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Old 12/07/2017, 04:51 AM   #26
natural reef
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I've always thought that ich and whitespot are symptom diseases which spring up when parameters are out or are shifting. My powder blue sometimes gets it but I keep it well fed and fat to keep its immune system up and its usually after water change or ph change. the other tangs and angels much less susceptible. Sometimes also after adding a new sps but I never add the LFS water. Powder blue will get in front of the powerheads and the spots can sometimes blast off. My cleaner shrimp sometimes helps but not always. Lots of current and good water parameters are the key. Reduced lighting is not an option with corals but would help in a fish only tank


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Old 12/07/2017, 07:14 AM   #27
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I've always thought that ich and whitespot are symptom diseases which spring up when parameters are out or are shifting. My powder blue sometimes gets it but I keep it well fed and fat to keep its immune system up and its usually after water change or ph change. the other tangs and angels much less susceptible. Sometimes also after adding a new sps but I never add the LFS water. Powder blue will get in front of the powerheads and the spots can sometimes blast off. My cleaner shrimp sometimes helps but not always. Lots of current and good water parameters are the key. Reduced lighting is not an option with corals but would help in a fish only tank
Fish can develop immunity which protects the fish but allows the parasites to persist indefinitely in small numbers. Stress or the introduction of a susceptible fish can then result in a new breakout which often results in fatalities. However, it is well established that treatment during quarantine can prevent the parasites from ever getting into a tank, thus avoiding the problem.


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Old 12/07/2017, 07:22 AM   #28
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You need an auto top off if you don't already. I have tangs and haven't had a spot on any in over 12 years because my SG is rock solid. Evaporation fluctuation stresses the fish and causes the ich. All the treatments in the world isn't going to fix anything.


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Old 12/07/2017, 07:30 AM   #29
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I think what some are failing to understand is if the fish are treated properly BEFORE they ever reach the DT, there won't ever be ich in the tank. So if your PH or SG fluctuates the fish just get stressed and not sick because there was a lingering disease in the tank. Ich isn't something that just comes out of no where because a fish is stressed, the ich shows up when fish get stressed because it has always been in the tank hosting the fish from the start. Ich isn't just something you have to deal with in this hobby if you have proper QT procedures, which is no small feat at times


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Old 12/07/2017, 07:30 AM   #30
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fish can develop immunity which protects the fish but allows the parasites to persist indefinitely in small numbers. Stress or the introduction of a susceptible fish can then result in a new breakout which often results in fatalities. However, it is well established that treatment during quarantine can prevent the parasites from ever getting into a tank, thus avoiding the problem.
+1


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Old 12/07/2017, 09:57 AM   #31
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+1 Dmorty217 and Sat , you may not see ick on the fish but if it's present in the tank your fish are infected. Fish can build an immunity to ick just as we build immunity to common ailments however you have to remember ick requires a host to survive and complete its life cycle so just because you don't see it on the fish the fish is still being infected in smaller numbers the ick is most likely infecting the gills. Proper quarantine procedures will eliminate this. One word of caution to those that don't qt everything that enters there tank, velvet looks a lot like ick and it is very deadly


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Old 12/08/2017, 01:01 AM   #32
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I guess its just a different approach Ive never QT any fish or even left them in the bag floating round as I think this can all add to stress which can lead to disease. When I set up my custom 130gallon 12 months ago the LFS told me I had to cycle my tank for 6 weeks before adding fish and corals. Patience isnt my strong suit so I cycled for 45 minutes before adding fish and a heap of fresh live rock. The blue tang and chromises from day 1 still going strong... My main worry was starting out with a mantis shrimp but didnt happen, theres risk with everything and different approaches can work


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Old 12/08/2017, 07:56 AM   #33
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I guess its just a different approach Ive never QT any fish or even left them in the bag floating round as I think this can all add to stress which can lead to disease. When I set up my custom 130gallon 12 months ago the LFS told me I had to cycle my tank for 6 weeks before adding fish and corals. Patience isnt my strong suit so I cycled for 45 minutes before adding fish and a heap of fresh live rock. The blue tang and chromises from day 1 still going strong... My main worry was starting out with a mantis shrimp but didnt happen, theres risk with everything and different approaches can work
Old school Reefers like Paul B and Subsea don't QT and just let their very mature (25yr) reef tanks and varied live diets for fish (immune systems) do their thing. When I started in the hobby 19 years ago I never QTed anything either. One day you will add "just one more fish" and that fish will will have something like velvet or flukes and wipe out all of your livestock and hard work. When that happens it is heartbreaking and what causes most to leave the hobby within 3 years of setting up their first tank. All that can be avoided with proper QT.


