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Unread 05/31/2008, 09:43 PM   #1
jansenwrasse
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Randy's avitar ...

Is it
BF3=O?


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Unread 05/31/2008, 10:16 PM   #2
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im going to take a stab in the dark, but its a phosphate ion?




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Unread 05/31/2008, 11:53 PM   #3
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It's a phosphate ion. PO4---


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Unread 06/01/2008, 06:07 AM   #4
Randy Holmes-Farley
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Yes, phosphate is my life, both with all of the reefing issues with it, but also professionally. Well, a good part of it, anyway. My biggest professional success is the co-invention of Renagel and Renvela, phosphate binders used by people who have hyperphosphatemia (mostly kidney disease patients).

These products bind phosphate in the GI tract of people, prevent dietary phosphate from being absorbed.

www.renagel.com
www.renvela.com


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Unread 06/01/2008, 07:14 AM   #5
jansenwrasse
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I would have guessed it but I was looking for a balanced ion.

So what is the 3- phosphate ion commonly bound to in human digestive tracts?


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Unread 06/01/2008, 07:31 AM   #6
Randy Holmes-Farley
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At the pH present in the GI tract (about pH 3-7, depending on the place), phosphate is mostly present as HPO4-- and H2PO4-. It is mostly not bound to anything without a binder being added. I believe that my product mostly binds HPO4--. My product is a crosslinked polymer, like an ion exchange resin, that is optimized for phosphate binding under these conditions. It is very good there, but not very good in seawater where the competing ions are much more prevalent (especially sulfate and chloride) and the phosphate is present at far, far lower concentration in tank water than in your small intestine (about 500 ppm).

The avatar is a bit misleading as it shows a clear double bond and three single bonds. All of the bonds are equal and in between single and double bonds in PO4---, but it is not easy to show a mixed bond in a picture.


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Unread 06/01/2008, 07:41 AM   #7
jansenwrasse
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Very interesting ... So the intestinal tract works like a RO membrane and your chemical in a way makes the ions to large to make the transition over the membrane?

hmmm.. I guess I know what to do with all of my old Al3O2... Just kidding


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Unread 06/01/2008, 07:58 AM   #8
Randy Holmes-Farley
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Yes, the particles in my product are on the order of 100-300 microns when wet, so are not taken up at all.

FWIW, aluminum oxide works really well as an oral phosphate binder, but there are big concerns about aluminum toxicity, and it is hardly ever used any more. Our main competitors on the market right now are calcium and lanthanum, which both form nonabsorbable calcium and lanthanum phosphates.


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Last edited by Randy Holmes-Farley; 06/01/2008 at 08:04 AM.
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Unread 06/01/2008, 08:38 PM   #9
black_majik
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Your the first aquarist I know Randy that loves phosphates !

While we are on phosphate and human body talk, how does nitrates help with chest pain?


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Unread 06/02/2008, 05:32 AM   #10
Randy Holmes-Farley
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I guess I'm just special.

The nitrates used for heart problems are actually organic compounds that incorporate nitrate groups. They expand the size of the arteries to the heart. That increases blood flow to the heart and reduces chest pain.

Here's an example, isosorbide dinitrate:




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Unread 06/02/2008, 07:29 AM   #11
jansenwrasse
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Randy in reef keeping [PO4]3- people use phosphate removers on a constant basis. Adenosine tri-phosphate has 3 central P's. With people trying to lower phosphates to undetectable levels wouldn't this hinder growth more than having a [PO4]3- levels of .3ppm? ( I have not taken Bio chem yet still doing Organic) But with more "flesh" on a coral and fish wouldn't more ATP be needed for respiration?

It seems like the more you learn the more confusing some things get. Like the term Alkalinity in reef keeping, I remember testing for one thing and thinking that was it, the be all and end all was the results of the test kit. Or recently the "fact" that GFO removes organics... Come on now how much more vague can one statement get!

Thanks Randy!


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Unread 06/02/2008, 08:48 AM   #12
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yes jansen you are right, people often forget that ATP and DNA, RNA, these very molecules important for growth and life all contain phosphate. so all organisms must get phosphate from somewhere, and that is either through seawater or from ingestion of foods and subsequent breakdown of food components.


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Unread 06/02/2008, 11:13 AM   #13
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toaster77 makes a very good point. most people don't even realize!

jansen, the more we learn, the more we know there's more to learn. I wonder if that's why this hobby is so addicting...

I like this discussion. Randy, what are the advantages of using Renagel/Renvela over the calcium and lanthanum alternatives?


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Unread 06/02/2008, 12:26 PM   #14
Randy Holmes-Farley
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I like this discussion. Randy, what are the advantages of using Renagel/Renvela over the calcium and lanthanum alternatives?

