Jebao Cross Flow Pump

[CuzzA]

If you don't want your product to get ripped, don't build it in China.

ganjero makes an excellent point. Gyre = laminar flow. We want surge. I dove a reef yesterday in 30 fsw and the back and forth surge was incredibly strong with gorgonians really moving. That's what we want in our tanks.

When I first saw the design I knew immediately this was not a product I would buy. Not because it was made in China, the price, quality issues, etc. But because it's not the right flow. It would be perfect to replicate a river, not a reef. IMO, wavemakers and surge devices are the standard. However, that doesn't mean laminar flow will retard coral growth, but we are attempting to recreate the ocean in our tanks, not rivers.

[karimwassef]

Laminar just means the opposite of turbulent. The point with this kind of propeller is that you can create a sheet of flow vs a traditional cone of flow from a powerhead. You can have it cycle up and down to create pulses of current flow and with enough power, it'll create a sheet of powerful current flow. If you use that to create a circulating current, you would simulate the reef quite well.

[CuzzA]

I have no experience with the gyre, but all the videos I've seen the flow is just a one directional laminar sheet of flow either circulating the water horizontally from top to bottom or front to back around the perimeter of the tank.

I have not seen it produce back and forth surge like what's created by a wavemaker. The term wavemaker is really a bad term too. It should be called a surgemaker. Waves are on the surface not below the water.

[jrp1588]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

I have no experience with the gyre, but all the videos I've seen the flow is just a one directional laminar sheet of flow either circulating the water horizontally from top to bottom or front to back around the perimeter of the tank.

I have not seen it produce back and forth surge like what's created by a wavemaker. The term wavemaker is really a bad term too. It should be called a surgemaker. Waves are on the surface not below the water.

Knowing how Jebao does their controllers, I'm betting they'll be set up a lot like the RW's. Probably can antisync 2 of them wirelessly. They'll be cheap, so get 2. Then you'll have alternating surges.

[Ron Reefman]

Originally Posted by ganjero

No, I don't see why people want to spend money in these poorly design pumps. Gyre flow is nothing new and it can be easily achieved with powerheads (in your case 2 RWs), and if you don't like it you can till use the same powerheads to create a different type of flow.

I still remember when the DIY maximods started poping, people were using them to create gyre flow and of course you got a ton of people saying that gyre flow wasn't enough for our tanks. Now a company makes a pump that looks different, creates some fancy videos about how beneficial gyre flow is and everyone "needs" one.

Nobody needs one. But if they like the idea and want one (or two) why do you care?

[ganjero]

Originally Posted by Ron Reefman

Nobody needs one.Hence the quotation marks But if they like the idea and want one (or two) why do you care?I don't care, I just answered the question I quoted, with a bit of my personal view

How is your tank doing? I haven't seen pictures of it in a while. Do you have a thread for your tank?

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

If you don't want your product to get ripped, don't build it in China.

ganjero makes an excellent point. Gyre = laminar flow. We want surge. I dove a reef yesterday in 30 fsw and the back and forth surge was incredibly strong with gorgonians really moving. That's what we want in our tanks.

When I first saw the design I knew immediately this was not a product I would buy. Not because it was made in China, the price, quality issues, etc. But because it's not the right flow. It would be perfect to replicate a river, not a reef. IMO, wavemakers and surge devices are the standard. However, that doesn't mean laminar flow will retard coral growth, but we are attempting to recreate the ocean in our tanks, not rivers.

There's all kinds of flow out there depending on where you dive. There certainly is areas of constant single direction flow. Golf stream comes to mind where I grew up fishing big fish. There's areas where there's changes in direction one or more times a day in tidal zones like the canals and channels I used to swim up and down to get out to the ocean. Then there certainly are turbulent areas of constant change. Shallow reef zones like Grecian rocks comes to mind is like that.

[that Fish Guy]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

If you don't want your product to get ripped, don't build it in China.

ganjero makes an excellent point. Gyre = laminar flow. We want surge. I dove a reef yesterday in 30 fsw and the back and forth surge was incredibly strong with gorgonians really moving. That's what we want in our tanks.

When I first saw the design I knew immediately this was not a product I would buy. Not because it was made in China, the price, quality issues, etc. But because it's not the right flow. It would be perfect to replicate a river, not a reef. IMO, wavemakers and surge devices are the standard. However, that doesn't mean laminar flow will retard coral growth, but we are attempting to recreate the ocean in our tanks, not rivers.

So do you like the Vortechs then?

I just got Two Vortechs (MP-10 Quiet Drives) and Love them but I am not an expert on Flow (Have been using Hydor Koralias for the Last 6 Years on all My Tanks).

I was going to do Gyres on my Next Build to Compare Gyres to Vortechs to see which I like better.