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Old 12/08/2017, 01:52 PM   #34
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Hi Dmort yes true you could always add that one fish or coral and bring in something devastating. But equally even with QT if you run natural seawater DT changes theres a risk of picking up potential viruses and bad bacteria from ocean water. Point being we cant control everything so IMO best approach is to concentrate on the best possible water quality and livestock immunity from healthy feeding. In my sump (and this is cheap to do) I simulate a beach, a tidal zone, deep sand press, and mangroves set up tidal 3 hours on off wet dry as well as macro fuge, big skimmer, nitrate bicks, uv ,ozone, zeo, phos, carbon. This seems to allow for heavy fish stocking with about 40 corals so far mainly sps. QT tanks are small and provide less cover. This is dangerous to fish that need swimming area. Also prolonged use of copper can damage their livers. Sometimes you will see this in an LFS where for eg anthias , tangs, gobies swimming round rake thin like zombies gradually losing energy reserves. If you can get them straight in the tank and get them adjusted to the system and feeding well the immune system should kick in as the fish fattens and regains strength


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Old 12/08/2017, 02:26 PM   #35
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Hi natural reef,

As you say, everyone must choose their own risks. My experience, dating back to 1972 and as a former moderator of this forum, is there are few risks a new aquarist can take that are more hazardous and more likely to drive the aquarist away from the hobby than putting un-quarantined fish in a display tank. Few experiences are more disheartening than introducing a new fish, having half your livestock die over the next few weeks, and then being told that the only way to eradicate the infestation is to remove all the fish for 72 days.

In my early years as a saltwater aquarist, I was rarely able to keep fish alive longer than a year, mainly because a high percentage of the fish I acquired from my local LFS (where I was working at the time) would either reintroduce or reignite a Crypto infestation. I think that's a pretty common experience. When I introduced a strict quarantine program, that changed. Yes, some fish don't survive quarantine and some of them might have if I had skipped it. No, I don't equate the life of a new fish as equal to the life of my current ones... that may sound cold hearted, but I think it's being realistic.

There are sufficient reports about aquarists who have managed to control Crypto and other parasites through immunology, or maybe using filter feeders, for me to believe it can be done. However, I do not believe the majority of aquarists, especially new ones, are able to achieve this, particularly since because there is no reliable formula for doing so. To advise new aquarists to try this seems irresponsible.


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Old 12/08/2017, 02:36 PM   #36
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I haven't read all of this thread yet, so sorry if this isn't helpful.

However, check out this link for ich. I think the OP might find it interesting. http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6...highlight=H2o2


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Old 12/08/2017, 02:41 PM   #37
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Hi natural reef,



As you say, everyone must choose their own risks. My experience, dating back to 1972 and as a former moderator of this forum, is there are few risks a new aquarist can take that are more hazardous and more likely to drive the aquarist away from the hobby than putting un-quarantined fish in a display tank. Few experiences are more disheartening than introducing a new fish, having half your livestock die over the next few weeks, and then being told that the only way to eradicate the infestation is to remove all the fish for 72 days.



In my early years as a saltwater aquarist, I was rarely able to keep fish alive longer than a year, mainly because a high percentage of the fish I acquired from my local LFS (where I was working at the time) would either reintroduce or reignite a Crypto infestation. I think that's a pretty common experience. When I introduced a strict quarantine program, that changed. Yes, some fish don't survive quarantine and some of them might have if I had skipped it. No, I don't equate the life of a new fish as equal to the life of my current ones... that may sound cold hearted, but I think it's being realistic.



There are sufficient reports about aquarists who have managed to control Crypto and other parasites through immunology, or maybe using filter feeders, for me to believe it can be done. However, I do not believe the majority of aquarists, especially new ones, are able to achieve this, particularly since because there is no reliable formula for doing so. To advise new aquarists to try this seems irresponsible.


