Regal Angel Primer

[scuzy]

I'll take the chances on ttm


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[MondoBongo]

Originally Posted by Salty150

You don't have to use the TTM...

Especially on these very delicate fish.

I've used TTM on a range of fish, including my OSFF pair, typically considered one of the more delicate fish, without issue.

They've all tolerated very well. A quiet place and dim lights go a long way to helping keep stress low.

[Fin Mike]

OSFF pair?

[NYCEnglish]

Orange Spotted File Fish - as in my pic

QUOTE=Fin Mike;24489267]OSFF pair?[/QUOTE]

[alton]

Regals are not really delicate, the last regal I sold to Minh spent months in a friends overflow because one of his Tangs kept chasing it in there. He probably lived in five different tanks before Minh got him. I worry more about collection practices, they seem to be the issue with these and all Angels.

[Salty150]

Originally Posted by scuzy

I'll take the chances on ttm

Of course, because it is not YOU that has to go through it.

You aren't the one:

1. Taken from your natural habitat and thrown in a collection container
2. Taken out of that collection container and thrown in a holding tank
3. Taken out of that holding tank and thrown in a plastic bag and shipped to a fish store
4. Taken out of the plastic bag and thrown into another holding tank
5. Taken out of that holding tank and thrown into another plastic bag
6. Taken out of that plastic bag and thrown into some dip solution
7. Taken out of that dip solution and thrown into someones QT tank.

And you want to then do the same thing 3 more times in a TTM?

Gee, I wonder why these fish don't make it...

[alton]

Man Salty that is harsh, try using the word placed versus thrown? It sounds much better. I like using small plastic containers to transfer fish, nets only as a last resort.

[MondoBongo]

Originally Posted by Salty150

Of course, because it is not YOU that has to go through it.

You aren't the one:

1. Taken from your natural habitat and thrown in a collection container
2. Taken out of that collection container and thrown in a holding tank
3. Taken out of that holding tank and thrown in a plastic bag and shipped to a fish store
4. Taken out of the plastic bag and thrown into another holding tank
5. Taken out of that holding tank and thrown into another plastic bag
6. Taken out of that plastic bag and thrown into some dip solution
7. Taken out of that dip solution and thrown into someones QT tank.

And you want to then do the same thing 3 more times in a TTM?

Gee, I wonder why these fish don't make it...

congratulations. you've just made an excellent argument for ending this hobby entirely.

[ThRoewer]

Originally Posted by scuzy

What would you use for ich then?

Hyposalinity always worked like a charm for me - ich goes away and the fish are not stressed.

Later, when the fish is stabilized, healthy and eating well you can also do a round of tank transfers to be sure it is ich free.

[scuzy]

So far with ttm I have a higher survival rates than with any other preventative treatment for me.

[Salty150]

Originally Posted by ThRoewer

Hyposalinity always worked like a charm for me - ich goes away and the fish are not stressed.

Later, when the fish is stabilized, healthy and eating well you can also do a round of tank transfers to be sure it is ich free.

Exactly.

From Advanced Aquarist - Marine Fish Acclimation Procedures:

Marine teleost fish (bony reef fish) readily adjust to a rapid drop in salinity without any apparent ill effects. Place fish directly into a salinity of 12-14ppt. Monitor the pH daily as this parameter has a tendency to fall in dilute saltwater.

Fish should remain in hyposaline conditions for several weeks. Marine teleost fish need more time to adjust to an increase in salinity than a decrease. Raise the salinity a few points a day until it matches your display aquarium before moving the fish to its final destination.

Contrary to the commonly held belief that a salinity lower than natural seawater is stressful to marine teleost fish (bony reef fish), reducing the gradient (difference in salinity) between the internal fluids of fish and the surrounding ambient water alleviates water and ion disturbance (Wedemeyer, 1996. Carneiro &Urbinati, 2001). Fish held in water that is close to isotonic (the salinity of the surrounding ambient water is close to matching the internal fluids of the fish) have increased stress resistance (Lim et. al, 2000). These fish also display a significantly lower mortality rate at 7 days post shipment.

I suggest placing marine teleost fish directly into a hyposaline environment during the acclimation and quarantine period (Lowry, 2004). A salinity of 12ppt (not Specific Gravity) is close to isotonic for bony reef fish. I prefer keeping the salinity at 12 to 14ppt for thirty days or more. The salinity can then be raised a few points a day until it is close to natural seawater, or matches your display aquarium.

Although studies indicate that at least some species of marine teleost fish grow faster in a salinity of 14ppt than at 35ppt (natural seawater) (Lambert, Dutil, and Munro, 1994), I do not suggest maintaining hyposaline conditions indefinitely. Do not subject marine invertebrates, sharks, rayfish, "live rock," or "live sand" to hyposaline conditions.

