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Old 02/16/2016, 04:39 AM   #3126
joti26
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Karimwassef I wish I had taken before and after pics as well but like you too embarrassed lol! Mind you my outbreak was spotted early so never looked as bad as some although the impact on some corals was obvious. I can't add carbon yet as still using the polyp lab medic. Day four of having lights back to normal although have reduced the red spectrum a bit rocks are looking the cleanest they have ever been. All zoos, xenia, colt coral and Kenya trees looking good. Just two tiny spots appearing on them but most of the dusting gone now. 10 micron socks lasting two days now as well. Still dosing bacteria, coral snow and polyp lab medic to help with what seems to be a very slight outbreak of WS just on my coral beauty. I suspect this has been due to me doing so much siphoning! Pretty sure that is helping get rid of the 'dust' as after dosing I get a nice load of bits floating into the water column. Cheato completely clear now and starting to grow again, adding a nice population of pods every day as I now have a nice breeding tank going on. I still can't say it has gone completely but every day there is less and less just two or three strings yesterday on the colt and Kenya tree.


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Old 02/16/2016, 02:29 PM   #3127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taricha View Post
Experiments!

I have so many dinos to experiment on...

This is even better than dinos in a test tube.


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Old 02/16/2016, 04:11 PM   #3128
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Why is beaker > test tube?


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Old 02/17/2016, 10:04 AM   #3129
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I seem to be winning the battle for the moment against my ostreopsis. After a week, visually, it is mostly gone from the rocks and sand surface in the display. It became more abundant on egg crate in my frag tank, so I've banished that for the moment also. Corals seems to be doing better, less closed, and my plate, hammer and torch corals seem to be well inflated and extended more than I've seen in a while. Carbonate (alk) consumption is up as well, but by what percentage I still need to work out.

I still have no measurable phosphates or nitrates in the water column

The theory I've hung my hopes on is a lack of abundance and diversity of microfauna and microbial life, which seems to be improving. I'm basing this on microscopic observations of water samples, which I'm getting after taking a cup of substrate from the most afflicted spots, and taking a sample with a syringe from below the sand in said cup. There seems to be fewer dinos in the sample, and more (at least a dozen) ciliates I think. They are single cell beasties that move about with little hairs as legs. Last week, I only saw two, one each in 2 of 3 samples. There were also 4 or 5 worm shaped microbes, I've no idea what they might be called. Last week I only saw one of them, once, out of three samples.

What I've done so far:
-stopped carbon dosing (vinegar)
-2ml/10 gal hydrogen peroxide
-reduced skimming
-increased feeding
-adding 2 capfulls of Seachem Reef Phytoplankton daily

This is all very anecdotal, but if there's any specific data I can begin collecting, or results I can test for repeatability, please let me know.


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Last edited by W1ngz; 02/17/2016 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 02/17/2016, 10:48 AM   #3130
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Any order those need to be done in? Can you start dosing phyto anytime? Do you need to cut out carbon dosing/pellets before adding peroxide?


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Old 02/17/2016, 11:27 AM   #3131
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Any order those need to be done in? Can you start dosing phyto anytime? Do you need to cut out carbon dosing/pellets before adding peroxide?
I did them all at about the same time. But I'm no authority on the subject, I'm just a desperate reefer up against a difficult, persistent pest.

From what I've read, ostreopsis is the most resilient type of common dinoflagellate. There's no 'one' cure, it needs to be multifaceted, sustained for several weeks, and probably repeated again periodically.


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Old 02/17/2016, 12:24 PM   #3132
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How can I know for sure this is what Im battling? Only way is under a scope?


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Old 02/17/2016, 12:28 PM   #3133
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How can I know for sure this is what Im battling? Only way is under a scope?
yes. Post pics from the microscope, get help or compare to what you see on here: http://www.algaeid.com/identification/


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Old 02/17/2016, 03:26 PM   #3134
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my update

I am just posting an update on my tank. I am assuming what I have in the tank may be amphidinium dino's. We were running the UV lite 24/7 and we noticed a big decrease in the dino's on the corals rocks and sand. Most of what was left was only in patches on the sand. My husband was syphoning out a lot of the dinos on the sand weekly as well. Then we added the macro algae and pods and that also helped. Last weekend we added Seachem Stability and shut off the UV for 24 hours as directed on their website. Today I am looking in the tank and the dino's are returning. So it is either from adding the Stability, shutting off the UV for 24 hours or a little of both? I have a question mark there because I am speculating. So I don't think I will be adding that anymore. Oh, and we have also been running a little dirtier tank than usual for the last few months no longer aiming for zero nitrates.


