts: 1,133
|
Quote:
__________________
Four legs good. Two legs better. Current Tank Info: 50G SPS/NPS Reef, 120G Mixed Reef, 120G FOWRL, 29G Seahorse tank, 20G Observation tank, |
|
05/25/2015, 11:36 AM | #32 | |
Registered Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Kansas
Posts: 57
|
Quote:
|
|
05/25/2015, 12:10 PM | #33 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: san jose california
Posts: 666
|
Thanks guys. Leaving drought politics out of the equation (California is pretty screwed up), I will say that I just really do not enjoy destroying my living room for hours to wait for big buckets to fill and mix... But, I have gone back to water changes. My corals all started dying, and I was getting a ton of hair algae. I have since done 2 30% water changes, and the problem has fixed itself so I guess if the state wants to fine me they can go right ahead its cheaper than buying new live stock.
|
05/25/2015, 12:29 PM | #34 | |
Registered Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Kansas
Posts: 57
|
Quote:
|
|
05/25/2015, 09:00 PM | #35 | |
Registered Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Appleton, WI
Posts: 879
|
Quote:
No water changes is very much a reality for me. granted, tomorrow it might all blow up...but then again we all live with that possibility. |
|
05/27/2015, 12:53 AM | #36 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Beaverton
Posts: 5,290
|
I almost never chime in on these threads because it just becomes a fight with people who do not have experience actually not doing the water changes. It's like they choose to do it so everyone has to.
I have gone up to 2.5 years without doing a water change on my mixed reef. I run a protein skimmer, and a carbon reactor. I dose Vodka and Ammino Acids. I supplement calcium, magnesium, and potassium. I find I get everything else I need through foods. I test my alk daily, but really only test my nitrate once every couple of weeks (it reads 0) I feed moderatley and leave my tank what most would consider under stocked. I don't have the best growth or the best color in the world, but I have better than most I have seen. I try to avoid adding new salt water, only doing it now after removing water from fragging to keep my salinity stable. It is doable, which is why so many people will tell you they are doing it. If I had to do a water change I have a mixing station, 2 buckets of salt, and pumps. It's not that I am irresponsible or don't care for my animals. I choose not to do water changes because I find it is best for the animals in my care. If I need to do one I will, but I will also avoid it if possible. JME
__________________
120g mixed reef 90g QT |
05/28/2015, 08:32 AM | #37 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 291
|
I'm guessing it's very different for someone with a 500 gallon monster with water changes than someone with a 40B almost nano tank.
It takes me less than 5 minutes to fill a 5 gallon bucket to the 4 gallon mark, put in 2 1\4 cups of salt, drop in a powerhead...then 24 hours later pump out 4 gallons and dump in the 4 gallons of make-up water, another 5 minutes. Once a week. But if I had 500 gallons, I would just be dosing. |
05/28/2015, 10:24 AM | #38 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Appleton, WI
Posts: 879
|
It's essentially the same amount of time commitment either way. For both you do these things:
1. set up the equipment to store the water. (10-20mins) 2. RO/DI creates the water ( this could take days to occur...but you dont need to be there) 3. dump in the salt and aerate for 24 hours. (5 mins) 4. drain the 20% from the system (10 mins) 5. pump in the 20% into the system (10 mins) I mean really...it's a half hour to an hour a week for a system that's 40 gallons or 500 gallons...the only difference is how long it takes to create the purified water. So I guess what I'm saying is that the time requirements that come with a water change for a large system versus a smaller system isn't really the concern. The concern comes with the cost, and the stability...and then, we are talking about the same relative cost per gallon no matter the size. Instead of investing time and energy into the water changes...I am a definite proponent of investing that time and energy into the equipment that eliminates the necessity for weekly water changes. The less you have to do, and the more stable the system is, the less likely you are to leave the hobby, because it remains to be enjoyable...even when you have family responsibilities, or vacations, or any time you are away from the tank for extended periods of time. Who wants to have a tank when it relies on a weekly water change? That investment then dictates your schedule. |
05/28/2015, 02:30 PM | #39 |
RC Sponsor
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 3,990
|
Just doing 2-3 gallon daily changes with the Neptune DoS.