Hyposalinity assists marine teleost fish in recovery five ways:

Helps control external parasites
Helps fish to recover osmotic balance more quickly
Helps fish that are injured or have lost mucus protection to maintain osmoregulatory balance.
Conserves energy that can be used to recover normal homeostasis and for disease resistance
Helps fish to recover feeding behaviors more quickly
The most obvious benefit of hyposalinity therapy to marine fish, while acclimating to captivity, is that it is a proactive approach to dealing with external parasites. However, there are other significant benefits for marine teleost fish.

Osmoregulatory dysfunction is an inherent part of stress in fish. Reducing the salinity gradient between the internal fluids of the fish and the surrounding ambient water helps them to recover osmotic balance more quickly.

Injuries are a common occurrence during transport and handling. Wounds or compromises to the mucus/scale/skin barrier make osmoregulation more difficult and costly energy-wise. In marine fish, osmotic pressure can cause fluids to leak from wounds into the water. Reducing the salinity of the water decreases the osmotic pressure and loss of fluids from wounds or compromises the mucus layer.

Marine teleost fish typically consume 25 to 50% of their metabolic energy in the process of osmoregulation. Conserving metabolic energy makes more available for other processes such as regaining normal homeostasis, diseases resistance, etc.

Since osmoregulatory balance is a factor influencing feeding behaviors, it is reasonable to assume that fish that quickly recover osmotic balance will resume feeding sooner. Fish should regain osmotic balance more quickly in hyposaline conditions.

[Dmorty217]

Originally Posted by scuzy

So far with ttm I have a higher survival rates than with any other preventative treatment for me.

TTM is the least stressful and by far the most effective in treating ich, Couple that with PP and formalin dips too boot between transfers and your fish are disease free (usually) in 2 short weeks

[Dmorty217]

Originally Posted by Salty150

Exactly.

From Advanced Aquarist - Marine Fish Acclimation Procedures:

Marine teleost fish (bony reef fish) readily adjust to a rapid drop in salinity without any apparent ill effects. Place fish directly into a salinity of 12-14ppt. Monitor the pH daily as this parameter has a tendency to fall in dilute saltwater.

Fish should remain in hyposaline conditions for several weeks. Marine teleost fish need more time to adjust to an increase in salinity than a decrease. Raise the salinity a few points a day until it matches your display aquarium before moving the fish to its final destination.

Contrary to the commonly held belief that a salinity lower than natural seawater is stressful to marine teleost fish (bony reef fish), reducing the gradient (difference in salinity) between the internal fluids of fish and the surrounding ambient water alleviates water and ion disturbance (Wedemeyer, 1996. Carneiro &Urbinati, 2001). Fish held in water that is close to isotonic (the salinity of the surrounding ambient water is close to matching the internal fluids of the fish) have increased stress resistance (Lim et. al, 2000). These fish also display a significantly lower mortality rate at 7 days post shipment.

I suggest placing marine teleost fish directly into a hyposaline environment during the acclimation and quarantine period (Lowry, 2004). A salinity of 12ppt (not Specific Gravity) is close to isotonic for bony reef fish. I prefer keeping the salinity at 12 to 14ppt for thirty days or more. The salinity can then be raised a few points a day until it is close to natural seawater, or matches your display aquarium.

Although studies indicate that at least some species of marine teleost fish grow faster in a salinity of 14ppt than at 35ppt (natural seawater) (Lambert, Dutil, and Munro, 1994), I do not suggest maintaining hyposaline conditions indefinitely. Do not subject marine invertebrates, sharks, rayfish, "live rock," or "live sand" to hyposaline conditions.

Hyposalinity assists marine teleost fish in recovery five ways:

Helps control external parasites
Helps fish to recover osmotic balance more quickly
Helps fish that are injured or have lost mucus protection to maintain osmoregulatory balance.
Conserves energy that can be used to recover normal homeostasis and for disease resistance
Helps fish to recover feeding behaviors more quickly
The most obvious benefit of hyposalinity therapy to marine fish, while acclimating to captivity, is that it is a proactive approach to dealing with external parasites. However, there are other significant benefits for marine teleost fish.

Osmoregulatory dysfunction is an inherent part of stress in fish. Reducing the salinity gradient between the internal fluids of the fish and the surrounding ambient water helps them to recover osmotic balance more quickly.

Injuries are a common occurrence during transport and handling. Wounds or compromises to the mucus/scale/skin barrier make osmoregulation more difficult and costly energy-wise. In marine fish, osmotic pressure can cause fluids to leak from wounds into the water. Reducing the salinity of the water decreases the osmotic pressure and loss of fluids from wounds or compromises the mucus layer.

Marine teleost fish typically consume 25 to 50% of their metabolic energy in the process of osmoregulation. Conserving metabolic energy makes more available for other processes such as regaining normal homeostasis, diseases resistance, etc.

Since osmoregulatory balance is a factor influencing feeding behaviors, it is reasonable to assume that fish that quickly recover osmotic balance will resume feeding sooner. Fish should regain osmotic balance more quickly in hyposaline conditions.

