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Unread 02/13/2019, 07:33 AM   #1
emilese
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Is this acro dying?

I added a couple SPS acro frags to my tank almost two weeks ago. They seem to be acclimating well but today, one acro frag got knocked over twice (once by a snail, the other time I'm not sure).

Now, the frag has lost some color at it's top. Do you think it's dying (STN or RTN)?

I've attached 2 pics - the before and after.


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Unread 02/13/2019, 07:39 AM   #2
emilese
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Sorry, I thought I attached the pics. Let me try this again.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Acro 1.jpg (66.9 KB, 141 views)
File Type: jpg Acro 1 - after.jpg (54.9 KB, 145 views)
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Unread 02/13/2019, 09:42 AM   #3
RXCoral
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Looks like it


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Unread 02/13/2019, 03:25 PM   #4
murphreef
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most likely an issue with you alkalinity


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Unread 02/13/2019, 06:47 PM   #5
emilese
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphreef View Post
most likely an issue with you alkalinity
Here's my latest readings:

SG: 1.026
Alk: 11.7dkh
Cal: 415
Mag: 1300
Phosphate: 0.02

The alk is a little high but otherwise, everything is good. My alkalinity usually runs on the higher side due to the Red Sea Coral Pro Salt I use. The only thing that happened was the frag falling over a couple times. I don't even think it was that long before I put it back in place. Just trying to figure out why it's dying.


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Unread 02/14/2019, 02:30 PM   #6
bfortune76
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I agree, looks like alkalinity is off and 11.7 is pretty high! How are your nutrients NO3 and PO4? If you have low nutrients and high alkalinity that can cause RTN in my experience. If your fresh mixed salt is mixing high and you cannot get a better matched salt you can use muriatic acid to lower it. I dose 1ml muriatic acid per 5 gallon bucket of of instant ocean to get my alkalinity to match my levels and an airstone over night to get the PH back up but I also dose 2 part and shoot for the 8.4dkh range.


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Unread 02/14/2019, 04:22 PM   #7
Daddi0
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Could be a growth tip, or the polyps are just retracted in the second photo - showing more flesh.
Cheers! Mark


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Unread 02/15/2019, 10:57 AM   #8
emilese
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfortune76 View Post
I agree, looks like alkalinity is off and 11.7 is pretty high! How are your nutrients NO3 and PO4? If you have low nutrients and high alkalinity that can cause RTN in my experience. If your fresh mixed salt is mixing high and you cannot get a better matched salt you can use muriatic acid to lower it. I dose 1ml muriatic acid per 5 gallon bucket of of instant ocean to get my alkalinity to match my levels and an airstone over night to get the PH back up but I also dose 2 part and shoot for the 8.4dkh range.
I do have low nutrients as my NO3 is under 5ppm on the API test kit. I might switch to a better Nitrate test kit as I'm not certain the API is that accurate (IMHO).

I agree that 11.7 dkh is high and I think it's in part due to the Red Sea Coral Salt Pro that I use. That salt is high in Alk. I don't want to use muriatic acid to lower it. I may just let it lower in time.

I no longer think it's dying as it has been looking better - gaining it's color back. I've also been dosing to bring my magnesium and calcium higher.

Thanks for the suggestion though, I do appreciate it.


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Unread 02/15/2019, 10:58 AM   #9
emilese
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddi0 View Post
Could be a growth tip, or the polyps are just retracted in the second photo - showing more flesh.
Cheers! Mark
Thanks, I wonder if that is it as it has been looking better - gaining it's color back. I'll just keep monitoring it.

Miles


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Unread 02/15/2019, 12:26 PM   #10
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I am sure if you keep your alk at those levels all your corals present and future will die.....


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Unread 02/15/2019, 09:59 PM   #11
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I'm not sure I'd go that far, but a lot of us have noted acro damage from the combination of relatively high alkalinity and very low PO4 and/or NO3. 20 parts per billion PO4 and really low NO3 would certainly qualify as really low nutrients.

But it's generally not high alkalinity in and of itself that tends to cause bleaching in acros; there's at least 2 reefers that I know of in the area that run alkalinity > 12dKH and have fantastic tanks. But they also run high nutrient levels - around 300 ppb PO4 and around 5 ppm NO3. One way to get those higher nutrient levels is feed coral foods, another way is keep a fairly high fish load.

And I should also mention that acros definitely do not like rapid swings in alkalinity, so if you choose the route of lower alk (ca. ~ 8 dKH) and low nutrients, you'd definitely want that to happen over perhaps a week or so.


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Unread 02/16/2019, 03:30 AM   #12
emilese
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphreef View Post
I am sure if you keep your alk at those levels all your corals present and future will die.....
I agree with you that the alk that high with low nutrients is not good. I want to lower the alk but, the problem is that I don't think I get muriatic here in Taiwan. And if I could, I'm uncomfortable using it as things could go bad real quick if I don't get it right. I'm hoping the alk will go down in time.

Do you have a method you could suggest to lower the alk without using muriatic acid?

Thanks,
Miles


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Unread 02/16/2019, 03:32 AM   #13
emilese
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkeller_nc View Post
I'm not sure I'd go that far, but a lot of us have noted acro damage from the combination of relatively high alkalinity and very low PO4 and/or NO3. 20 parts per billion PO4 and really low NO3 would certainly qualify as really low nutrients.

But it's generally not high alkalinity in and of itself that tends to cause bleaching in acros; there's at least 2 reefers that I know of in the area that run alkalinity > 12dKH and have fantastic tanks. But they also run high nutrient levels - around 300 ppb PO4 and around 5 ppm NO3. One way to get those higher nutrient levels is feed coral foods, another way is keep a fairly high fish load.

