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Old 02/02/2016, 06:33 PM   #2926
seamonster124
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Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
Ah, I see. Well, I probably would worry more about something toxic in it, but in theory, a toxin might encourage dinoflagellates. I think the odds are heavily against that possibility, though.
I'm sure yo uare right. I went ahead and bought a 44G Brute food grade anyways. I noticed the roughneck smelled a bit like chemicals and I found some forum posts about them not being food grade.


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Old 02/02/2016, 06:36 PM   #2927
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How much phyto are you adding?
Bottle of Seachem says 5mil for every 50 gallons. This about you are adding?
I'm adding live Phyto. Seachem is dead. I add 4oz per roughly 125G Total water volume 1-2 times per day.

The growth of funky little creatures has been very interesting. I may have 10 types of macro feather dusters.


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Old 02/02/2016, 06:45 PM   #2928
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Originally Posted by seamonster124 View Post
I'm adding live Phyto. Seachem is dead. I add 4oz per roughly 125G Total water volume 1-2 times per day.

The growth of funky little creatures has been very interesting. I may have 10 types of macro feather dusters.
i thought u said earlier in the thread the dirty method worked for you did they come back afterwards?


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Old 02/02/2016, 07:51 PM   #2929
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Still working on the idea of how to scale up the effectiveness of adding micro life to a tank sized infestation.
My skimmer "green tea" just isn't a large enough amount to disrupt the dinos sandbed home.

Has anyone tried a sandbed transplant?

I think I could culture a large mass of live sand with lots of micro critters, then remove top layer of my dino sand and replace with my fresh sand.

Been done before?


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Old 02/02/2016, 08:16 PM   #2930
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i thought u said earlier in the thread the dirty method worked for you did they come back afterwards?

Yep, they came back for two days and covered everything. But now they're all gone… this time I just blew them off with a powerhead and collected them with a filter sock. Now we are crystal-clear… Really makes no sense


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Old 02/02/2016, 09:11 PM   #2931
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Yep, they came back for two days and covered everything. But now they're all gone… this time I just blew them off with a powerhead and collected them with a filter sock. Now we are crystal-clear… Really makes no sense
i'm thinking manual removal to be mandatory at this point, reduce their population severely and hope whatever other organisms u have in the tank can fill the dinos place... if not they come back. how big is your filter sock? i got some 50 um coming


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Old 02/03/2016, 07:47 AM   #2932
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I thought I’d post an update on my dinos (follow-up to my posts #2652 and #2696).

The summary is they are 90% gone, with a couple of patches on the sand and on a couple of rocks. In fact my pictures – both of original bloom and the “after” pictures – look quite like the experience of FishKeeper82 in post 2696. In fact it also sounds like we adopted a similar approach.

Symptoms
Like many I originally thought I had a cyano outbreak before the dinos appeared. In fact I may well have had both as DNA among others have suggested the one often succeeds - or supplants - the other. I realised it was dinos when long strings developed with bubbles and from the colour and consistency. I bought a microscope but was not able to work out a definitive ID of species but as noted earlier I suspect it was not Ostreopsis Ovata as it seemed not to be too toxic. I lost a few snails (not all), a few SPS frags and smaller colonies but nothing else. Some SPS seemed particularly affected especially at the growth tips and succumbed, others seemed entiorely unaffected. LPS and clams were unaffected as were other invertebrates. 3 BTAs sulked but survived.

What I did
I decided to try a multi-prong strategy which has the advantage of maximising chances of some success but disadvantage that I cannot really determine what – if anything – was the main cause of improvement. I continued to run my existing UV (don’t know wattage) and added another 36W V2 Vectron (25 watts) and ran it at 800 litres / hour. I added quite a lot more live rock and rubble to my DT, sump and frag tank. I added an additional grow lamp to encourage extra chaeto in an in-line water change tank. I added some more pods (much more expensive and less available here in the UK than in the US). I siphoned out visible dinos in my frag tank (easier as no sand) and from rocks in DT. I fed a little more and stopped straining the thawed “ice water” before feeding. I added phyto in a fairly unscientific way – just pouring in maybe 50ml per day either into DT, into sump or both. I removed my 3 sand-sifting starfish (astropecten polycanthus) based on the theory that they were depopulating my sandbed of micro-fauna. I changed the resin in my RO cartridges and added an additional resin cartridge before the ATO reservoir. I added Sera Silicate remover. I removed my Rowaphos from reactor (replaced with the silicate remover). I dosed more sodium bicarbonate to raise dKH. I added beneficial bacteria (mainly zeobak) on an ad hoc basis, usually but not exclusively with coral snow.

What happened
I noticed a gradual improvement from mid-January where there was more coralline appearing on the rocks where dinos had covered them, and I noticed some dinos no longer carpeting the sand. Last week I did another 3 day blackout which – as one would expect – made most visible dinos recede. Since then they have only reappeared as described above in a few patches and for now appear not to be gaining any foothold. It remains to be seen if they disappear completely, launch a comeback or remain in this status quo.

