Looking for Pump(s) recommendation that can provide good flow at 16' head

[keshmir]

Hi all,

I have been struggling to find a good quiet aquarium pump that I can use to pump water from my sump (in the basement) to the first floor display tank. The display tank size is 560 US Galon. The distance from basement floor to the top of the display tank is about 16' there is also about 40 feet of pipe traveling horizontally before the water reaches the top of the display tank.

So far I have tried the following two pumps and am not happy with the result:

1) SICCE Syncra 12 3200 gph: This pump is supposed to pump up to 17.5' before it drops to zero. I have purchased the pump and the flow that I am getting at display tank is quite low. I have no way of measuring it but I can stop the water by simply putting the palm of my hand over the return.

2) Danner Proline HY-DRIVE 2600 gph: This pump is supposed to pump up to 26.5' before it drops to zero. I have purchased one of these and the flow is actually higher than the SICCE one but still not enough for the volume that I need to turn over.

Ideally I would like to have two pumps that each can provide me with 2000-3000 gph at that height.

I would appreciate if anyone who has experience with this kind of situation could point me to the right direction.

[Cujo]

My sump is my basement as we'll, I think you are missing a lot in your head calculation. All bends, joints, and shear distance will add head pressure, you may be dealing with closer to 25' of head. Also pumps rate for zero flow head but will also have a head vs flow curve, which means the Danner pump may only be rated for a few hundred gallons at 25'.

I use a Bashsea Madflo 3500, with 17' calculated head pressure where the height differential is near 11'.

I believe their is a head calculator on the Reef Central homepage

[keshmir]

Hi Cujo,

Thanks for your reply. Believe it or not I actually have not many joints in the way. The entire path is a single spa hose. There is total of 2x45 and one 90 joint that's all. I will check out the calculator and the Bashsea line. How noisy is your pump?

[Cujo]

It is not that quite, but I did not install the included rubber mount. Since it's in the basement fishroom noise is not a major concern

[rbarn]

Pentair says their Intelliflo variable speed pool pumps are not rated for saltwater, but there has to be a way to change the seals to something compatible.

These pumps rock ! Super silent, super efficient. All the head pressure you could ever want.
Infinite variable speed with 4 user programmable preset buttons. It can be controlled to have an Apex switch between the preset speeds with a little DIY customizing.

I would call pentair and bug them about what it would take to modify one to work with saltwater. 230V as well, so you'll have to run a special circuit for it.

This is the flow chart for the i1 model, which is a 3hp DC motor, derated by attaching a 1hp impeller to it.





LCD display tells you pump rpm and watts being consumed

[dave.m]

It's not just the seals, but any type of metal on any of the components or fasteners. They would all have to be able to stand up to the corrosive aspects of being in a saltwater environment (don't forget humidity).

Dave.M

[rbarn]

Originally Posted by dave.m

It's not just the seals, but any type of metal on any of the components or fasteners. They would all have to be able to stand up to the corrosive aspects of being in a saltwater environment (don't forget humidity).

Dave.M

I'm tempted to pull mine apart for you guys and have a look inside. I think the only thing metal on the wet side is probably the drive shaft.

I really cant say enough good things about these pumps. I have the full 3hp versions on my pool and will be using this de-rated 1hp version in the pic (7amp max power draw) on my 300 gallon freshwater tank.

The pumps are insanely quiet and I'm always amazed out how few watts they are pulling when slowed down

This really is worth bugging Pentair about with a few phone calls. No one in the aquarium industry offers a 1-3hp variable speed DC pump yet .....

PMRogers, said he called for his giant 1,700 gallon tank and all they said was they are not s/w compatible, but not what it would take to modify one with right materials.

The pumps are outdoor rated pool pumps, so I wouldnt worry about any of external hardware.

[keshmir]

rbarn, funny you referenced Pentair. My buddy is a contractor who installs pools and he insisted for me to try out this pool pump that he had sitting in his garage. I set it up last night and it is actually a Pentair product. It is a Superflo line 1HP:

http://www.pentairpool.com/products/...-pumps-165.htm

It can definitely handle the head pressure. However, it is not that quiet. My basement is a finished basement and the fishroom cannot make too much noise. By the time all my stuff is setup there will be many pumps and noise adds up.

Do you know if the Intelliflo that you mentioned is quieter than Superflo? I could not see any Decibel rating on the pump specs. I would definitely contact Pentair and tell them my scenario and see what they recommend.

[rbarn]

Originally Posted by keshmir

Do you know if the Intelliflo that you mentioned is quieter than Superflo? I could not see any Decibel rating on the pump specs. I would definitely contact Pentair and tell them my scenario and see what they recommend.

Pool pumps are loud because they run at 3,400rpm. Any pump running at 3,400rpm is loud.

If you look at the head flow chart you should be able to turn the pump down to about 2,000rpm. They are VERY quiet when running at 2,000 rpm, when cranked up to 3,400 rpm they are just as loud.

The problem is 99% aquarium pumps run at 1,750 rpm, which is fine as long as you dont have a lot head pressure to overcome, and all the aquarium specific DC variable speed pumps also stop at 1,750 rpm.