Lately everyone has been saying Gyres are waaaaaay better than Vortechs.

So you are saying they are Wrong?

Do you use Vortechs or another Type of Pump?

What are the Best Pumps for the "Back and Forth Surge" you are Talking about?

[Ron Reefman]

Originally Posted by ganjero

How is your tank doing? I haven't seen pictures of it in a while. Do you have a thread for your tank?

Thanks for asking. I just rebuilt my OceansMotions CL system for the first time in 5 years. It failed due to a magnet getting wet, rusting and expanding enough to stop the motor. I got a new mag drive unit and it's a much improved quality and the side that can get wet is now encased in plastic. Very cool.

I just did a major frag event and made room for corals to grow again, so the tank looks kind of 'new' with smaller colonies. But everybody is healthy. I've been 'away' from RC for awhile; A) I'm on never ending probation (please reconsider RC), B) Being retired has made my life much more active and busy! C) I've started back into performance driving (auto-cross and PDX- SCCA Performance Driving eXperience).

I have the OM CL with 3 revolution heads (so very random flow patterns). I have 2 Jebao WP40 wave makers. And my sump return is split into 2 lines at opposite ends of the tank and runs through a SCWD so the flow alternates. I think random, turbulent flow that changes is really good for the tank (pretty obvious given my set up, right?). But I'd consider swapping out my Jebao WP40's for a gyre at each end of the tank.

I don't have a thread about the tank as I figured people here at RC see it more than enough already in my other posts!

[CuzzA]

Yep, currents, lunar tides, wave strength, temperature and wind all effect flow and "most" areas change often. Hence my critique of the single style flow of a laminar machine.

My tank follows a tidal schedule with random spouts of strong surge to laminar flow that I would describe as slack tide. But the predominate flow pattern is surge.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

I have no experience with the gyre, but all the videos I've seen the flow is just a one directional laminar sheet of flow either circulating the water horizontally from top to bottom or front to back around the perimeter of the tank.

I have not seen it produce back and forth surge like what's created by a wavemaker. The term wavemaker is really a bad term too. It should be called a surgemaker. Waves are on the surface not below the water.

When I put two gyres horizontal on the back wall one on each side of my center weir there was a lot of very turbulent flow. It would create a sheet of flow on the top with lots of surface agitation and as soon as it hit the front pain that flow became very chaotic. I kind of liked it.

I went back to vertical on both sides back corners. I really like the circular gyre around the back and front of the tank. But as soon as the flow hits any object it creates a turbulent stream. This object can also be fish. My anemones are constantly blowing around.

I also have it changing direction around every 6 hours ramping up and down with the Lunar cycles. My fish also seem to like this a lot better and can see how they react to the direction change work with flow. It's quite interesting.

[Ron Reefman]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

I have not seen it produce back and forth surge like what's created by a wavemaker. The term wavemaker is really a bad term too. It should be called a surgemaker. Waves are on the surface not below the water.

Not exactly the way waves work. Waves run well below the surface. They don't flow back and forth either, they flow in a linear fashion through the water over very long distances. Being in a fixed position underwater it seems to go back and forth, but that's your reaction to the waves flowing past you... even under water.

[CuzzA]

Originally Posted by Ron Reefman

Not exactly the way waves work. Waves run well below the surface. They don't flow back and forth either, they flow in a linear fashion through the water over very long distances. Being in a fixed position underwater it seems to go back and forth, but that's your reaction to the waves flowing past you... even under water.

I understand how waves work and their effect on fixed objects underwater. However, underwater this "effect" would be described as surge not waves. You wouldn't be diving 50' and say to your buddy, "Wow, these waves are really powerful today." And since we view our tanks from underwater I would describe them as surgemakers since the effect can be created without having surface waves.

I was being sardonic. I really don't care what anyone calls them as long as they produce the type of flow I want.

[CuzzA]

Originally Posted by that Fish Guy

So do you like the Vortechs then?

I just got Two Vortechs (MP-10 Quiet Drives) and Love them but I am not an expert on Flow (Have been using Hydor Koralias for the Last 6 Years on all My Tanks).

I was going to do Gyres on my Next Build to Compare Gyres to Vortechs to see which I like better.

Lately everyone has been saying Gyres are waaaaaay better than Vortechs.

So you are saying they are Wrong?

Do you use Vortechs or another Type of Pump?

What are the Best Pumps for the "Back and Forth Surge" you are Talking about?

I have Jebao's. Despite some early poor reviews mine have lasted well over a year. As with anything mechanical, proper maintenance is key. Vortechs can provide the same style of controllable surge flow. However, I did not like the Vortechs because A) I felt they were way overpriced and B) You cant turn them in any direction. Instead they must be moved to the location of the glass, often on the sides, whereas the Jebao or Tunzes can be placed on the back glass and directed where ever you want.