I wholeheartedly agree. Prevention by QT is SO much easier IME


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Old 12/08/2017, 03:24 PM   #38
natural reef
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Hi Sat

its a fork in the road type of approach. A lot of sumps seem to me too sterile and the systems themselves don't appear to try to replicate the processes we see in the ocean. What does an aquariest or in this case the OP really get out of having to dismantle their tank or leave it without fish if only to have the same problem return? For $50 you can imitate 4 stages of an intertidal zone with beach/rocks/sand shore/estuary and I also have a latent dark chamber which is easy cheap and great for breeding mysis. Its the 10% theory that adds up to water quality improvement and natural biology that pays back in the form of happy natural fish behaviour and less disease. Crypto and Ich are also helped along by lighting which at this point seems an unsolvable issue for us reefers. I am hoping that when the more compact auto roller filters hit the market the micron thickness may even be low enough to trap whitespot but then this low thickness may upset our gorgonians, clams and others- we will see. I purchased a rake thin purple tang 9 months ago on its last legs and got it straight onto mysis for protein in the DT. Would not have survived more than a few more days in QT, too skinny and weak. I'm not saying QT is bad either by the way but it does have its own drawbacks. Another concern is that fish stress in shallow tanks which could exacerbate these common diseases. My DT is 2.5 foot deep, but 3 foot would be even better ( and harder to work with) its all a compromise


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Old 12/08/2017, 03:30 PM   #39
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Hi Dmort yes true you could always add that one fish or coral and bring in something devastating. But equally even with QT if you run natural seawater DT changes theres a risk of picking up potential viruses and bad bacteria from ocean water. Point being we cant control everything so IMO best approach is to concentrate on the best possible water quality and livestock immunity from healthy feeding. In my sump (and this is cheap to do) I simulate a beach, a tidal zone, deep sand press, and mangroves set up tidal 3 hours on off wet dry as well as macro fuge, big skimmer, nitrate bicks, uv ,ozone, zeo, phos, carbon. This seems to allow for heavy fish stocking with about 40 corals so far mainly sps. QT tanks are small and provide less cover. This is dangerous to fish that need swimming area. Also prolonged use of copper can damage their livers. Sometimes you will see this in an LFS where for eg anthias , tangs, gobies swimming round rake thin like zombies gradually losing energy reserves. If you can get them straight in the tank and get them adjusted to the system and feeding well the immune system should kick in as the fish fattens and regains strength
If you do use natural sea water there is a chance of these parasites and others getting into the tank but for the majority of us were mixing our own water and this leaves one basic entry system for the parasites. Imo we owe it to the fish we keep as pets to get it right and give them a healthy environment to live in, i believe it to be quite cruel to snatch a fish from an ocean and place it in our tanks for our enjoyment and and the fish is miserable because of parasites. To me it's not about my life being easier by not quarantining it's about the fish being happy comfortable and a mutual enjoyment. I don't believe the average person would let there dog or cat suffer from a flea of tick infestation, so we need to get it right for the fish, these creatures did not ask to be in our tanks let's make them happy and parasite free 😃
Also then fish in the Lfs looking thin and zombie like I think you said, this has nothing to do with qt and everything to do with wholesalers and Lfs have to make a profit with that said the wholesalers are moving these fish through there facilities as fast as possible there probably not being feed hi quality food no enough food from the time the fish is caught shipped half way around the world and makes it to an Lfs they are highly stressed under feed and malnutritioned. A qt process allows the fish time to adjust without competition for food from a DT full of other fish, it allows us to watch him closely treat him for ailments and fatten him up before being introduced into a competitive environment giving him the best fighting chance of survival. Imo when this process of qt is skipped the fish is more likely going to die he's weak scared stressed possibly bullied and then has to deal with parasites.