This is nice and all but hypo is one of the most difficult to do CORRECTLY for ich. The second that the salinity rises above the 1.008 you start over at day 1. Also bringing the fish out of hypo and back to 1.024-.026 is days long and can be stressful to the fish, thus weakening the immune system and causing other issues that may not of been there before. TTM is much easier to use and more effective for treating ich

[Salty150]

Originally Posted by Dmorty217

This is nice and all but hypo is one of the most difficult to do CORRECTLY for ich. The second that the salinity rises above the 1.008 you start over at day 1. Also bringing the fish out of hypo and back to 1.024-.026 is days long and can be stressful to the fish, thus weakening the immune system and causing other issues that may not of been there before. TTM is much easier to use and more effective for treating ich

Do you have any studies - like the ones he mentions in his article - that say that TTM is more effective?

[Dmorty217]

Originally Posted by Salty150

Do you have any studies - like the ones he mentions in his article - that say that TTM is more effective?

More effective may be the wrong verbage to use. Easier to use for sure, thus making it "more effective". I have used hypo before and I use TTM ( also use CP for ich too) Have used both with expensive fish (Bandit, Conspicuous, Griffis, ect) and TTM is the preferred choice

[Salty150]

Originally Posted by Dmorty217

More effective may be the wrong verbage to use. Easier to use for sure, thus making it "more effective"

As long as we are on "verbage"...lol

Easier for you, maybe, but not on the fish.

In any event - our concern should be with the fish and not what is easier for us.

I think it is VERY easy to forget that these are live, feeling, animals that we entrust into our care - and that makes it our responsibility to do everything we can to make sure their "care" is as stress-free as possible.

I submit, and so does the article and research posted above, that putting the fish into one tank and keeping the salinity low for awhile is much easier on the fish than not only transferring them to four different tanks - but doing dips in between.

If people want an "easy" hobby - they need to find a different one.

[alton]

It looks like I am going to have to make a decision to re-home my larger Regal or smaller regal. Since the down sizing of my 300 to my 180 it has become evident that the two will not pair nor even get along. Instinct says to sell the larger one and try to pair the smaller one with a new one? But with the larger one in the tank he is king and everybody else falls inline. If I take him out does the larger flame angel become the bully or does the black tang now take over and all heck break out? Any suggestions would be appreciated

[ThRoewer]

Originally Posted by alton

It looks like I am going to have to make a decision to re-home my larger Regal or smaller regal. Since the down sizing of my 300 to my 180 it has become evident that the two will not pair nor even get along. Instinct says to sell the larger one and try to pair the smaller one with a new one? But with the larger one in the tank he is king and everybody else falls inline. If I take him out does the larger flame angel become the bully or does the black tang now take over and all heck break out? Any suggestions would be appreciated

Is the smaller one not accepting the dominance of the larger or is the larger one attacking the smaller one despite it being submissive?

[OrionN]

Alton,
The fish you sold to me is doing really well. Do you want to trade that one for your small one? If seem from what you wrote earlier that the small one you have is pretty feisty. The one that I have may be much more amendable to pair with your larger one.
I still have that one in my refugium, and she is getting fat.

[alton]

Originally Posted by ThRoewer

Is the smaller one not accepting the dominance of the larger or is the larger one attacking the smaller one despite it being submissive?

The only time they take a break is eating together. Sometimes the larger one will swim up to the smaller one and the smaller will turn sideways in submission. But for the rest of the time it is a 6' dash across the tank, around the coral, and under the rocks chase. The smaller one had a nice slice on its tail yesterday again.

[alton]

Minh I added the one I sold you to my 300 when I first got it to try and create a Harem and both small and large would not accept it.

[LobsterOfJustice]

Originally Posted by Salty150

Doesn't TTM stress these fish?



Moving this fish 4 times, 1 time every 3 days, is STRESSFUL.

Move the fish in the morning before the lights come on. Half the time they don't even wake up.

[ThRoewer]

Originally Posted by alton

The only time they take a break is eating together. Sometimes the larger one will swim up to the smaller one and the smaller will turn sideways in submission. But for the rest of the time it is a 6' dash across the tank, around the coral, and under the rocks chase. The smaller one had a nice slice on its tail yesterday again.

Looks like the larger one is the problem.
What is the size difference between them?
Who was added first?

[alton]

They have been together for 3+ years, the larger was first. I added the second one as a juvenile 4 months later?

[ThRoewer]

Originally Posted by alton

Minh I added the one I sold you to my 300 when I first got it to try and create a Harem and both small and large would not accept it.

From what I found so far, Red Sea or Indian Ocean Yellow Belly Regals don't form harems, but rather monogamous pairs. That may be one reason for

Originally Posted by alton

They have been together for 3+ years, the larger was first. I added the second one as a juvenile 4 months later?

Was that picture from the larger tank? How did they get along there?