the secret to colorful,healthy corals....obvious to some,elusive to many

[sandipan.ece]

Originally Posted by DiscusHeckel

My measurable nitrates are between 2.5-5 ppm (Salifert) and measurable phosphates are between 0.024-0.046 mg/L (but are typically 0.046 mg/L) (Elos High Sensitivity). My alkalinity is at NSW (6.45 dKH-7.45 dKH). My corals seem to be at their happiest when alkalinity is at NSW levels.

I dose a product that contains organic nitrogen, organic carbon, inorganic phosphates, inorganic nitrates and organic phosphates. You can see plenty more pictures if you follow the links in my signature.

One of the most beautiful tank I have seen in a while! What is the product that you dose? Could you also share the dosing details please?

[DiscusHeckel]

Originally Posted by sandipan.ece

One of the most beautiful tank I have seen in a while! What is the product that you dose? Could you also share the dosing details please?

Thanks for your positive feedback. I use Tropic Marin NP-BACTO-BALANCE to export nutrients and feed my corals and heterotrophic bacteria at the same time. I do not use any GFO, but I use GAC passively. My current dose is 1.7 ml per day.

Cheers

Bülent

[hkgar]

Originally Posted by DiscusHeckel

Thanks for your positive feedback. I use Tropic Marin NP-BACTO-BALANCE to export nutrients and feed my corals and heterotrophic bacteria at the same time. I do not use any GFO, but I use GAC passively. My current dose is 1.7 ml per day.

Cheers

Bülent

Sadly, that Tropic Marin product is not available in the US, at least I can't find it.

[Big E]

Here ya go Gary......I've seen it widely available--------

http://www.aquacave.com/tropic-marin...ce-500-ml.html

Tropic Marin US if you need other help/info--

http://www.tropicmarin-usa.com/contact.html

[hkgar]

Originally Posted by Big E

Here ya go Gary......I've seen it widely available--------

http://www.aquacave.com/tropic-marin...ce-500-ml.html

Tropic Marin US if you need other help/info--

http://www.tropicmarin-usa.com/contact.html

Thanks for the update.

[ERIC85854]

Originally Posted by Big E

Here ya go Gary......I've seen it widely available--------

http://www.aquacave.com/tropic-marin...ce-500-ml.html

Tropic Marin US if you need other help/info--

http://www.tropicmarin-usa.com/contact.html

Information on it is vague. What is it? Carbon dosing?

[n8rad]

its a waste of $$ is what it is
Why do people keep buying these junk products when its been proven from countless TOTM's that high import, high export, and strong lighting is the recipe for success?

[DiscusHeckel]

Originally Posted by ERIC85854

Information on it is vague. What is it? Carbon dosing?

After hours of research and personal use of this product since March 2015, I have collated some useful information on it, which you can find in my Facebook notes.

[dz6t]

The true secret is that most if not all these TOTM tanks (mostly SPS dominated) grew those big SPS colonies from frags (aka aquacultured coral). Aquacultured coral is "assisted evolved" and more resilience than their wild "ancestors".

It is seldom work by throwing a bunch of wild colonies in the tank and hope for a TOTM display in long run. You will end up with a bunch of skeletons and lots $ down the drain.

[markalot]

Originally Posted by n8rad

its a waste of $$ is what it is
Why do people keep buying these junk products when its been proven from countless TOTM's that high import, high export, and strong lighting is the recipe for success?

Why do you see the product as anything more than an aid to high export? It's not magic, just one of many tools that can be used.

[bif24701]

Originally Posted by dz6t

The true secret is that most if not all these TOTM tanks (mostly SPS dominated) grew those big SPS colonies from frags (aka aquacultured coral). Aquacultured coral is "assisted evolved" and more resilience than their wild "ancestors".

It is seldom work by throwing a bunch of wild colonies in the tank and hope for a TOTM display in long run. You will end up with a bunch of skeletons and lots $ down the drain.

I agree here. Very good point.

I do see some value that in ensuring micro elements are equal to NSW. However that is done.


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[deputydog95]

Subscribed.

[bif24701]

I want to add to the discussion the video that BRS recently did about lighting.
https://youtu.be/62_FdPutmAQ

In light of some research I've been doing, threads that have appeared recently that I've taken part in, and this video I've concluded due to some of my colors the lighting in my system could be too intense for my nutrient levels.
Not limited by flow.
https://youtu.be/Pjn5wQUtEZI

I maintain ~8ppm NO3 and .03 PO4.

Before adjustments: Kessil AP700s @70%



After Kessil AP700 @50%


My PMK is 10" below the water line and AP700 is 8.5" above the water. I've also run two 60" ATIBlue Plus for 10 hours.

So far growth doesn't seem to be affected, in a good way, but colors have improved already.


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[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by dz6t

The true secret is that most if not all these TOTM tanks (mostly SPS dominated) grew those big SPS colonies from frags (aka aquacultured coral). Aquacultured coral is "assisted evolved" and more resilience than their wild "ancestors".

It is seldom work by throwing a bunch of wild colonies in the tank and hope for a TOTM display in long run. You will end up with a bunch of skeletons and lots $ down the drain.

Aquacultured SPS corals have not "evolved" at all. They are all genetically identical to the coral that was their "wild ancestor".
They can make small changes, like pigmentation, or changes to zooxanthellae density, or even total zooxanthellae clad exchanges, but that's not evolution. When we begin "breeding/sexually reproducing" these corals, then we can talk about how they are evolving. As of right now, all reproduction with these corals, in this hobby, is asexual. There is no mixing of genes through asexual reproduction. We are not seeing evolution in these corals.
Peace
EC

[karimwassef]

Well... yes and no.