And I should also mention that acros definitely do not like rapid swings in alkalinity, so if you choose the route of lower alk (ca. ~ 8 dKH) and low nutrients, you'd definitely want that to happen over perhaps a week or so.
I've been trying to increase the nutrients by feeding the corals and fish more. I also moved that acro frag higher on my rockwork to see if that will help.

Thanks for the advice!


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Unread 02/16/2019, 03:38 AM   #14
emilese
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I also just picked up the Red Sea Alk Pro test kit as I ran out of the reagent for my Hanna Alk tester and the reagent will probably not be here for another week.

Does anyone else have trouble using the Read Sea Alk Pro test kit? I'm having a hard time matching the color of my test vial to the test card. I can't tell if it is saying my alkalinity is 9.8 or 11.1

Anyone else have an issue like this?


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Unread 02/16/2019, 05:23 AM   #15
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I had trouble differentiating the color with the Red Sea alk test, so I switched to the Hanna alk checker, no problem reading that as well as the ULR phos. Although I still use Red Sea for calcium, mag, and nitrate once weekly.


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Unread 02/16/2019, 08:17 AM   #16
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Any acid will lower the alkalinity in seawater. If it's an acid with a counterion that is non-volatile, that reduction will be permanent. If it's an acid with a volatile counter-ion, the reduction will be temporary. An example of that last category is carbonic acid (i.e. "sparkling water") - there will be a dip in alkalinity and pH when it is added, but as the carbon dioxide that's the counter-ion in carbonic acid gets off-gassed, the alkalinity will come back up.

The remaining acids (ones with non-volatile counter-ions) can be further divided into two categories: mineral acids, and organic acids. Examples of mineral acids are hydrochloric and sulfuric; examples of common organic acids are vinegar (acetic acid) and citric acid.

For a reef tank, the issue with using organic acids is that you're essentially "carbon dosing" the seawater/tank, which might not be desirable if you're trying to increase nutrient levels.

So that leaves us with the mineral acids. Fortunately, seawater already contains the counter ions to hydrochloric and sulfuric acids in abundance, so there's no chance of a toxic reaction from the counter ion itself.

So, based on your comment about hydrochloric (muriatic) acid being difficult to obtain in Taiwan, I'd check to see if you can obtain sulfuric acid. It's typically sold as "battery acid". By the way - presuming there's no law against sales of hydrochloric acid to the public in Taiwan, another place to check for it would be a pool maintenance supply store - concentrated hydrochloric is typically used for pH control in chlorinated pools.


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Unread 02/16/2019, 05:21 PM   #17
emilese
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkeller_nc View Post
Any acid will lower the alkalinity in seawater. If it's an acid with a counterion that is non-volatile, that reduction will be permanent. If it's an acid with a volatile counter-ion, the reduction will be temporary. An example of that last category is carbonic acid (i.e. "sparkling water") - there will be a dip in alkalinity and pH when it is added, but as the carbon dioxide that's the counter-ion in carbonic acid gets off-gassed, the alkalinity will come back up.

The remaining acids (ones with non-volatile counter-ions) can be further divided into two categories: mineral acids, and organic acids. Examples of mineral acids are hydrochloric and sulfuric; examples of common organic acids are vinegar (acetic acid) and citric acid.

For a reef tank, the issue with using organic acids is that you're essentially "carbon dosing" the seawater/tank, which might not be desirable if you're trying to increase nutrient levels.

So that leaves us with the mineral acids. Fortunately, seawater already contains the counter ions to hydrochloric and sulfuric acids in abundance, so there's no chance of a toxic reaction from the counter ion itself.

So, based on your comment about hydrochloric (muriatic) acid being difficult to obtain in Taiwan, I'd check to see if you can obtain sulfuric acid. It's typically sold as "battery acid". By the way - presuming there's no law against sales of hydrochloric acid to the public in Taiwan, another place to check for it would be a pool maintenance supply store - concentrated hydrochloric is typically used for pH control in chlorinated pools.
Wow, great information! Thank you! I will check to see what is available here that I might be able to use to bring my alkalinity down. I'm also thinking of switching my salt.


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Unread 02/16/2019, 05:54 PM   #18
dkeller_nc
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You might want to read through this recent thread on the Reef Chemistry forum. In particular, Gary (HKGar) posted a helpful table with tested parameters for various salt mixes. One caution about interpreting this table; there's a pretty good bet that the larger volume salt mixes like Instant Ocean, Reef Crystals and Red Sea are likely to be fairly consistent. The "boutique" brands might be less so (which was mentioned on the thread in reference to AquaVitro, for example).


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Unread 02/16/2019, 06:56 PM   #19
bfortune76
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An additional note on the acid. I would not add it to your disply. It drops the PH which is why I add it to newly mixed salt only and aerate it over night to bring ph back up before doing my water change.


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Unread 03/11/2019, 08:10 AM   #20
emilese
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An update, the coral did die. As suggested, my alkalinity may have been off. I had trouble getting the reagent for my Hanna Alk tester and I had to rely on the Red Sea kit as my backup. Which I initially hated (still not a fan but it will work in a pinch).

Now that I have my Hanna Alk tester working again, my Alk has been pretty steady at 8.9.

I'm thinking of switching salt from the Red Sea Pro (black bucket) to the regular Red Sea (blue bucket). I want a salt with lower alk and the Red Sea salt is readily available here.

Any concerns/cautions with changing salts? (Maybe I should make a new thread)

Oh, and thanks for all of the help and suggestions!


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