GFO (PhosBan) - Just How Good Is It? - Page 3

King-Kong · 08/13/2007, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JetCat USA
in my 75s with corals i run PhosBan 150s on both of those but only with 1 cup of media and they keep a consistent < 0.01 swapping the media about every two months but the system has been at low levels as long as I've had them up and running.

ooops.. I made a typo.. I meant I was curious to see what YOU could do for levels < .03

That said, good response.

xtm · 08/13/2007, 01:44 PM

Thanks for doing the test. That was very interesting!

Now It would be REALLY interesting if you can bust the myth about spent media "leaching" back Phosphates into the system...

Willistein · 08/13/2007, 02:26 PM

What time were your readings of 0.23 and 0.20?

JetCat USA · 08/13/2007, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Willistein
What time were your readings of 0.23 and 0.20?

the 0.23 was at 1700hrs, 26 hrs after the previous test when the media was thought to have been exhausted.

the 0.20 was at 1845hrs, 1 hr 45 min after the replacement of all media.

@xtm

it seams the water treatment plants have more then did the testing and proven they do not leech it back to the water.

Willistein · 08/13/2007, 02:44 PM

This plot shows your first batch of GFO doing it's thing over time. The plot shows a very typical natural curve much like a cooling curve. The equation would have a time constant that would probably be constant given a certain reactor and flow rate. It would be interesting to see if this holds up for different tanks outfitted with the same reactor, same media, flow rate, etc... I was a little suprised at how good this curve looks, your meter must be pretty accurate.

The plot shows that when the concentration of PO4 is high it is easily taken out of the water. As the concentration decreases and there is less in the water it becomes slower and slower. The two reasons for it becoming slower are:

1. ion concentration of the PO4 is lower (like the cooling law)
2. media is "filling up" making it less effective.

I would encourage anyone to characterize the equation for us

JetCat USA · 08/13/2007, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Willistein
........I was a little suprised at how good this curve looks, your meter must be pretty accurate.

Yeap, that's why i bought it and tossed all those dang test kits out the window, now i know my levels rather then guessing at colors.

i also think that in your list there should be a #3

3) the die back of the GHA and the leeching out of the rock has presumably slowed the decline.

it could be in actuality still pulling PO4 from the system at the same rates as before but it can't be seen through testing IF PO4 is being leeched back to the system from the GHA and the LR.

sabbath · 08/13/2007, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JetCat USA
I was thinking again, believe it or not, and the past few days the skimmer has really picked up the beat. the PO4 levels may not be noticeably dropping as much with the testing because of the GHA dieing off and releasing PO4 as it does...........just a thought.

Good point. I would bet you are right and as with what boxfishpooalot said earlier.

This is great to watch!

JetCat USA · 08/13/2007, 03:18 PM

after taking a test or two later tonight, i may turn the reactor off and see if the levels rise, that would give a pretty good indication that the rock is leeching back to the tank water.

sabbath · 08/13/2007, 04:03 PM

That would be interesting too. How do you store the GFO while it is off for the test? Wet / Dry ?

JetCat USA · 08/13/2007, 04:04 PM

wet, just unplug the feed pump

cashman95 · 08/13/2007, 06:19 PM

JetCat USA, Can you elaborate on a Phosphate reactor? I have a 75 gallon SPS tank, and I am showing a reading of .25 on a Salifert test kit(I think that is the reading?) that my local store tested for me. I obviously need to get a handle on it, and was told to do more water changes and feed less. I already do 10% a week and feed the bare minimum. I have 2 Anthias and a Tang, along with a couple of Wrasse's and a blenny. Also have a sea hair that is controlling the Hair Algea as I write. Is a Phosphate reactor something that would benefit me? What are the Pros and Cons, and how might I set one up without hurting my SPS?

I didnt mean to steal this thread and if you want to PM me to keep this thread on track, I would very much appreciate it. I hit the search button a couple of times with no luck in getting that feature to work tonight.

My wife has already said it ok to spend the money on one...so I am waiting for more INFO!

BTW do you fly RC?