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Old 02/17/2016, 04:17 PM   #3135
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why stop UV?? I left my UV on for months after I got the dinos out. It gave the other benthic microorganisms time to take hold.


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Old 02/17/2016, 04:25 PM   #3136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
why stop UV?? I left my UV on for months after I got the dinos out. It gave the other benthic microorganisms time to take hold.
the UV was not stopped altogether. Just for 24 hours per the Seachem Stability instructions to allow the spores to dilute and turn into bacteria and then make its way to rocks or sand. It is so the UV doesn't kill the beneficial bacteria while in the water column. The UV was turned on again after the initial dose of the Stability was added and allowed to settle.

I am wondering if the dino's were feeding on the added bacteria.


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Old 02/17/2016, 06:12 PM   #3137
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I am all for adding bacteria, but I add it directly to regions with high surface area.. Sandbed, rockwork, especially between and around the rocks, cryptic zones, etc...

IMO - I would turn flow off at night and apply the bacteria to the regions with the highest dino populations by day and give it some time (an hour?)... Then turn flow on again.

If some are killed by UV- it's casualties of war.

They usually also say to stop skimming. I don't do that. The extra bacteria population could consume a lot of oxygen, so I keep everything on.


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Old 02/17/2016, 06:33 PM   #3138
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Thanks for taking on the task of developing a useful FAQ, Quiet_Ivy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by So You Think You Have Dinos
Dosing peroxide at 2mL/10gallons has helped a few people, but has NOT worked for the majority. Whole tank dosing of peroxide is dangerous to small ornamental shrimp and clams.
H2O2 + UV was a thing back in 2014...


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11/09/2013, 03:19 PM #82
Josh40996
Frag-nem-style /><{{{">

I have been battling Dinoflagellates for some months now and have tried lots of methods to eradicate them in conjunction with lights out, with each only providing a Dino. free reef for several seconds after lights back on.

Recently, I invested in a 24 watt UV sterilizer for my 30 gallon reef and installed it on my tank. I turned off my lights and covered the aquarium for 3 days. During the 3 days of darkness, I continued to dose H2O2. 1ml of 35% H2O2 per day.

The results are spectacular! Once lights were resumed, no Dino bloom and any remaining Dinos. have slowly disappeared. The skimmer went nuts for the 3 days the lights were off and after the 3rd day, the skimmer collection jug overflown. I have been Dino. free now for 3 almost 4 days now and have done my first water change in almost a month and still no Dinos. bloom as a WC always promoted. For me, even a week free from Dinoflagellates is worth anything as it is the most problem free the tank has been for months.

I am a very happy chap.

...UV in conjunction with the H2O2 really did the trick
Quote:
08/23/2014, 05:02 PM #318
LelandF.

Well I've been fighting dinoflagellates for over 2 years in my 200gal reef, and I feel I've finally beat them. I've literally tried everything over the last 2 years. I replaced my sand bed, I did a 3 day blackout, I changed large amounts of water every week, I didn't change any water for months, I tried large amounts of GFO, I tried large amounts of activated carbon, I tried vodka dosing, I tried replacing the light bulbs, I tried UV, I tried adding a brightly lit refugium, full of caulerpa and chaeto, etc. I am a very educated, long time aquarist, and I've always had successful reef aquariums, but this tank has been a headache to say the least.

After trying everything I decided that I was going to go at the Dino's hard, or tear the tank down and start it over with new rock and sand. I figured that I would spend a large sum of money on starting over, and with my luck the Dino's would probably just come back.

