Algae Scrubber vs Algae Reactor

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by OhMatic

Ca1ore
Your DIY algae reactor looks nice! How thick are your top and bottom pieces?
I was thinking of making the same thing size wise 6" X 24". I'm still debating putting lights on the inside vs outside. My feeling is the inside lights would require less cleaning/scrubbing area wise and less time to clean...

Top and bottom pieces are some clear 1/2" acrylic. I would have gone with the light inside a central tube, but couldn't figure out how to easily do it; and wrapping a LED strip around the outside is easy. If it proves to be a worthwhile addition to my nutrient export program, then I may explore a central light. In test running this thing, the external strip lights add material heat to the water.

[OhMatic]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

I would have gone with the light inside a central tube, but couldn't figure out how to easily do it;

Thanks
My thought was to make a center light similar to the ARID & ClearTides I have seen. Which has a center acrylic tube enclosing a metal tube/rod wrapped with LEDs and a heat sink somewhere connected to the metal tube/rod.

I wish I could figure out how to enclose the lights in a vacuum so that the heat would not be able to transfer to the water as easily. This vaccum idea sure works good for my water "Flask"
Maybe someone has already done this??? I don't know if the strength of acrylic or glass would even be enough to hold the pressure of a vaccum

Originally Posted by ca1ore

In test running this thing, the external strip lights add material heat to the water.

Thanks, I suspect the lights for a algae reactor would add heat. My ATS also adds heat, UV adds heat, pumps add heat, lights add heat etc etc.

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by OhMatic

Thanks, I suspect the lights for a algae reactor would add heat. My ATS also adds heat, UV adds heat, pumps add heat, lights add heat etc etc.

I don't think they have to. LED doesn't radiate heat via infra-red like metal halide does, so in the absence of direct contact, LED adds very little heat. Frankly, my system only runs about 1-2 degrees above ambient, almost all from the UV and pumps, so I don't want to do anything that adds heat.

[OhMatic]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

I don't think they have to. LED doesn't radiate heat via infra-red like metal halide does, so in the absence of direct contact, LED adds very little heat. Frankly, my system only runs about 1-2 degrees above ambient, almost all from the UV and pumps, so I don't want to do anything that adds heat.

Yes good point. But my ATS with LEDs did raise my temp. When I measured the in and out temps I was really surprised, I honestly don't remember the exact numbers but it was enough to get me to try a different light cycle: off for 15 min then on for a period of time. The total on and off time was the same but the off time was broken up into 15 min blocks my thinking was the heat sinks could cool. The ATS growth seemed to me to increase when I did the 15 min off, no real scientific proof but it definitely did not reduce the overall growth rate. I also added a fan the the sump where the ATS empties to cool the water down a bit before retuning to the display tank.
In your reactor it looks like the LEDs are touching the reactor?
The reason Why was leaning towards an inside light design was so that I'd only have to clean a 1in center tube instead of a six inch tube. But maybe it's not that much of a difference???

[maxxII]

Originally Posted by Breadman03

Light disperses from a source quite rapidly, which I think would give the ARID the potential to be more energy efficient, though that is only one factor among many to be considered. I suspect that maintenance may be more challenging than a refugium.

Maintenance on the ARID is easy.
Seriously.

Turn off feed pump.
Allow reactor to drain.
Remove top/effluent hose via Quick Disconnect fitting.
Remove inner light core/heat sink, (sits in central tube, held in by gravity. Isolated from reactor, does not get wet).
Unscrew 6-8 nylon thumbscrews, (depending on size of reactor).
Lift out chaeto chambers from reactor body.
Remove 1/3-1/2 of chaeto and throw in trash.
Return chaeto chambers and remaining chaeto to reactor body.
Tighten 6-8 thumbscrews.
Return inner light core/heatsink to central tube.
Reattach effluent tube via quick disconnect fitting.
Turn on feed pump.


All of that took just about as long to type as it takes to do in real life.

I've never used an ATS before, but I'm betting that depending on the set up, there are just as many steps to cleaning and maintenance as on an ARID.

About the fastest maintenance I think you'll find is in a Fuge....reach over, remove algae, throw away.

Otherwise, ARID's are really easy and take up alot less room than many ATS systems I've seen and Refugiums I've seen.

Where I think the ATS and the Refugiums win is in initial cost, and pod farming. I dont have nearly as many pods in the ARID as I used to have in a Fuge.

[gcarroll]

Originally Posted by maxxII

Maintenance on the ARID is easy.
Seriously.

Turn off feed pump.
Allow reactor to drain.
Remove top/effluent hose via Quick Disconnect fitting.
Remove inner light core/heat sink, (sits in central tube, held in by gravity. Isolated from reactor, does not get wet).
Unscrew 6-8 nylon thumbscrews, (depending on size of reactor).
Lift out chaeto chambers from reactor body.
Remove 1/3-1/2 of chaeto and throw in trash.
Return chaeto chambers and remaining chaeto to reactor body.
Tighten 6-8 thumbscrews.
Return inner light core/heatsink to central tube.
Reattach effluent tube via quick disconnect fitting.
Turn on feed pump.