JetCat USA · 08/13/2007, 06:39 PM

Yes, been flying almost as long as I've been reefing.

the reactor is just a way to fluidized the media, which makes the media more efficient. i wouldn't run a reef without one, it'll defiantly help with the hair algae you're having problems with, But keep in mind that your clean up crew is gonna drop off just like your PO4 levels will

on an already established system (with corals) you don't want to drop the levels to quickly so get the reactor and only put 1/4th the recommended media for the volume of water you have. keep an eye on things for the first few days to a week making sure none of your corals are stressed then the next time you fill the reactor up the dose.

JetCat USA · 08/13/2007, 08:25 PM

2100hrs 13 Aug 2007
[img]http://i10.*******.com/4kz1ftc.jpg[/img]

reactor pump now being unplugged till morning to see if the levels rise.

JetCat USA · 08/14/2007, 06:24 AM

There are updates that are pretty amazing, I've still got do downsize the pics and upload them then I'll get them posted here, been running just a little behind this morning.........is it Monday again?

JetCat USA · 08/14/2007, 06:55 AM

0430hrs 13 Aug 2007 (pump off for 7.5 hrs)
[img]http://i16.*******.com/6c67h9v.jpg[/img]

this seams to support that the dieing GHA and/or the live rock are leeching PO4 back to the water.

pump back on at 0430hrs........

0730hrs 13 Aug 2007
[img]http://i13.*******.com/4qp3lex.jpg[/img]

flaunt669 · 08/14/2007, 07:12 AM

wow, only off for 7.5hrs and it increased that much? seems like a quick increase. Again could be due to the die off or leaching. great thread by the way!

jdieck · 08/14/2007, 07:45 AM

Jet, note that below 1 mg/lt the meter may not be that accurate but it is still an excellent reference. I tested the meter with a calibrated solution at different known dillutions and close to 1 mg/lt it has a +/- 10 % variation which is very good but below 0.05 mg/lt it gets very sketchy.
By manufacturer specs it has an accuracy of +/- 0.04 mg/lt which in my book is still very good for aquarium use. I use it and any reading above 0 tells me it is time to switch media.

For those who want more accuracy and have the mony to spend. The Hach colorimeter is spec. at +/- 0.02 mg/lt and the LaMotte colorimeter at 0.01 mg/lt.

KurtsReef · 08/14/2007, 01:26 PM

I wonder if the rock will eventually quit leaching

This thread convinced me to get a reactor

JetCat USA · 08/14/2007, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KurtsReef
I wonder if the rock will eventually quit leaching

when it runs out it has to

the down side is who knows how much it's soaked up and how long it will take to draw all of it back out

JetCat USA · 08/14/2007, 01:36 PM

Jose

it's Â±4% of the reading is how the Hannah tech explained it to me

Genetics · 08/14/2007, 02:16 PM

JetCat

On your used media have you thought about taking out the media (turn off reactor) and let the phosphate level build back up. Then turn on the reactor and see if the used media reduces phosphate some more? It could just be that it's reached a point of saturation and if the water phosphate increases it has the ability to absorb more.

cashman95 · 08/14/2007, 02:33 PM

JetCat USA, How does the Salifert test kit measure up compared to the colormeter....I know its not near as presice, but for an average JOE will it be suffencient? How low will the Salifert Test kit read accurately?

Thanks

JetCat USA · 08/14/2007, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Genetics
JetCat

On your used media have you thought about taking out the media (turn off reactor) and let the phosphate level build back up. Then turn on the reactor and see if the used media reduces phosphate some more? It could just be that it's reached a point of saturation and if the water phosphate increases it has the ability to absorb more.

i guess to be completely logical about it the media wasn't fully exhausted when i swapped it out, the levels had dropped a few 10ths of a point over a 26 hour period, they didn't rise so If the rock was leeching back to the water at that time the media was still absorbing what the rock was leeching and the levels didn't rise. looking back now the media probably shouldn't be replaced till you notice an increase in the PO4 levels..........but there seams to be a bit of a draw back as I'll note below with this afternoons readings.

JetCat USA · 08/14/2007, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cashman95
JetCat USA, How does the Salifert test kit measure up compared to the colormeter....I know its not near as presice, but for an average JOE will it be suffencient? How low will the Salifert Test kit read accurately?