So, my current tank is 7'x2'x2', with 2-vortech mp40's, one on each end facing each other. I normally have them on quick pulse, but changed them to 100% power on continuous mode, and increased the size of my return pump to increase turnover through my sump & skimmer. I added a filter bag to my sump, and added a aqua UV unit that I hung on the main tank w PVC and a mag drive to help sterilize the main tanks water quickly. I changed my dosing pump to dose the kalkwasser make-up water during the day instead of the night, to raise the daytime pH. I also added 2mL/10gal of fresh peroxide for 8 days. I also started blasting my rocks and whole tank with a power head, in the morning and evening.

Within 2 days the Dino's were almost gone. In 5 days, there weren't any Dino's to be found.
...but it didn't catch on because the dinos always came back.

I don't know as anyone has tried H2O2 + UV and followed up with the dirty method or pods & phyto to keep the dinos down, but it looks like it might be worth a shot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by taricha
I have so many dinos to experiment on...
Not to mention what looks like a proper lab bench to work on. Neat. Where are you doing your mad scientist thing?

Have you tried transplanting a beaker of dino sand into your 10G live sand culture tank? That is, have you tried the reverse of the experiment with the phyto tea in an upside-down fish bowl?

Or if you don't want to risk that, have you played around with feeding dinos to your phyto tea? The idea being to increase the populations of whatever creatures, be they bacteria or protists or microfauna, are eating the dinos before you dose your tank.


Quote:
Originally Posted by justthewife
I am wondering if the dino's were feeding on the added bacteria.
Seachem Stability contains a lot of nitrogen cycle bacteria, but in a fully cycled tank, at any given moment there are about as many N-cycle bacteria as the tank can support. Even if the bacteria in Stability successfully hatch and take over the appropriate ecological niches in your sand bed, their success will come at the expense of an established population of nitrogen cycle bacteria, so large numbers of bacteria are dying somewhere and providing a burst of fresh nutrients for the dinos' bacteria farms.

Or maybe some OTC bacteria products are dino chow, as you suggested.

Quiet_Ivy may have better info in her chart, but IIRC PorkchopExpress and cal_stir reported OTC bacteria-in-a-bottle did nothing and stopped dosing. There doesn't seem to have been much enthusiasm for it until relatively recently, though this is an exception:


Quote:
02/06/2015, 08:41 AM #743
GilliganReef

I beat DINOS by:
running a GFO reactor, Carbon reactor
every other day siphon into filter socks/replace
weekly 10% W/C, every other week 25%
3 days lights out once a month.
The thing I found to help really fight it was adding beneficial bacteria into my tank.
Started 15 day prodibio Bioclean
6 weeks prodibio reefboaster.
Been doing this for 3 months now and No DINOs.



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Old 02/17/2016, 06:50 PM   #3139
karimwassef
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Who's used Dr Tim's waste away bacteria? They displace cyano

http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/natural-aquarium-cleaner


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Old 02/17/2016, 09:28 PM   #3140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 34cygni View Post
Not to mention what looks like a proper lab bench to work on. Neat. Where are you doing your mad scientist thing?
In my physics classroom.

Quote:
Have you tried transplanting a beaker of dino sand into your 10G live sand culture tank? That is, have you tried the reverse of the experiment with the phyto tea in an upside-down fish bowl?
Nope, still waiting for my live sand culture to get more algae filled (getting close), but it's pretty live with tiny pods already. But you're exactly right. I will add dinos to the culture sand first.
Besides, if the culture live sand can't kill a few ml of dinos, then there's no point going through with the sandbed transplant.

Quote:
Or if you don't want to risk that, have you played around with feeding dinos to your phyto tea? The idea being to increase the populations of whatever creatures, be they bacteria or protists or microfauna, are eating the dinos before you dose your tank.
Thanks so much for crystalizing the idea for me. That idea connects a lot of things I've had knocking around in my head for a couple of days:

Most of my beaker tests are based on the theory of the skimmer green tea outcompeting dinos for some resource like trace elements, but as I looked at papers on the topic, depletion was having an effect on the dinos over like 4 weeks or 8+ weeks. It just doesn't match what I'm seeing (dinos gone in 4-7 days). The short time scale strongly suggests predation (or poisoning etc). Realized this only after I set up my beaker tests.