My theory
I think my “bloom” (maybe wrong word but I am happy to be corrected) MAY have been down to (1) impurity in my RO unit (TDS reading was 80-90 before I changed the resin) (2) surprisingly low dKH (between 5 and 6); (3) using Chemiclean when I thought I had cyano (4) depleted microfauna in sandbed

Curent State
For the first time in several months I am enjoying my aquarium again, and would be fine if it stayed as it is right now even with some patches of dinos. I have replaced a couple of the dead SPS frags with new ones that seem fine. Things may all go downhill fast again as I take nothing for granted in this hobby but for today at least my glass is half full.

Good luck everyone.

5 "Before" pictures - "after" pictures to follow


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Before dino_1.jpg (66.5 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg Before dino_2.jpg (79.6 KB, 32 views)
File Type: jpg Before dino_3.jpg (96.3 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg Before dino_4.jpg (99.4 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg Before dino_5.jpg (96.0 KB, 39 views)
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Old 02/03/2016, 07:50 AM   #2933
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"After" pictures


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File Type: jpg After dino_1.jpg (94.0 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg After dino_2.jpg (101.2 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg After dino_3.jpg (88.6 KB, 32 views)
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Old 02/03/2016, 09:27 AM   #2934
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Originally Posted by rallibon View Post
"After" pictures
Pretty nice. I am currently at 80% dinos gone..same method as you described, only difference is that i added bio spira and mb7 instead of the stuff you used. I do notice that the dinos cleared all my coraline algae off the tank glass..do they eat coraline?


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Old 02/03/2016, 10:16 AM   #2935
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I thought I’d post an update on my dinos (follow-up to my posts #2652 and #2696).
Excellent post rallibon!
I've tried most of what you have but not all at once.
Let's hope your current status will not decline.


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Old 02/03/2016, 10:25 AM   #2936
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i'm thinking manual removal to be mandatory at this point, reduce their population severely and hope whatever other organisms u have in the tank can fill the dinos place... if not they come back. how big is your filter sock? i got some 50 um coming

I have 100 and 200 micron ssocks.I do replace every day or two days at the very most.


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Old 02/03/2016, 10:28 AM   #2937
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Yes trying similar ralibon, ordered new skimmer and replacing RO membrane as I also suspect that, didn't test it with tds as really knew it was past it's best and felt the money for a metre might as well be just spent on a new membrane. Adding Nyos Bac and my little population of pods daily. Pretty sure cyano is linked as well as I had similar to you. Mine aren't or don't seem to be toxic and still convinced my coral beauty is eating it! Still getting some every day on soft corals and lost my Duncan and Cat's paw but everything else still coping. It's interesting how it seems to change though, had none on sand for a few days but now less on glass. Then last two days more on sand again. My cheato has hardly grown at all since the outbreak and really torn on lighting in the sump as I put a grow light in and that's when I got a massive cyano outbreak so took it out and put the T8 back in but like you thinking the lack of lighting isn't helping outgrow the Dino so trying the stronger grow light again tonight. I have also added some polyfilter to help get rid of any toxins especially if the RO was dodgy. Very persistent on some soft corals and not others also interesting, two zoas next to each other and one gets it the other one doesn't. Looking forward to getting where you are, nearly there though and definitely nowhere near as bad as some!



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Old 02/03/2016, 12:01 PM   #2938
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I have been fighting dino's for a very long time as well. I have been able to get it contain it to just the sand bed and it also doesn't seem to be affecting my sand sifting star fish. At this point, I have tried the dirty method with very little success, I'm running a 36w UV with low flow rate, change filter socks every other day.

I have noticed coralline growth on the back of the tank again and other green algae grown on my return lines. At this point, I am thinking about removing my star fish, and sucking out all of the sand. I don't want to go bare bottom, so I was thinking about slowing adding in a crushed coral type base back into the tank. Has anyone ever tried this? Will the dino's attach to crushed coral base like they do to sand? I'm sure the answer is yes if they can and do attach to corals and rocks.

The only other thing I can think about doing is getting another dragon goby. Other than the constant sand storm he created, the tank was free of dino's. I don't have any corals in the tank (just some zoo's and a small hammer coral). The zoo's are doing outstanding and aren't being affected by the dino's.

This is the weirdest stuff I have ever had to deal with in the hobby (15+ years).


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Old 02/03/2016, 03:52 PM   #2939
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a lot of you seem to be running UV, i'm gonna go research on what will fit my tank and how to set it up and I'll do a 3 day blackout when the UV comes in... so when they are in the water column.


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Old 02/03/2016, 04:46 PM   #2940
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Anyone care to explain to me why UV would be beneficial also what are the side effects?


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Old 02/03/2016, 04:55 PM   #2941
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Anyone care to explain to me why UV would be beneficial also what are the side effects?
UV-B light at the right intensity and exposure will reduce the mobility and reproduction in *some* species of dinoflagellate, but not all.

The biggest side effect is that it does a very good job of killing pods, rotifiers, bacteria and phytoplankton which you really want to help rather than hinder.