Thanks

the Salifert did match pretty close till it got down to the low range (looking through the side of the water sample), i wouldn't rely on it for levels lower then 0.10 but if you're getting readings below that or even zero your levels should be low enough that it shouldn't have a significant effect on your corals but you may still have levels to contribute to algae growth.

JetCat USA · 08/14/2007, 02:53 PM

This afternoons test was at 1530hrs, the results were 0.10ppm PO4, the hectic after school commotion resulted in a greater then 10 min of non use from the tester so it self shut off so no pic

the levels have risen a good bit today compared to this morning, but the die off of GHA in the system is significant and is the likely cause of such a rise. I'll test again later this afternoon and if they are still on the rise I'll swap out the media again.

it seams that a tank that has been neglected for a substantial amount of time will take a substantial amount of time and media to get back in check.

just an FYI:

while not as clear as a system running O3, the tank visibility has cleared up considerably looking down the 6' length from end to end.

08/13/2007, 01:44 PM	#52
xtm Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Panorama City, CA Posts: 4,703	Thanks for doing the test. That was very interesting! Now It would be REALLY interesting if you can bust the myth about spent media "leaching" back Phosphates into the system... __________________ Function before fashion Current Tank Info: 120g SPS Tank (48x24x24)

08/13/2007, 06:19 PM	#61
cashman95 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Greenville, S.C. Posts: 810	JetCat USA, Can you elaborate on a Phosphate reactor? I have a 75 gallon SPS tank, and I am showing a reading of .25 on a Salifert test kit(I think that is the reading?) that my local store tested for me. I obviously need to get a handle on it, and was told to do more water changes and feed less. I already do 10% a week and feed the bare minimum. I have 2 Anthias and a Tang, along with a couple of Wrasse's and a blenny. Also have a sea hair that is controlling the Hair Algea as I write. Is a Phosphate reactor something that would benefit me? What are the Pros and Cons, and how might I set one up without hurting my SPS? I didnt mean to steal this thread and if you want to PM me to keep this thread on track, I would very much appreciate it. I hit the search button a couple of times with no luck in getting that feature to work tonight. My wife has already said it ok to spend the money on one...so I am waiting for more INFO! BTW do you fly RC? __________________ SPS Tank with sump in the garage, 400watt Radium/Lumatek ballast,ReefKeeper2 controlling it all!! VHO actinics in the works! Current Tank Info: 24x24x20 Rimless Cube

08/14/2007, 07:45 AM	#67
jdieck Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maumee, OH Posts: 15,673	Jet, note that below 1 mg/lt the meter may not be that accurate but it is still an excellent reference. I tested the meter with a calibrated solution at different known dillutions and close to 1 mg/lt it has a +/- 10 % variation which is very good but below 0.05 mg/lt it gets very sketchy. By manufacturer specs it has an accuracy of +/- 0.04 mg/lt which in my book is still very good for aquarium use. I use it and any reading above 0 tells me it is time to switch media. For those who want more accuracy and have the mony to spend. The Hach colorimeter is spec. at +/- 0.02 mg/lt and the LaMotte colorimeter at 0.01 mg/lt. __________________ Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind. Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium

08/14/2007, 02:16 PM	#71
Genetics Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Ontario, Ohio Posts: 4,937	JetCat On your used media have you thought about taking out the media (turn off reactor) and let the phosphate level build back up. Then turn on the reactor and see if the used media reduces phosphate some more? It could just be that it's reached a point of saturation and if the water phosphate increases it has the ability to absorb more. __________________ Nate Current Tank Info: 15g Waterbox cube

08/14/2007, 02:33 PM	#72
cashman95 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Greenville, S.C. Posts: 810	JetCat USA, How does the Salifert test kit measure up compared to the colormeter....I know its not near as presice, but for an average JOE will it be suffencient? How low will the Salifert Test kit read accurately? Thanks __________________ SPS Tank with sump in the garage, 400watt Radium/Lumatek ballast,ReefKeeper2 controlling it all!! VHO actinics in the works! Current Tank Info: 24x24x20 Rimless Cube

08/13/2007, 02:26 PM	#53
Willistein Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Wheatland, NY Posts: 2,585	What time were your readings of 0.23 and 0.20?