The skimmer tea is practically dino free (my dinos don't leave the sand) and likely concentrates stuff that eats dinos.
In the right ratios it can eradicate a patch of dinos.
In insufficient ratios, the dinos are unaffected.
I put the skimmer stuff in light for 24-48 hours to try to concentrate whatever is in there, but it looks thin under the scope. Maybe it would work better straight out of the skimmer.
After a few days of putting the mix with the dinos, at the time the dinos are decreasing, under the scope the mix looks absolutely packed with zooming life.
I've also thought maybe I should cultivate the skimmer mix in the dark, that way the organisms in the mix would be undisturbed by lights out, and I could hit the dinos with a 1-2 of darkness + skimmer mix. I couldn't call it "green tea" though, Maybe I'll call that skimmer "black tea."
Thank you again.


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Old 02/17/2016, 10:15 PM   #3141
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And just to add questions to a topic that has too many questions already...

I wasn't even planning on putting my samples under the scope until 2 or 3 days, but after less than 24 hours... I found this.

All my beakers looked like brown, stringy, bubbly happy dinos


...except one that looked like this


That's my What The Heck beaker. It's the only beaker with a treatment that no one would be willing to do in a tank.
Had extra dino and mix, put 1 drop of 4-12-4 miracle grow quick start in 50ml of dinos mix. My sketchy math says that's 94 ppm nitrate and 89 ppm phosphate!
So I figured I'd put it under the scope and see a complete dead wasteland. Nope.
Lots of micro life swimming. 1 species of dino totally wiped out, but the other (amphidinium) still moving but in very reduced numbers.
So weird.


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Old 02/17/2016, 11:03 PM   #3142
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No way... seriously?


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Old 02/17/2016, 11:05 PM   #3143
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can you try the standard stuff? 24-8-16? That's more rich in Nitrogen.

If that works, then maybe the freshwater nitrogen food?


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Old 02/18/2016, 01:30 AM   #3144
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Originally Posted by taricha View Post
And just to add questions to a topic that has too many questions already...
... So weird.
Some results already in, I'm loving this.
What the heck moments are perfectly normal. I have them all the time.


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Old 02/18/2016, 01:35 AM   #3145
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Today I am looking in the tank and the dino's are returning.
This is how dinos operate. Their seemingly blinding fast growth rate have not been explained properly yet.
Even though you don't see any in your tank there may still be in their millions spread out though the sand, rock and water column.
That very slight yellow tint of the water....


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Old 02/18/2016, 07:27 AM   #3146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
can you try the standard stuff? 24-8-16? That's more rich in Nitrogen.

If that works, then maybe the freshwater nitrogen food?
The stuff I had doesn't include metals in any significant amounts. So I'd shy away from adding something that does.
Fewer ingredients, fewer unknowns (but still plenty of those)

But yeah, if this is effective long term I'll see if I can test a higher N version as well, hopefully test what ingredient is having an effect and see if a more sane dose can be effective.


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Old 02/18/2016, 08:33 AM   #3147
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Can you run an ammonia test on that sample? Ammoniacal nitrogen is a common ingredient in fertilizers.

I do the I.T. at a fertilizer plant where we produce all manner of soluble and liquid fertilizers. I've picked up a lot of this sort of knowledge over the years.


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Old 02/19/2016, 06:57 PM   #3148
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Can you run an ammonia test on that sample? Ammoniacal nitrogen is a common ingredient in fertilizers.
My ammonia test kit seems to have wandered off, but yeah, what I added had 4% N, with a breakdown of 1.8% ammoniacal N, 2.2% urea.
I screwed up the tests somehow, contaminated all the beakers. Killed everything dino sized and larger in every beaker.
Back to the drawing board.
I did add a small dose of dino sand into my clean cultured 10 gal sandbed as suggested. Fingers crossed, hope it's established enough.


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Old 02/19/2016, 09:12 PM   #3149
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anybody know what kind of dip will kill ostreopsis? my tank is still squeaky clean but i have one SPS that's getting overwhelmed by the last few spots of dinos


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Old 02/19/2016, 10:19 PM   #3150
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You might look around for a hydrogen peroxide dip recipe, if you're willing to take some risk. Something like Coral RX might be safe, but I don't know how well it'd kill dinoflagellates. Companies generally keep their products' ingredients under wraps.


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