Randy's vinegar dosing limit. I found it!

[swk]

Originally Posted by james30ct

Question for everyone. I started vinegar dosing my 180g tank and I'm on week 2. 15ml per day. When I woke up this morning tank was a little cloudy and after I dosed this afternoon it got a little cloudy again. Should I cut back? I wouldnt think this small of a dose would cause a bacterial bloom.

tank specs
temp 80
sg 1.026
alk 8
mag 1400
cal 430
nitrates always read zero but its an api test
phos also read zero with api and elos test but I have glass algae almost daily

I have 3 tangs, 2 clown and 3 smaller fish. I wanted to start vinegar because I feed a lot and I have sand and wanted to keep nutrients down.

What skimmer are you running on this tank? Seems odd. At one point I was dosing almost 65ml a day in my 75 gal and never had any cloudy water.

[james30ct]

Originally Posted by tmz

What's the water volume?

Are you using a skimmer? GAC?

water volume is probably around 180g total. I use gac and gfo and the skimmer is a jns cones co3. I do weekly 10g water changes.

[tmz]

I dose and amount of vodka and vinegar equivalent to about 102ml 5% acetic acid vinegar at your water volume. I don't know why you are experiencing cloudiness at the low level dose in use; maybe coincidental. I'd probably back off the vinegar though to see if the clouldness persists.

[Tokyoyankee]

I've ramped up to150ml now on my 90g plus sump. Quite high but I'm assuming it's bc of the 18 fish bio load. I'm using it to combat the nuisance algae along with 500grams of GFO

[MrineLfRlz]

Got my results back from AWT today wow! Nitrates 48!
I didnt see these results with my test kit time to buy new ones!
Im really thinking about starting vinegar dosing i tried bio pellet reactor explosion of cyano! I read here http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index....arine-aquarium
that vinegar has reduced cyano growth and not to mention having to keep alk low for bio pellets, that was almost impossible for me!

[MrineLfRlz]

So can i dose the pure distilled white vinegar (5%) straight from the vinegar bottle with my doser or do i and how much should i dilute it since i do not dose kalk?
I was going to start out with the 15ml per 100g and i have around 250g water vol.

[swk]

Originally Posted by MrineLfRlz

So can i dose the pure distilled white vinegar (5%) straight from the vinegar bottle with my doser or do i and how much should i dilute it since i do not dose kalk?
I was going to start out with the 15ml per 100g and i have around 250g water vol.

Do not dilute without kalkwasser present. I dose mine during daylight hours straight from the bottle with a brs 1.1ml Doser.

[bertoni]

The vinegar will start to decay if it's diluted with plain water. Kalk can act as a preservative, but it's fine to dose straight 5% distilled vinegar.

[MrineLfRlz]

Originally Posted by bertoni

The vinegar will start to decay if it's diluted with plain water. Kalk can act as a preservative, but it's fine to dose straight 5% distilled vinegar.

Originally Posted by swk

Do not dilute without kalkwasser present. I dose mine during daylight hours straight from the bottle with a brs 1.1ml Doser.

ok thanks for the help just need to make sure i do this correctly
Im picking up the vinegar after work in the morning

[MrineLfRlz]

Ok i got my vinegar will be setting up my extra doser head for dosing i will be dosing 35ml stretched out 2 maybe 4 times daily" i have all connected tanks downstairs with a opposite light schedule then DT" then increase by 15ml per week and after nitrates are close to not readable back off 15ml per week till i stop unless nitrates build back up then?

[bertoni]

That seems like a reasonable idea, in general, although I'd back off slowly once the nitrate level reaches an acceptable level. This link gives a conservative schedule on ramping up the dosing:

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index....arine-aquarium

[MrineLfRlz]

Ive decided to start a new thread about my dosing process to keep track on it better.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2529041

[JDuong916]

I have a question about vinegar dosing and I can't seem to find the answer to. I normally dose 7ml of vodka a day in my system (150 gallon total). I have an ato that is 10 gallons that takes about a week to use up. I add 3 tablespoons of kalk to my ato every time i refill it. I want to know if i can just add 400 ml of vinegar (7ml vodka X 8 X 7 days) to my ato and not deal with the daily vodka dosing?

[bertoni]

That should be okay. The general issue with diluting vinegar (or vodka) is that bacteria might be able to consume the carbon before it gets into the tank. The Kalk should act as a preservative, though.

[JDuong916]

Sweet, thanks for the info.