08/13/2007, 02:44 PM	#55
Willistein Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Wheatland, NY Posts: 2,585	This plot shows your first batch of GFO doing it's thing over time. The plot shows a very typical natural curve much like a cooling curve. The equation would have a time constant that would probably be constant given a certain reactor and flow rate. It would be interesting to see if this holds up for different tanks outfitted with the same reactor, same media, flow rate, etc... I was a little suprised at how good this curve looks, your meter must be pretty accurate. The plot shows that when the concentration of PO4 is high it is easily taken out of the water. As the concentration decreases and there is less in the water it becomes slower and slower. The two reasons for it becoming slower are: 1. ion concentration of the PO4 is lower (like the cooling law) 2. media is "filling up" making it less effective. I would encourage anyone to characterize the equation for us

08/13/2007, 03:18 PM	#58
JetCat USA Moved On Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 2,847	after taking a test or two later tonight, i may turn the reactor off and see if the levels rise, that would give a pretty good indication that the rock is leeching back to the tank water.

08/13/2007, 04:03 PM	#59
sabbath Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Twin City's Mn. Posts: 1,771	That would be interesting too. How do you store the GFO while it is off for the test? Wet / Dry ?

08/13/2007, 04:04 PM	#60
JetCat USA Moved On Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 2,847	wet, just unplug the feed pump

08/13/2007, 06:39 PM	#62
JetCat USA Moved On Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 2,847	Yes, been flying almost as long as I've been reefing. the reactor is just a way to fluidized the media, which makes the media more efficient. i wouldn't run a reef without one, it'll defiantly help with the hair algae you're having problems with, But keep in mind that your clean up crew is gonna drop off just like your PO4 levels will on an already established system (with corals) you don't want to drop the levels to quickly so get the reactor and only put 1/4th the recommended media for the volume of water you have. keep an eye on things for the first few days to a week making sure none of your corals are stressed then the next time you fill the reactor up the dose.

08/13/2007, 08:25 PM	#63
JetCat USA Moved On Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 2,847	2100hrs 13 Aug 2007 [img]http://i10.*******.com/4kz1ftc.jpg[/img] reactor pump now being unplugged till morning to see if the levels rise.

08/14/2007, 06:24 AM	#64
JetCat USA Moved On Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 2,847	There are updates that are pretty amazing, I've still got do downsize the pics and upload them then I'll get them posted here, been running just a little behind this morning.........is it Monday again?

08/14/2007, 06:55 AM	#65
JetCat USA Moved On Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 2,847	0430hrs 13 Aug 2007 (pump off for 7.5 hrs) [img]http://i16.*****.com/6c67h9v.jpg[/img] this seams to support that the dieing GHA and/or the live rock are leeching PO4 back to the water. pump back on at 0430hrs........ 0730hrs 13 Aug 2007 [img]http://i13.*****.com/4qp3lex.jpg[/img]

08/14/2007, 07:12 AM	#66
flaunt669 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6	wow, only off for 7.5hrs and it increased that much? seems like a quick increase. Again could be due to the die off or leaching. great thread by the way!

08/14/2007, 01:26 PM	#68
KurtsReef Premium Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: North Boston, NY Posts: 2,603	I wonder if the rock will eventually quit leaching This thread convinced me to get a reactor

08/14/2007, 01:36 PM	#70
JetCat USA Moved On Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 2,847	Jose it's Â±4% of the reading is how the Hannah tech explained it to me

08/14/2007, 02:53 PM	#75
JetCat USA Moved On Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 2,847	This afternoons test was at 1530hrs, the results were 0.10ppm PO4, the hectic after school commotion resulted in a greater then 10 min of non use from the tester so it self shut off so no pic the levels have risen a good bit today compared to this morning, but the die off of GHA in the system is significant and is the likely cause of such a rise. I'll test again later this afternoon and if they are still on the rise I'll swap out the media again. it seams that a tank that has been neglected for a substantial amount of time will take a substantial amount of time and media to get back in check. just an FYI: while not as clear as a system running O3, the tank visibility has cleared up considerably looking down the 6' length from end to end.