I'm not saying the gyres are necessarily wrong, to each his own. Like I said, it's not like it's going to retard coral growth. I'm just saying the most common type of flow I've experienced in many areas of Florida, from the Keys to Tampa Bay has been surge. Like this.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by ganjero

No, I don't see why people want to spend money in these poorly design pumps. Gyre flow is nothing new and it can be easily achieved with powerheads (in your case 2 RWs), and if you don't like it you can till use the same powerheads to create a different type of flow.

I still remember when the DIY maximods started poping, people were using them to create gyre flow and of course you got a ton of people saying that gyre flow wasn't enough for our tanks. Now a company makes a pump that looks different, creates some fancy videos about how beneficial gyre flow is and everyone "needs" one.

The concept is nothing new. The design is new or at least new to market. There's all kinds of powerheads out there and they will all pretty much work. It's all personal preference. I was terrible at properly placing and tuning powerheads.

There's so much more I can do with the gyre I couldn't do with the traditional powerhead. Like in a horizontal position because of how its designed you can almost get the gyre right up to the surface of the water with out sucking on air. Making the gyre very low profile and producing a ton of surface agitation. I've seen one really interesting mounting option with the gyre attached to the braces.

With the gyre I can flip the paddle wheels and cages and get true alternating flow by reversing the direction of the gyre. Setting up the alternating directions also makes it semi self cleaning as it blows off debris that was building up while running in the other direction. My fish love that feature. As the debris could be edible or little critters that are edible are on the debris. When the direction changes they fly off and the fish go nuts chasing after it for a snack.

Then there's certainly ways to make it do things like pulse, sync, anti sync, etc. But watching the overall flow in a constant motion is something the gyre excels at. Watching the little turbulent streams caused by the corals, rocks or fish or both is peaceful and causes chain reactions that's fun to watch for. And you can see the fish interact with that flow.

[ganjero]

Originally Posted by Ron Reefman

Thanks for asking. I just rebuilt my OceansMotions CL system for the first time in 5 years. It failed due to a magnet getting wet, rusting and expanding enough to stop the motor. I got a new mag drive unit and it's a much improved quality and the side that can get wet is now encased in plastic. Very cool.

I just did a major frag event and made room for corals to grow again, so the tank looks kind of 'new' with smaller colonies. But everybody is healthy. I've been 'away' from RC for awhile; A) I'm on never ending probation (please reconsider RC), B) Being retired has made my life much more active and busy! C) I've started back into performance driving (auto-cross and PDX- SCCA Performance Driving eXperience).

I have the OM CL with 3 revolution heads (so very random flow patterns). I have 2 Jebao WP40 wave makers. And my sump return is split into 2 lines at opposite ends of the tank and runs through a SCWD so the flow alternates. I think random, turbulent flow that changes is really good for the tank (pretty obvious given my set up, right?). But I'd consider swapping out my Jebao WP40's for a gyre at each end of the tank.

I don't have a thread about the tank as I figured people here at RC see it more than enough already in my other posts!

Great summary, I wish I new about your frag event since now I am much closer to you.
Constant probation...

Are you using jebao return pumps?

[SeedlessOne]

Originally Posted by that Fish Guy

Why is he Trolling?

I agree with him.

Of course you do....

[eg8r210]

Originally Posted by d2mini

I like the vortechs and tunze. Haven't tried the jaebos.
I really liked the idea of the gyre, just wasn't a fan of the execution... not one bit. Maybe for half the price.

I am confused, if you are not a fan of the execution...not one bit, why would the price change your mind? Anyone thinking Jebao is going to build anything better or build upon what is already there is crazy. They steal, they don't innovate.

[eg8r210]

Originally Posted by ganjero

No, I don't see why people want to spend money in these poorly design pumps. Gyre flow is nothing new and it can be easily achieved with powerheads (in your case 2 RWs), and if you don't like it you can till use the same powerheads to create a different type of flow.

Yes, they both can create the same type of flow. The gyre feels like an ocean wave spread across quite a distance and the the RWs/Vortechs/Tunze all feel like a hose with a spray nozzle. Sure all these different powerheads push water forward but they are not the same.

[jrp1588]

Originally Posted by eg8r210

I am confused, if you are not a fan of the execution...not one bit, why would the price change your mind? Anyone thinking Jebao is going to build anything better or build upon what is already there is crazy. They steal, they don't innovate.

I bet you they'll use almost the exact same controller the RW's use, just because they have it laying around. I'd say the RW's controller is better than the Gyre's. Other than that, I'm not really expecting improvements.