Our understanding of genetics is constantly evolving and the recent discoveries point to two forms genetics presenting or manifesting. The first is hard encoded genes that are the primary formative genes. The second is epigenetics where gene expression (not the genes themselves) changes based on external influences.

I'm not an expert but basically, the genes of the organism already possess previously un-expressed characteristics that can be called upon to help it survive as conditions change.

That should exhibit in both sexual and asexual reproduction since the DNA is unchanged.

This is actually a rapidly growing field of study so we may be pioneering epigenetic expression in corals.

[Punchanello]

This thread = mind blown.

I'm a total noob but I understood all be basic concepts behind reef keeping. Nitrogen cycle, photosynthesis, nutrient export etc. I had assumed that only trial and error would help my thick head get around some of the concepts clearly and succinctly explained in this thread. Having read it almost cover to cover I really feel some of the trepidation ebbing away.

Thanks to the RC community for sharing so many great insights.

[Punchanello]

Just one question to clarify and confirm- Assuming the organic nutrients are such that the coral are healthy and thriving, the job of your export methods is to remove the inorganic nutrients (or stop organic nutrients breaking down in the tank). One of the side effects if this is not happening could be unwanted algae growth(?).

So in addition to exporting inorganic nutrients, an efficient algae-scrubber could also out compete the algae in a DT?

[karimwassef]

yes.

[dz6t]

Originally Posted by elegance coral

Aquacultured SPS corals have not "evolved" at all. They are all genetically identical to the coral that was their "wild ancestor".

They can make small changes, like pigmentation, or changes to zooxanthellae density, or even total zooxanthellae clad exchanges, but that's not evolution. When we begin "breeding/sexually reproducing" these corals, then we can talk about how they are evolving. As of right now, all reproduction with these corals, in this hobby, is asexual. There is no mixing of genes through asexual reproduction. We are not seeing evolution in these corals.

Peace

EC

http://www.aims.gov.au/docs/media/fe...c-modification


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[dz6t]

More
http://m.pnas.org/content/112/8/2307.full


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[dz6t]

And more
http://www.theinertia.com/environmen...s-super-coral/


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[karimwassef]

Nice

[EMeyer]

Those are interesting ongoing projects, none of which has anything to do with the claim that aquacultured corals in the hobby are "selected" or "evolved". As was correctly pointed out, all propagation in the hobby is by asexual means. Every coral in a hobbyist tank is genetically identical to a coral that was pulled out of the ocean sometime within the last few decades.

[tenurepro]

Originally Posted by EMeyer

Those are interesting ongoing projects, none of which has anything to do with the claim that aquacultured corals in the hobby are "selected" or "evolved". As was correctly pointed out, all propagation in the hobby is by asexual means. Every coral in a hobbyist tank is genetically identical to a coral that was pulled out of the ocean sometime within the last few decades.

This is a bit off topic and mods feel free to move or delete this as you see fit, but, @EMeyer I politely disagree, as I discuss below.

1) the assumption that clonal reproduction does not lead to genetic change / evolution is not correct. There are many animals, plants and prokaryotes that asexually reproduce, yet they still experience evolution (=genetic change over time). Case in point; antibiotic resistant bacteria; they 'evolved' resistance despite being clonal.

Mutation is always occurring. Mutations arising in coral polyps kept in captivity can spread and fix. Every time a polyp duplicates its DNA prior to cell division, there is a chance of genetic mutations arising because of errors in DNA replication the escape repair. A polyp with a new mutation, will clone this new mutation into daughter polyps and so forth. Because captivity does not stop mutation, it does not stop evolution.

Have a look at this for an example of evolution in a colonal organism
News story - https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...tic-resistance
Peer reviewed paper
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/353/6304/1147

2) the idea that the 'gene pool' of aquacultured corals and wild corals are identical is also unlikely to be correct. Imagine a specific species of coral in the wild. Let's call it species x. Species X likely contains a substantial amount of genetic diversity; differences in genetics between individual and populations of the same species.

This study on an Acropora suggests that genetic diversity is Huge
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4831158/ ; there is an average of approximately 1 genetic difference every 60 bases of DNA between any two individuals chosen at random. For humans, it's about 1 difference in every 1000 to 2000 bases.

So now imagine a species that has a lot of genetic diversity; a few collectors collect a small number of frags; these frags will have a small proportion of genetic diversity that was initially found in the species (= a population bottleneck). Now imagine that these few frags are now put into a tank.
Some of the frags may have some specific mutations that allow them to survive aquaculture for some reason or another. This amounts to 'artificial selection' which changes the genetic makeup of the aquacultured population.
So the initial collection bottleneck combined with artificial selection plus subsequent mutations in the aquacultured population can all lead to genetic differences between aquacultured and wild populations. The magnitude of these difference may be very small or very large, depending on the levels of standing genetic diversity in wild populations, the size and frequency of the collection bottlenecks, strength of artificial selection and generation time in captivity.

Hope this post offers a few thoughts to consider. For the people inclined to disagree; please resist the temptation to send a quick angry reply. Instead, read and dwell over the arguments presented, and try to think of counter evidence that support your views.

Best,
t


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[karimwassef]

DNA is amazing. The manifestation of that DNA is situational and you're only seeing those traits that have been triggered, but the data storage that is latent is amazing.

They were able to take a chicken and by triggering latent strings - got it to grow teeth - like its ancestors had...