I looked all over for DC variable speed pump in the 1-3hp made for aquarium use (similar to Reeflo Manta Ray or Tiger Shark) cause the 3,400rpm pump noise was unacceptable to me as well, but no one makes one yet - at least that I could find.

Make sure to look at the i1 version. They are cheaper and provide more than enough flow.

Brochure says 45 db. All I can say is they are very quiet, when turned down to about 2,000rpm
http://www.pentairpool.com/pdfs/inte...eedwtimerB.pdf

With the 1hp pool pump you probably had to put a valve on the output to control flow. With variable speed pump you just slow the motor down instead and dramatically reduce noise and energy usage


The next solution for you would be to run 2 pumps in series. This will increase your head pressure effectively but leaves more to fail and go wrong.

[keshmir]

Originally Posted by rbarn

The next solution for you would be to run 2 pumps in series. This will increase your head pressure effectively but leaves more to fail and go wrong.

Now that is an interesting idea! Would you run them literally in series (i.e. the output of one is the input to the other) or use some kind of a wye connecter to join their outputs into a single line that is going up? Just curious what things do you see fail or go wrong in either scenario.

I think I will exhaust the Pentair route before I come back to something like this but I am curious what you're thinking.

[dave.m]

It is not unknown to gang two pumps one directly into another to increase flow. The calculations of the resulting flow are not quite straight forward as I recall.

Dave.M

[rbarn]

You want to run them in series for more head pressure or in parallel for more flow.

for your needs you would run them in series. This is acceptable to do and will not harm the pumps.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pu...ial-d_636.html

http://www.cheresources.com/invision...-and-parallel/

http://www.mcnallyinstitute.com/18-html/18-1.htm

Some things to consider when you connect pumps in series:

Both pumps must have the same width impeller or the difference in capacities (GPM or Cubic meters/hour.) could cause a cavitation problem if the first pump cannot supply enough liquid to the second pump.
Both pumps must run at the same speed (same reason).
Be sure the casing of the second pump is strong enough to resist the higher pressure. Higher strength material, ribbing, or extra bolting may be required.
The stuffing box of the second pump will see the discharge pressure of the first pump. You may need a high-pressure mechanical seal.
Be sure both pumps are filled with liquid during start-up and operation.
Start the second pump after the first pump is running.

More to fail, i just mean more pumps to break. If the first pump failed the resulting drag on the 2nd pump could damage it, but probably wouldn't,

[keshmir]

ok I have good news. I just got off the phone with Pentair rep and she was 100% confident that Intelliflo would be completely fine with saltwater aquarium. She seemed quite knowledgable about the products and she mentioned either of Whisperflo which apparently is the model that Intelliflo was designed after. I think Intelliflo is the right product for my situation and it looks really solid. Running the 230 power is not a problem for me. Time to shop around for a quote!

[Hookup]

double check no brass fittings would be exposed to the water - Worried about Copper.

[rbarn]

Originally Posted by keshmir

ok I have good news. I just got off the phone with Pentair rep and she was 100% confident that Intelliflo would be completely fine with saltwater aquarium. She seemed quite knowledgable about the products and she mentioned either of Whisperflo which apparently is the model that Intelliflo was designed after. I think Intelliflo is the right product for my situation and it looks really solid. Running the 230 power is not a problem for me. Time to shop around for a quote!

You definitely want the Intelliflo over the Whisperflo, so that you get the variable speed control.

I noticed they dropped the price on the Intelliflo pumps now too. They used to be $1,500+, now they are well under $1k.

And you can DIY wire it up to switch between pump speeds via a controller. $160 Pentair Intellicomm II interface box. This has 4 input wiring terminals that will accept a 10v activation signal that will switch between the user preset speeds.

[timkatz71]

I do the warranty work for Pentair, I'm at a convention in seminars now and will speak with the reps that are a bit more knowledgeable with it and will see what they say. Most of them have been with the company for more than 10 years and I would trust them over the phone reps everyday. I also will be putting this on my next setup, however I can take apart and replace parts as needed for less than cost and have parts on hand for them all of the time should there be an issue. The wisperflow is a great pump but only about 1/5 new pumps that I put in are single speed the rest are either two or vs pumps.

[timkatz71]

Sorry for the delay... this is the recommended, setup for salt setups.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategor...low-Technology

[DNA]

Is there not an optimal pipe with for a given pump to use when the head pressure is high?
So if you narrow the pipe with a bit you would reduce the mass sitting on the pump and get more flow.

I could be wrong, but that rarely happens.

[rbarn]

Originally Posted by DNA

Is there not an optimal pipe with for a given pump to use when the head pressure is high?
So if you narrow the pipe with a bit you would reduce the mass sitting on the pump and get more flow.

I could be wrong, but that rarely happens.

No you are wrong. Any given height of a column of water will have the same pressure to overcome whether column of water is 6" across or 6' across. It doesnt have to hold the mass of the water, it just to overcome it's pressure to move it.

The optimal outlet pipe for any given pump is usually 2x larger the outlet of the pump. Anything large is just a waste of pipe, but up to that can help reduce friction loss which the pump simply sees as more head pressure to overcome.