All of that took just about as long to type as it takes to do in real life.

I've never used an ATS before, but I'm betting that depending on the set up, there are just as many steps to cleaning and maintenance as on an ARID.

About the fastest maintenance I think you'll find is in a Fuge....reach over, remove algae, throw away.

Otherwise, ARID's are really easy and take up alot less room than many ATS systems I've seen and Refugiums I've seen.

Where I think the ATS and the Refugiums win is in initial cost, and pod farming. I dont have nearly as many pods in the ARID as I used to have in a Fuge.

To me, easy went out the window with the word thumbscrews. My calcium reactor doesn't have thumbscrews since I despise them so much!

And no a fuge is not the fastest maintenance. Not having one at all is!

That being said I like the ARID but I think sometimes reefers become more focused on growing algae rather than focusing on their corals.

My question for you guys is this. If you did the same dosing of the tank that ARID suggests as well as the same amount of light as the ARID, will you get much improved results on a standard fuge or algae scrubber? I suspect that you will.

[OhMatic]

Originally Posted by maxxII

Maintenance on the ARID is easy.
Seriously...

Do you get algae growth (like the inside of a tank) on the central tube that you need to clean off ?

Do you get any heat from your algae reactor?

[ksed]

Interesting video. You can grow macro algae in that as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOSI5WhlNAA

[maxxII]

Originally Posted by gcarroll

To me, easy went out the window with the word thumbscrews. My calcium reactor doesn't have thumbscrews since I despise them so much!

And no a fuge is not the fastest maintenance. Not having one at all is!

That being said I like the ARID but I think sometimes reefers become more focused on growing algae rather than focusing on their corals.

My question for you guys is this. If you did the same dosing of the tank that ARID suggests as well as the same amount of light as the ARID, will you get much improved results on a standard fuge or algae scrubber? I suspect that you will.

Greg, I hate thumbscrews too. Ever since I ran GFO in the first version of a TLF Phosban reactor.

These really are different, not a PITA at all.
Seriously.

I cant speak for anyone but me, and my experiances first hand. Like I state in the first post on the ARID thread, I had high PO4 levels, and doing frequent regular, massive water changes and using ALOT of GFO was only barely keeping them in check. I was also unable get meaningful results with a chaeto in a normal fuge.

I suspect that my magnesium levels may have been elevated to around 1500,(which will cause chaeto to go dormant), but I cant confirm since I wasnt keeping a journal at that time,(that was back in 2007/2008). I'm no longer dosing NO3 or iron supplements to system, just running the ARID. I even pulled my skimmer offline because the ARID was so effective at pulling PO4, that it was killing corals. I literally had 0.00 ppm of PO4 (as measured by Hanna 96713) for several months.

Skimmer was over sized for the system,(140 gallon system with SRO 5000 internal), and I just stopped dosing at the same time I pulled the skimmer out.

PO4 was just tested last week at 0.04 ppm ,(Hanna 96713), with NO3 tested at 5ppm via Salifert.

I dont know if dosing NO3 and iron & manganese will give better results to ATS users or Refugium users. Like you, I also suspect it would.

I'm a long time hobbyist like yourself and others, and have also come to realize there are many ways to accomplish one's "goals" in this hobby. Each way usually has some form of trade off, but if that's understood/planned for in advance, then it's can be worked around.

Personally, the ARID works great for me and my needs. It might not work as well for others,

OR

Others may be able to obtain similar results another way.

Whatever works best for you,(meaning anyone, not you specifically), is the method you should use. Again, just speaking generically, not to you specifically in this case.

[maxxII]

Originally Posted by OhMatic

Do you get algae growth (like the inside of a tank) on the central tube that you need to clean off ?

Do you get any heat from your algae reactor?

Not really.
I had a little bit of hair algae get into the reactor, so I had to clean it out once,(been using the ARID since April 2015), and once I scrubbed it, no additional issues.

Chaeto is the algae of choice because it sucks up PO4 quickly and it's more easily removed/exported than turf algaes.

Pax Bellum reccomends pulling 1/3 of the chaeto out monthly and wiping down the reactor while doing so, but I havent found the wiping down to be necessary beyond the one time with hair algae.

No heat added to tank from reactor itself, the heat sink on top is VERY effective. It gets uncomfortably hot while lights are on, to the point of not quite burning yourself, but wanting to keep your bare palm on it for long periods of time while its running either.

The maxijet feed pump might add some heat, but that's kinda inconsequential IMO.

[reefkeeper2]

I had an ATS for years but had to disassemble it when I redid my sump. It did a very good job but it used a lot of electricity and was a pita to clean. I really need another one but I see the ARID has some advantages I really like. First off it uses only 45 watts of electricity. Second it would be a breeze to clean compared with what I had to do with my ATS. It's also neat, clean and compact. The big negative is the extreme cost. I would need the larger model for my 427 gal display and that would be $1500.00!

[DamonG]

One week growth in fuge...