[discos]

Originally Posted by MrineLfRlz

I read here http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index....arine-aquarium
that vinegar has reduced cyano growth and not to mention having to keep alk low for bio pellets, that was almost impossible for me!

If you can not keep alk low for pellet, how can you keep low with vinegar? And with biopellet there are many reports that works safe in higher alk.

[tmz]

If you can not keep alk low for pellet, how can you keep low with vinegar? And with biopellet there are many reports that works safe in higher alk.

Organic carbon dosing whether soluble organics like vodka ( ethanol) and/or vinegar(acetic acid ) or more complex carbohydrates like bio plastics( pellets) may have a small effect on alkalinity as the heterotrophic bacteria use some bicarbonate . Some of which may come back when acetate ultimately formed is metabolized .

All in all there is little if any effect on alkalinity at least none that is detectable ,IME, with any of them whne dosed at equal levels.

The heterotrophic bacteria compete with the the ammonia oxidizing bacteria for ammonia and actually take up less bicarbonate than the ammonia oxidizers do and often outcompete them . So, in that regard there may be a less alkalinity used by bacterial activity overall in a specific aquarium with organic carbon dosing . However, the nitrate formed by ammonia oxidation puts back some of the alkalinty when it is reduced via anaerobic bacterial activity .

As for cyano, it sometimes occurs with any of the organic carbon sources including vinegar,vodka and pellets. I suspect it's more of a start up issue related changes in competition for less nutrients that gives cyano a temporary advantage until bacteria establish themselves fully. After the first month or so , I haven't seen any notable cyano in my system and have been dosing a combination of vodka and vinegar for about 6 years.

I prefer soluble organics( vodka and vinegar) because:

it's much easier to get a precise and constant organic carbon dose than it is with pellets;

more complex carbohydrates like pellets, sugars, rice , etc have a much longer degradation pathways including breakdown to monomers some of which may be harmful,IMO.

[jonwright]

However, adding vinegar to kalkwasser will increase available alk/ca via kalk solution with a bit of carbon dosing, correct?

[bertoni]

Adding vinegar to Kalkwasser will drop the pH somewhat and it will allow you to dissolve more Kalk, if you'd like to do that. Vinegar by itself won't add any alkalinity or calcium, or change availability.

[jonwright]

Saturated kalk isn't keeping up with demand and I always have low(ish) ph. So I figure more alk will help with demand and keep ph roughly where it needs to be. Since a bit of vinegar allows more alk in solution. Also help with a bit of cyano. However that's being offset by more bacteria mats. I don't have a lot of corals nor rock. Hmmmmm.

[bertoni]

The change in pH due to adding vinegar is small. I wouldn't worry about it.

[tmz]

Fully saturated (2tsps per gallon ) kalk is around 12.4 pH. If you add 48ml of 5% acetic acid vinegar you can dissolve about 2.7 tsps and keep the same pH while adding more calcium and alkalinity. However, that much carbon at start up might be too much. A start around 12 ml of vinegar and 2.1 tsps of kalk is recommended and can be amped up over time .

[jonwright]

Yup. That's what I've done. Thanks guys. Maybe I knew more than i thought I did. ��

I started at 5 ml/gal then after a couple weeks I went to 15 and a few days ago I'm up to 30 to see if alk will stay put. What's curious is that seemingly the more alk available the more is used. By reading the statement previously by tmz I was thinking it was just used up by bacteria. Which of the bacteria is using additional all that's being amped up by vinegar I was wondering if adding vinegar is moot as a vehicle for increased alk. However the cyano seems to have eased up and the anemone seems really extended and the clam is happy. So I'll carry on and see how it goes.

[tmz]

When calcium hydroxide Ca(OH)2 is added to water the oxide neutralizes H+ (acid) raising the pH ;less H+ leads to a shift (speciation) of bicarbonate(HCO3) to carbonate(CO3) . Carbonate has twice the alkalinity bicarbonate has. So, the more oxide you add the higher the alkalinity .

On the other hand the more H+ entering the tank the more H+ there will be as it hydrolizes.

The acetic acid(CH3 OOH ) in the vinegar adds H+ mitigating the pH rise from oxide thus allowing more carbonate alkalinity to remain in solution without precipitatin to calicium carbonate.


The heterotrophic bacteria use very llttle alkalinity and balance that out when they metabolize the acetate in a subsequent step ;so , they are of little if any consequence to alkalinity in the end.

[mtgh]

Can I dose vinegar using my jebao dosing pump?
Thanks