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Unread 10/20/2008, 04:30 PM   #1
HighlandReefer
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Vinegar dosing effect on alkalinity?

Randy in your "Grandmother Article", where you are discussing dosing vinegar with kalk and one of the drawbacks, you state, "the fact that some of the measured alkalinity may be acetate". How much of an effect does the vinegar dosing have when testing your alkalinity?


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Unread 10/20/2008, 10:12 PM   #2
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I thought that alkalinity test kits wouldn't measure that part of alkalinity that's bound organically as acetate. So the test kits might read a tad low, in theory, although I thought bacteria tended to make short work of the acetate.


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Unread 10/21/2008, 04:48 AM   #3
Randy Holmes-Farley
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A test kit will measure some of the acetate, but not all of it. I doubt there is much of any acetate in a tank dosing vodka. At least not enough to worry about.

1 mL of vodka in 100 gallons = 0.5 grams of ethanol in 100 gallons = 10.9 meq/100 gallons = 0.03 meq/L even if ALL of it were converted to acetate and then it degraded no further.


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Unread 10/21/2008, 04:57 AM   #4
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Would this be true if you are pushing the use of Vinegar at a rate of 75 ml vinegar / 3 tsps. kalk / 1 gal. rodi water in your top-off?


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Unread 10/21/2008, 06:44 AM   #5
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Sorry, don't know how I got onto vodka for the calculation.

My expectation is the acetate is fairly rapidly metabolized. But we can do that math on it too.

Why did you pick 75 ml? That seems high to me, but we can use it for a calculation.

75 ml of vinegar is equivalent to 3.8 grams of acetic acid, or 62 meq of acetate.

If you dose that to a 100 gallon tank, that is 0.16 meq/L. Small potatoes.


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Unread 10/21/2008, 06:38 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Why did you pick 75 ml?
Randy, let me ask a question first before I try to answer your question. How many ml. of vinegar would it take to completely dissolve all the calcium in 1 tsp of kalk completely by itself (without any water added)?


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Last edited by HighlandReefer; 10/21/2008 at 06:46 PM.
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Unread 10/21/2008, 08:04 PM   #7
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Randy,

If you were to use ozone with vodka dosing. What percent of vodka may be converted to acetate? You factor in skimmer, size of tank, and dose I could never come to a decent conclusion. In fact, would the amount of time O3 has to react in a skimmer would it at all convert EtOH to AcOH?


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Unread 10/22/2008, 05:01 AM   #8
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Randy, let me ask a question first before I try to answer your question. How many ml. of vinegar would it take to completely dissolve all the calcium in 1 tsp of kalk completely by itself (without any water added)?

I do not know, but if you do that, it will have way more vinegar than you want and will result in lower tank pH than if you added nothing to the tank at all. The reason is that more than half of the vinegar pH lowering effect comes later when bacteria metabolize the acetate to CO2.

I believe that Craig Bingman calculated that 45 mL of vinegar was about right for 3 level teaspoons of lime in a gallon of fresh water:

Expanding the Limits of Limewater: Adding Organic Carbon Sources
http://web.archive.org/web/200304181...io/default.asp

from it:

"It should be noted that you will be able to dissolve substantially more calcium hydroxide than usual in this way. If you use the maximum concentration of acetic acid listed in Table I, you will be able to get about 36 percent more calcium hydroxide to dissolve than if you mixed it normally. "


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Unread 10/22/2008, 05:03 AM   #9
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If you were to use ozone with vodka dosing. What percent of vodka may be converted to acetate? You factor in skimmer, size of tank, and dose I could never come to a decent conclusion. In fact, would the amount of time O3 has to react in a skimmer would it at all convert EtOH to AcOH?

I'm not sure, but I'd guess not that much since it is not a reaction that is especially rapid with ozone, relative to other sorts of reactions.


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Unread 10/22/2008, 06:01 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Randy, let me ask a question first before I try to answer your question. How many ml. of vinegar would it take to completely dissolve all the calcium in 1 tsp of kalk completely by itself (without any water added)?