Discussion of an approved drug is very limited, so I'll just copy and past an answer from our web site:

http://www.renagel.com/healthcare/di...hc_disease.asp

About the Disease

There are over 300,000 stage 5 CKD dialysis patients in the United States. [1] These patients have limited or no kidney function and depend on dialysis, along with dietary restrictions and phosphate binders to minimize serum phosphorus. Hyperphosphatemia has been shown to significantly increase patient mortality and morbidity. [2] Phosphorus control is critical to the quality of care for dialysis patients.

Hyperphosphatemia is managed through dialysis, diet modification and utilization of phosphate binders to inhibit absorption of dietary phosphorus. Due to the limitations of dialysis and the challenges of dietary phosphorus restriction, almost all dialysis patients rely on a phosphate binder to reduce phosphorus absorption and prevent hyperphosphatemia. While effective in controlling phosphorus, traditional phosphate binders may lead to problems such as increased incidence of hypercalcemic episodes or metal toxicity affecting the brain, bones and other body systems. [3,4]

Because stage 5 CKD patients have systems that are essentially “closed,” accumulation of calcium and metals is a greater concern for these patients who do not have the capacity to excrete these elements. When evaluating phosphate binders, the consequences of calcium and metal accumulation should be considered. The intake of calcium and metal in the form of a binder presents one more challenge to systems that are already compromised.


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Unread 06/02/2008, 12:31 PM   #15
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Or recently the "fact" that GFO removes organics...

I expect it does. Do you think it doesn't?

All organisms need phosphorus. But many can get adequate phosphorus even with the levels very low, since they have evolved in the ocean where surface phosphorus levels are very low. You do not want 0.0000000 ppm phosphate in your tank. But 0.005 ppm may be OK for many organisms, especially those which consume organic foods.

Phosphate does several potentially undesirable things when elevated, which can include inhibiting calcification by organisms, and overdriving algae and even possibly zoox, browning up corals.

I discuss many of these issues here:

Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php


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Unread 06/02/2008, 02:35 PM   #16
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randy makes a good point, that yes most organisms would probably be ok with low levels of phosphate in the media as many cells have dedicated phosphate transporters to import phosphate from the extracellular environment. but for certain 0.0000 ppm phosphate would not be good


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Unread 06/02/2008, 05:35 PM   #17
black_majik
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Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley


I guess I'm just special.

The nitrates used for heart problems are actually organic compounds that incorporate nitrate groups. They expand the size of the arteries to the heart. That increases blood flow to the heart and reduces chest pain.

Here's an example, isosorbide dinitrate:

Interesting ! Thanks.


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Unread 06/02/2008, 06:18 PM   #18
Randy Holmes-Farley
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Happy Reefing.


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Unread 06/02/2008, 10:55 PM   #19
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I spend most my time eliminating phos. and Randy spends his time creating it. Wow. The difference of life on land and under the seas


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Unread 06/02/2008, 11:15 PM   #20
2thdeekay
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Actually, Dr. Randy make Lifesavers, I think with rainbow colors? --but maybe I'm the one confused.


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Unread 06/03/2008, 10:17 AM   #21
jansenwrasse
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Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Or recently the "fact" that GFO removes organics...

I expect it does. Do you think it doesn't?
I am sure that it does, It was actually a typo I meant GAC, but what I meant was the term "Organics". It is such a HUGE broad spectrum of compounds, that it is almost misleading. But in justice to the term labeling which organics GAC would remove would be such a long list ...

Sorry for the confusion


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Unread 06/03/2008, 12:17 PM   #22
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I am hugely impressed and humbled Randy that you have the time to help us! Thanks for everything!

Now, a few questions for you regarding phosphate removers and the reef aquarium. Can you over dose a phosphate control media? The Phos-Lock product that I have says to use 1 tbs per 20 gal of water. Can I use more and would it help or hurt? Also, I suspect that my PO4 problem is a remnant of having started my reef with treated Tap(well) water from my home. I switched over to RO water a few months back but I am sure that there is still some PO4 left as I have not yet changed 100% of the water my 6 gal per week water change regimen. I also recently switched to halide lighting and am battling green hair algae. To remedy this I have cut down on feeding, increased skimming and taken steps to lower my nitrates as well as added PhosLock to my filter. I have also acclimated a Lawnmower Blennie and am considering a Sea Hare to help with my OCD. Anything else I can do to insure my sanity? Thanks again.

Dave


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Unread 06/03/2008, 12:33 PM   #23
Randy Holmes-Farley
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Thanks.

You can overdose binders to an aquarium if you drive phosphate too low, and that does appear to have happened to a number of people. As long as phosphate stays elevated, I do not think you can overdose (at least with GFO). Aluminum-based binders can be overdosed in ways that have nothing to do with phosphate, but rather aluminum problems.

So what it takes to overdose a 100 gallon aquarium at 1 ppm phosphate is far more than what it takes to overdose a 100 gallon aquarium that starts at 0.02 ppm phosphate.

Also, I think many soft corals experience problems of low nutrients before many hard corals do.


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