[outy]

Originally Posted by reefkeeper2

I had an ATS for years but had to disassemble it when I redid my sump. It did a very good job but it used a lot of electricity and was a pita to clean. I really need another one but I see the ARID has some advantages I really like. First off it uses only 45 watts of electricity. Second it would be a breeze to clean compared with what I had to do with my ATS. It's also neat, clean and compact. The big negative is the extreme cost. I would need the larger model for my 427 gal display and that would be $1500.00!

Your doing it all wrong.

A double sided 10" screen with 2 30w grow floodlights uses about 45w of light and can be made under a $100 including light cost.


Tank size means nothing. How many cubes you deed dictates screen size.



I use about 23w and a 12" screen lit one side for one cube a day, and mine is easy to clean for a 213G tank. Mine was under $50 with the light.

[OhMatic]

Outy
I think the $1,500.00 Reefkeeper2 was referring to is for an Algae Reactor (Pax Bellum ARID C30) not a ATS.

What if you put a screen like the ones used in ATSs and lined the inside of an algae reactor tube. I wonder if any ARID users have tried this... ?

[maxxII]

Why would you?
The ARID is designed as a flow through reactor specifically for chaetomorpha. Other types algae will grow inside an ARID, but the design is optimized for chaeto.

Turf algae does well with very little water, (just running down a screen) and this also allows it to be scraped off the screen easier.

Putting the screen in the ARID for the purpose of growing turf algae just adds to the maintenance of an ARID. It would make more sense to just build an ATS which is optimized for turf algae.

Taking an expensive reactor to grow an algae it isnt optimized to grow, and in doing so, increasing your maintenance requirements, doesnt seem like a useful thing to me.

I'm not bashing you in anyway, and I hope it doesnt come off like I am, because that is not my intent.

I'm just stating that it seems like a waste of money to me. If you want to grow turf algae, build an ATS. If you want to grow chaeto, use a Fuge or an ARID.

[ontop27]

I never had luck with scrubbers personally. Tried santa monica and didnt have much luck and hated the air pump. Tried an ebay one that was basically a convered hang on back filter which looked nice and was very well designed but not much again. Started using a reactor with a home depot strip light and best results i ever had. Even beat a refugium i had (in tank and in sump ones)

[OhMatic]

ontop27
I also have an "ebay" scrubber, its in a box, I never used it, I bought it mostly because I wanted to know how it was made and the LED used and they accepted a crazy low offer lol.
I never got a SantaMonica scrubber I don't like their design: cleaning wise and air pump. I do have a L4 HF Rev3 From TurboAquatics I like it but it is not big enough. In my experience the L4 has not lived up to claims of "four cubes a day" So I ordered an Algae Reactor and some things to make a DIY center light reactor.
I noticed you have an outer light reactor. How long has it been running? Do you need to clean the inside of your reactor? Which HD strip light did you use?

[ca1ore]

If you have even a slight inclination to DIY, making a ATS is a trivial undertaking. OK, I've been running them for decades and have built my fair share of duds, but current waterfall designs really are pretty straightforward. At the time I made mine, the commercial options were decidedly underwhelming.

[OhMatic]

ca1ore,
I urge people all the time to use Algae Scrubbers. Why is it soo many people love skimmers so much (I skim 24/7) but are hesitant about algae scrubbers? or say things like "I didn't have luck with scrubbers"
I even built a ATS for a lady I work with just to get her to try it. After using it she wanted to pay me for it...
And I agree ATSs are probably a lot easier to build than most people think. I mean growing algae is not rocket science.... I had used refugiums for many years but now prefer the ATS.
I am getting/purchasing an Algae Reactor because my ATS is not doing enough for me. If the Algae Reactor works good enough maybe Ill take the ATS offline who knows.... I want to also build a DIY algae reactor just because its something I have not built yet.

[OhMatic]

I guess I'll just have to try the screen on the inside of the reactor when I get mine. I don't think it will hurt or decrease the reactors effectiveness. And adding screens wouldn't require any modification to the reactor. Other than not being able to see chaeto growth as well (cut a window in the screen) and having one more thing to clean/scrap off what's the downside to the experiment?

[OhMatic]

Originally Posted by DamonG

One week growth in fuge...

DamonG
What light is on your fuge?

[DamonG]

Originally Posted by OhMatic

DamonG
What light is on your fuge?

MarsHydro Mars300 Mars600 LED Grow Light(Mars300 with Veg/Bloom Spectrum for Hydroponic Indoor Greenhouse/Garden Plant Growing, 132W True Watt Panel) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00XC3LBI2..._9Ym.wb2F5750J

[OhMatic]

Thanks DamonG

[OhMatic]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

If you have even a slight inclination to DIY, making a ATS is a trivial undertaking. OK, I've been running them for decades and have built my fair share of duds, but current waterfall designs really are pretty straightforward....

Ca1ore
What is the size of the screen you use for your current ATS?

[OhMatic]

This is my third week of using both a ATS and an algae reactor and the ATS is doing a much better job the way I have them set up