Really don't plan on doing large single time changes anymore... 650 gallon system volume.
__________________
Peter TankStop - Fish and Coral 470G Display - Build Thread Current Tank Info: Retired - 470 Gallon Mixed Reef (120x29x31") |
05/29/2015, 09:04 AM | #40 | |
Registered Member
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 236
|
Quote:
I think for the majority of people in the hobby, WC are the best thing they can do for their tank. The select few people that are smart enough and dedicated enough can go on the forefront and experiment with the best methods of a WC-less system. I think for long term success you would need to mimic mother nature, with a large variety of organisms to naturally clean the system. A variety of algae, bacteria, micro organisms, crustaceans, etc to consume the pollutants and clean the water. A miniature biodome. The problem is the vast assortment of "pollutants" that can build up over time, and the complexity of mother nature. In my view, the best long term success would rely most heavily on a very large refugium, and or algae turf scrubber. Again, the more variety the better. Even with all of this, it may not work really long term. So much of what we ad to the tank is not natural to ocean chemistry and biology. For example, I've read articles relating the build up of Chloride and Sulfate to "old tank syndrome". These "salts" are what we stabilize most of our mineral additives with. The corals absorb the calcium and magnesium, and leave the chloride and sulfate behind. Overtime this builds up and gets saturated far above natural sea levels. I'm not against water changes, or non water changes. I just want what is best for the fish and coral. |
|
05/29/2015, 09:57 AM | #41 | |
Registered Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Beaverton
Posts: 5,290
|
Quote:
We can not emulate mother nature in a closed system and expect success. We have to use the other tools that are available to us (i.e. protein skimmers, carbon dosing, carbon, etc, etc) to keep the tanks that most of us seem to want to keep. If you are worried about elements building up, look into a Triton test. IME thus far, which is several years I have not had a build up of unwanted elements. Also if you do the math an unwanted elements would still increase over time with water changes, if that were happening. It is a completely illogical non fact based argument that water changes will dilute pollution successfully long term. If your tank husbandry adds "10" of an unwanted element a month, and you do a 20% water change, your still going to have "8 of that mystery element". A month later you will have "18 of mystery element" because your husbandry has not changed. Extrapolate that out. Water changes are not going to save you. It's a myth. Even if you did a 50% water change once a day it will not save you from elements you are introducing that are not being consumed or filtered out building up over time. You can add that same formula to anything from nitrate, to phosphate, to adding calcium (unless you are using a salt mix that has Ca numbers higher than natural seawater). Instead of relying on plants and animals and trying to get as many species and as much diversity as we can to "break everything down" IMHO, it is more important that we understand what those animals are doing, and see if we have a chemical or mechanical way we can do the job more efficiently, so we can incorporate that in our extremely limited space (when compared to the ocean). Sure algae is great. Does a great job absorbing DOC's and creating oxygen for the water. But space wise, given the same amount of space my protein skimmer clowns what a refugium that size could uptake. It is not even close. I'm not knocking refugiums, but it is not the only answer and usually not the best answer. If you want to do water changes do water changes. But don't rely on them for the health of your animals, it doesn't work. To be successful you have to dose what the animals need to thrive. You have to find ways to mechanically remove things that are harmful to the animals. Water changes will absolutely not do it IME.