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Old 12/08/2017, 04:17 PM   #40
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Hi Jdub
the advantage with natural seawater is you get the life and plankton in the water which then populates the intertidal zone in the sump and the DT. Although NS is not an option for many its a great way to establish and support the system. I can pick up a 1000 litres and run it through the tank exiting through the skimmer which means no buckets or hassles. The intertidal/dark zone contains processes and bacteria that are not present in standard sumps or reef keeping lore, but is present in the sea. I believe this is crucial to a successful fish tank and corals love it. I agree 100 % in keeping them all as happy and disease free. Its all a challenge and by no means perfect but when you are keeping 30 fish in a 5 foot tank you need really good filtration. My advice to the op is to start up again with some hardy damsels and go from there. If they arent surviving there are bigger problems with the op setup which may be easy to identify = start by looking at current flow and basic parameters. leave the ich susceptible fish species for down the line and just go one step at a time.


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Old 12/08/2017, 06:17 PM   #41
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Hi Sat

its a fork in the road type of approach. A lot of sumps seem to me too sterile and the systems themselves don't appear to try to replicate the processes we see in the ocean. What does an aquariest or in this case the OP really get out of having to dismantle their tank or leave it without fish if only to have the same problem return? For $50 you can imitate 4 stages of an intertidal zone with beach/rocks/sand shore/estuary and I also have a latent dark chamber which is easy cheap and great for breeding mysis. Its the 10% theory that adds up to water quality improvement and natural biology that pays back in the form of happy natural fish behaviour and less disease. Crypto and Ich are also helped along by lighting which at this point seems an unsolvable issue for us reefers. I am hoping that when the more compact auto roller filters hit the market the micron thickness may even be low enough to trap whitespot but then this low thickness may upset our gorgonians, clams and others- we will see. I purchased a rake thin purple tang 9 months ago on its last legs and got it straight onto mysis for protein in the DT. Would not have survived more than a few more days in QT, too skinny and weak. I'm not saying QT is bad either by the way but it does have its own drawbacks. Another concern is that fish stress in shallow tanks which could exacerbate these common diseases. My DT is 2.5 foot deep, but 3 foot would be even better ( and harder to work with) its all a compromise
Your approach to reef keeping is honorable don't get me wrong it's just your approach does nothing for eliminating parasites. Crypto and ick are the same thing and they are not photosynthesis parasites, dinoflagellates aka velvet are. You can create as you mentioned a tidal zone you can use uv sterilizers and roller mats and they do nothing but manage ick. Also you mentioned roller mat maybe being small enough micron to filter ick and there is a filter available that will do it, it's a diatom filter. My point is these are not effect treatments for parasites every single option you mentioned is management of parasites not elimination you can throw as much money as you want into equipment and qt will still be the only option for eradicating parasites. This post is not about managing ick it's about eliminating ick from a system.
If the op fallows proper qt procedures the ick will not come back he won't have a reoccurring problem because there will be no ick making it to his dt


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Old 12/08/2017, 08:00 PM   #42
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Fair enough JD all good points. My hypothesis which is only a theory is that the better the water quality the less ick and crypto you will have to deal with, the ultimate goal being zero. Using a powder blue which in my opinion is always one of the harder fish to keep long term as a benchmark, if it gets a tiny bit of ick now and then but none of the other fish do, and if the powder blue can shake it off then to me it supports the theory. I don't know the op's set up but there are some filtration additions for a very low spend that can help. Then you can concentrate on building up their immune systems with good feeding. Id rather drink a warm mug of skimmate than give up the tidal system

Is the OP going to purchase LR / corals as well because the water from the LFS may well contain Ick and microscopic baddies I don't see how you can avoid it.


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Old 12/08/2017, 08:45 PM   #43
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Fair enough JD all good points. My hypothesis which is only a theory is that the better the water quality the less ick and crypto you will have to deal with, the ultimate goal being zero. Using a powder blue which in my opinion is always one of the harder fish to keep long term as a benchmark, if it gets a tiny bit of ick now and then but none of the other fish do, and if the powder blue can shake it off then to me it supports the theory. I don't know the op's set up but there are some filtration additions for a very low spend that can help. Then you can concentrate on building up their immune systems with good feeding. Id rather drink a warm mug of skimmate than give up the tidal system

Is the OP going to purchase LR / corals as well because the water from the LFS may well contain Ick and microscopic baddies I don't see how you can avoid it.
You have some great ideas on ick management! I would imagine the op will continue to purchase from an Lfs or online and weather it's live rock coral macro algea snails or other fish they will all have to go through a qt in order to keep the tank parasite free. Anything wet that goes in the tank goes through qt first


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