I do not know, but if you do that, it will have way more vinegar than you want and will result in lower tank pH than if you added nothing to the tank at all. The reason is that more than half of the vinegar pH lowering effect comes later when bacteria metabolize the acetate to CO2.

I believe that Craig Bingman calculated that 45 mL of vinegar was about right for 3 level teaspoons of lime in a gallon of fresh water:

Expanding the Limits of Limewater: Adding Organic Carbon Sources
http://web.archive.org/web/200304181...io/default.asp

from it:

"It should be noted that you will be able to dissolve substantially more calcium hydroxide than usual in this way. If you use the maximum concentration of acetic acid listed in Table I, you will be able to get about 36 percent more calcium hydroxide to dissolve than if you mixed it normally. "
Thanks for the link Randy.
From what I gather in Craig Bingman's table, the maximum dose is 12.2 ml/L (approximately 25 ml. / gallon). Is this per 1 tsp of kalk?


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Last edited by HighlandReefer; 10/22/2008 at 06:15 AM.
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Unread 10/22/2008, 06:19 AM   #11
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That is about 45 ml per gallon, and will dissolve about 3 teaspoons.


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Unread 10/22/2008, 06:50 AM   #12
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Ok. I misunderstood the chart.

I started out dosing 5 ml. of vinegar to 1 tsp. kalk and slowly worked up from there based on how well the dosing kept up with my alkalinity and calcium levels with my tank demand. Through trial and error I slowly worked my way up to 25 ml. / 1 tsp of kalk / gallon of rodi. At that level, both alk. & cal. production were maxed out and I did not achieve any more benefits. As I added more corals, my demand for alk & cal. grew to the point where I need to now add 75 ml vinegar / 3 tsps kalk / 1 gal. rodi. This meets my tank demand without supplementing cal. or alk. I did back off at your recommendation a while back. When I backed off on the amount of vinegar I added, I had to start dosing alk & calcium in large amounts. I slowly increased the vinegar again until I once again maxed out at the 25 ml. / 1 tsp. kalk level. I tried to go beyond the 3 tsps kalk / 1 gallon of rodi and it did not work. Vinegar dosing seems to max out a the 75 ml vinegar /3 tsps. kalk / 1 gallon rodi level. Even at dosing vinegar at the levels I am currently at, there seems to be no appreciable decrease in pH. My pH is running at 8.0-8.1 with the window closed. I do have problems with high CO2 in my house if that has any effect on the equation. I have kept daily measurements of my tank parameters during this entire period & have been carefully observing the effects on my tank inhabitants. I have not observed any ill effect. How would one explain this?

Edit: I am no way recommending dosing of vinegar to anybody reading this. What I have done is purely experimental on my part. I have agreed with myself to live with the consequences of my actions. There are many possible interactions in what I am doing, such as the presence of deep sand beds or not.


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Last edited by HighlandReefer; 10/22/2008 at 07:45 AM.
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Unread 10/22/2008, 07:49 AM   #13
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I apologize, I entered the wrong information. It should have read the maximum dose of 75 ml. vinegar / 3 tsps. kalk / 1 gallon of rodi. I have been mixing batches of 3 gallons of my kalk mix at a time, which would be 225 ml. vinegar/ 9 tsps. kalk / 3 gallons rodi. I edited my above response. I need another cup of coffee.


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Last edited by HighlandReefer; 10/22/2008 at 07:55 AM.
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Unread 10/22/2008, 08:32 AM   #14
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I think one possible explanation as to why my pH has not dropped more, is that I have my sump & refugium in the basement with a large return pump to get the water back up to my main tank on the main level. I have a strong flow & have many micro bubbles which I have not worried about. I assume that the large amount of micro bubbles helps to equalize the CO2 levels to an equilibrium with the rest of my home. I would also think, that the micro bubbles help to keep my oxygen levels up in my tank, which is one of the problems with dosing vinegar.


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Unread 10/22/2008, 10:30 AM   #15
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If you have enough tank aeration, even if you generate excess CO2 in the tank, it may not reduce pH if the CO2 level in the air is not too high.


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