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Old 02/03/2016, 05:38 PM   #2942
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I have been fighting dino's for a very long time as well. I have been able to get it contain it to just the sand bed and it also doesn't seem to be affecting my sand sifting star fish. At this point, I have tried the dirty method with very little success, I'm running a 36w UV with low flow rate, change filter socks every other day.

I have noticed coralline growth on the back of the tank again and other green algae grown on my return lines. At this point, I am thinking about removing my star fish, and sucking out all of the sand. I don't want to go bare bottom, so I was thinking about slowing adding in a crushed coral type base back into the tank. Has anyone ever tried this? Will the dino's attach to crushed coral base like they do to sand? I'm sure the answer is yes if they can and do attach to corals and rocks.

The only other thing I can think about doing is getting another dragon goby. Other than the constant sand storm he created, the tank was free of dino's. I don't have any corals in the tank (just some zoo's and a small hammer coral). The zoo's are doing outstanding and aren't being affected by the dino's.

This is the weirdest stuff I have ever had to deal with in the hobby (15+ years).



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Old 02/03/2016, 05:45 PM   #2943
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I honestly don't think removing the sand bed will help much as they will grow on glass, discovered loads in the bottom of my sump today and nothing but glass on the bottom although not the brown snotty stuff just the dusty bits seems like they will just adapt to whatever they can. Also discovered that although I thought the filter I was using was collecting the stringy stuff it still let some through so ordered 10 micron socks today. So no wonder I wasn't getting rid of as much as I thought some was still escaping!

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Old 02/03/2016, 06:00 PM   #2944
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A UV unit might be able to kill single-celled organisms up to a fairly large size, but the ones we use won't harm a fully-grown copepod, etc, or even a juvenile one. I agree that they will kill bacteria in the water column and phytoplankton, though.


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Old 02/03/2016, 06:29 PM   #2945
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UV will kill organisms in the water column.

Most bacteria and pods and benthic = not in the water column. They live in rocks/sand/etc...

Dinos leave the hard surfaces and live in the water column when it's dark. They become particularly susceptible to death by UV if the flow is slow enough.

I run a multi-day dark period with UV and heavy wet skimming and carbon. The dark made them take to the water column, the UV killed them, the wet skimming removed their dead tissue and the carbon removed any toxins.

The survivors were eaten by the pods who came out in the dark to feed.


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Old 02/03/2016, 08:01 PM   #2946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taricha
Still working on the idea of how to scale up the effectiveness of adding micro life to a tank sized infestation.
My skimmer "green tea" just isn't a large enough amount to disrupt the dinos sandbed home.
An upside-down glass vessel like an old fishbowl would contain the phyto and microfauna to a small area and give them time to settle to the sand. If it doesn't work, you can increase the amount of phyto tea in the bowl and/or the time you leave the bowl in place with future trials to see if the green phyto holobiont can establish a beachhead in the sand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by taricha
I think I could culture a large mass of live sand with lots of micro critters, then remove top layer of my dino sand and replace with my fresh sand.

Been done before?
Not to my knowledge.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon174
I don't want to go bare bottom, so I was thinking about slowing adding in a crushed coral type base back into the tank. Has anyone ever tried this?
As you suspected, dinos can infest tanks with coarse substrates, too.

But be of good cheer: in what is arguably the definitive description of the dirty method, cal_stir said he removed and later successfully replaced his sand bed.


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Originally Posted by seamonster124
Anyone care to explain to me why UV would be beneficial also what are the side effects?
Slow-flow UV is fundamental to the clean method.


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Old 02/03/2016, 09:38 PM   #2947
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A UV unit might be able to kill single-celled organisms up to a fairly large size, but the ones we use won't harm a fully-grown copepod, etc, or even a juvenile one. I agree that they will kill bacteria in the water column and phytoplankton, though.
Do you know what types of free floating bacteria are in our tanks? I'm thinkign surely the bacterial population won't be affected as bad as dinos since bacteria can presumably multiply much faster than the much larger protists?


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Old 02/03/2016, 10:18 PM   #2948
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An upside-down glass vessel like an old fishbowl would contain the phyto and microfauna to a small area and give them time to settle to the sand. If it doesn't work, you can increase the amount of phyto tea in the bowl and/or the time you leave the bowl in place with future trials to see if the green phyto holobiont can establish a beachhead in the sand.
Hah! Great idea. I'll see what I can do.


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Old 02/03/2016, 10:25 PM   #2949
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I don't know how much a UV unit affects the bacterial population, but I'd expect it to be fairly effective if it's sized properly. Our tanks don't appear to depend much on bacteria in the water column, so the topic hasn't been studied all that much, as far as I know.


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Old 02/03/2016, 10:53 PM   #2950
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I don't know how much a UV unit affects the bacterial population, but I'd expect it to be fairly effective if it's sized properly. Our tanks don't appear to depend much on bacteria in the water column, so the topic hasn't been studied all that much, as far as I know.
Agreed. The bacteria we tend to focus on is on the surfaces of media (rocks, sand, plastic, pellets), or in the mucus of fish and coral.

Some of this naturally dissolves into the water column, but it's not a substantial % of impactful population. If it were, our skimmers would likely remove them as efficiently as the UV would kill them.


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