[eg8r210]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

I have no experience with the gyre, but all the videos I've seen the flow is just a one directional laminar sheet of flow either circulating the water horizontally from top to bottom or front to back around the perimeter of the tank.

I have not seen it produce back and forth surge like what's created by a wavemaker. The term wavemaker is really a bad term too. It should be called a surgemaker. Waves are on the surface not below the water.

Probably better that you go see one in action instead of telling people what it can and can't do.

It has no problem whatsoever making waves and rocking the water back and forth like any of the powerheads. With an Apex it will have no issue recreating reef crest mode like a Vortech. Where I think it stands head and shoulders above the rest is that it will do this with a much wider flow. I have about 200 armor of god polyps within 10" of my Gyre (on full blast) and they are all wide open. When my mp60 was there the polyps were closed up. I have to move the direct flow of the mp60 further to the front of the glass to not **** off the polyps. The gyre literally is blowing right into them.

Lastly, in my 6' long tank, I can see water strong water movement from the gyre about 5' across the tank. My mp60 is no where close to moving the same amount of water.

[eg8r210]

Originally Posted by that Fish Guy

So do you like the Vortechs then?

I just got Two Vortechs (MP-10 Quiet Drives) and Love them but I am not an expert on Flow (Have been using Hydor Koralias for the Last 6 Years on all My Tanks).

I was going to do Gyres on my Next Build to Compare Gyres to Vortechs to see which I like better.

Lately everyone has been saying Gyres are waaaaaay better than Vortechs.

So you are saying they are Wrong?

Do you use Vortechs or another Type of Pump?

What are the Best Pumps for the "Back and Forth Surge" you are Talking about?

I wouldn't say Gyres are way better as a generalization. For a long tank I think they are better because they move the water further meaning "maybe" less pumps would be needed. I also love the idea that I can place it directly in front of coral and the corals doesn't close up when the Gyre is running. This cannot be done with any other powerhead. I hate the controller for the Gyre and don't own an Apex so I think Vortech's controllability is leaps and bounds beyond the Gyre when comparing as standalone units. I run both in my tank. I have a gyre 150, mp60 and mp40 and I love the mix. I think they all complement each other in my tank.

[ganjero]

Originally Posted by eg8r210

Yes, they both can create the same type of flow. The gyre feels like an ocean wave spread across quite a distance and the the RWs/Vortechs/Tunze all feel like a hose with a spray nozzle. Sure all these different powerheads push water forward but they are not the same.

I think you are confused. First of all, gyre is not a trademark but rather a type of flow, it is making the body of water move in an uniform circular motion. My point was that gyre flow can be achieved with conventional powerheads if placed correctly, and if you don't like the gyre flow you can change the style of flow without changing powerheads. If you want a gentle motion just get controllable powerheads and reduce the flow.
Sure, when you start a Maxpect Gyre powehead and a conventional powerheads the output will feel different but once the gyre circulation gets going it is the same.

[eg8r210]

Originally Posted by ganjero

I think you are confused. First of all, gyre is not a trademark but rather a type of flow, it is making the body of water move in an uniform circular motion. My point was that gyre flow can be achieved with conventional powerheads if placed correctly, and if you don't like the gyre flow you can change the style of flow without changing powerheads. If you want a gentle motion just get controllable powerheads and reduce the flow.
Sure, when you start a Maxpect Gyre powehead and a conventional powerheads the output will feel different but once the gyre circulation gets going it is the same.

This is not my experience at all. Maybe if your tank length is short but of the standard powerheads mentioned here (Jebao, EcoTech and Tunze) none of them could create anything remotely close to the water movement in a gyre motion that one single Gyre can do. Ignoring the Jebao garbage (mine have all broken and when running required 5 times as much maintenance than my Vortechs) in order to get a gyre motion with the other powerheads you need more than one. At this point those using two Tunze or two Vortech are now spending more money than the Gyre.

[ganjero]

Originally Posted by eg8r210

This is not my experience at all. Maybe if your tank length is short but of the standard powerheads mentioned here (Jebao, EcoTech and Tunze) none of them could create anything remotely close to the water movement in a gyre motion that one single Gyre can do. Ignoring the Jebao garbage (mine have all broken and when running required 5 times as much maintenance than my Vortechs) in order to get a gyre motion with the other powerheads you need more than one. At this point those using two Tunze or two Vortech are now spending more money than the Gyre.

You are correct, you need at least two powerheads to create a gyre flow, but you can even use koralias. Again, I was answering a question that a quoted where the person ask if the gyre would be superior to two RW pump and in my opinion is not. You can do a gyre flow with two rw, they will clog less often and required less maintenace, they will have stronger propellers, bushings, etc....and again if the user is not happy with gyre flow you can turn those two rw in two a different style of flow.