__________________
120g mixed reef 90g QT |
|
06/03/2015, 10:41 AM | #42 | |
Registered Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 83
|
Quote:
|
|
06/04/2015, 09:37 AM | #43 | |
Registered Member
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 236
|
Quote:
10% change a week doesn't seem like much and the math calculates out that after 5 months, there's still 10% of the original water in the system. But in practice, it seems to do the job. I am not against skimmers. I believe they are affective at removing a significant amount of waste before decomposition. Also, I am fully aware that it takes a very large refugium to accomplish the "same" thing. But I believe that algae will remove certain pollutants that protein skimming and activated carbon leave behind. That's why I use both. Long term wc less systems, idk if a skimmer is as beneficial. A study of the skimate produced reveled these numbers: 44 % of CaCO3 5% of MgCO3 11% of biogenic opal 34% of organic material 0.5% of phosphate http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature It doesn't only pull out waste, it also removes minerals that are needed in the aquarium. This article doesn't hardly mention the removal of Chloride. "When supplementing calcium, alkalinity and magnesium, these accumulating substances can include chloride, sulfate, sodium..." "The buildup of chloride or sulfate, for example, is not readily countered by any means except water changes..." http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/ I am not a Chemist or a Biologist. I am educated and I do have some experience under my belt. I do not claim to have the answer, nor am I stating that my view is perfectly correct and sound. But I need more than an opinion to change my view. I read and research the studies and experiences of other people, along with my own experience, to come to my conclusions. |
|
06/04/2015, 01:55 PM | #44 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Appleton, WI
Posts: 879
|
Hmmm, well I have stated that I have (2) 2k gallon propagation systems and 5 display tanks that I have maintained with no water changes for 1.5-2 years with no detrimental effects. I don't want to sound crass, but that is more than opinion....how does that influence your view?
|
06/04/2015, 01:56 PM | #45 | |
RC Sponsor
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 3,990
|
Quote:
__________________
Peter TankStop - Fish and Coral 470G Display - Build Thread Current Tank Info: Retired - 470 Gallon Mixed Reef (120x29x31") |
|
06/04/2015, 08:35 PM | #46 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Appleton, WI
Posts: 879
|
Well...1lb live rock per gallon, Balling Method dosing or Calcium reactor, 10x DT water turnover, 3x rated skimmer, UV sterilizer, Bio Pellet reactor, gfo and carbon. That's the basic strategy I use, and it's worked quite well.
|
06/05/2015, 08:05 AM | #47 | |
Registered Member
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 236
|
Quote:
|
|
06/05/2015, 09:06 AM | #48 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Appleton, WI
Posts: 879
|
I dunno, I think that is a kind of extreme condition to measure the success. I would never assume that I could get away with TWENTY YEARS of no water changes, and I definitely don't think the OP was asking this question based around a 20 year lifetime.
|
06/05/2015, 09:25 AM | #49 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 9,671
|
Why shouldn't people plan to have a tank for 20 years? I hope I'll have mine around for 30-40 years. Not much more then that because I'll not want to be around much longer then that. I don't know anyone that's had a tank for more than 10 years not do some kind of periodic water change. Anything less then that and it's not a very long time at all in the life of a tank. Plus, if I recall correctly the Triton method does not say to never do a water change or that there is never a need to do them.
PaulB was mentioned above but even he does periodic water changes with NSW and/or ASW. IF it's time then water changes can can easily be automated and once a month or less make up new water. Above someone mentioned it takes just as much time to do a manaul weekly water change as the dosing methods that are becoming popular in Europe so that's not a positive or a negative for or not doing manual water changes. If it's cost then the methods being proposed are not free either. Plus, salt can be relatively cheap if you don't get caught up in marketing hype and buy expensive brands. So, to answer the OP's question yes there are ways to reduce water changes but IMO there isn't anything out there proven that completely eliminates them even the Triton method. If it's the labor part then there's many ways to simplify manual water changes and even automate them.
__________________
rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank |
06/05/2015, 10:04 AM | #50 | |
RC Sponsor
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 3,990
|
Quote:
__________________
Peter TankStop - Fish and Coral 470G Display - Build Thread Current Tank Info: Retired - 470 Gallon Mixed Reef (120x29x31") |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|