Help Getting Bean Animal Siphon Going

[Kengar]

This is the first time I've tried to use a Bean Animal setup. On test runs of the system using just a single return pump (plan is for there to be two), the siphon doesn't seem to be running any faster than the Durso line, even with no restrictions on the siphon line.

The two lines are 1.5", and I've set things up in the overflow box as inverted J's or candy canes, using a pair of street 90's to form a complete U-shaped curve at the top of each. I drilled a 1/4" hole in the very top of the arc on the Durso line to prevent siphoning. Both J's come up to the same height, so the weir the water has to spill over to start down the pipe is at pretty much the same height for each. However, I added an extension to the inlet on the siphon line so that its entrance is closer to the bottom of the overflow box than the entrance to the Durso line is.

The siphon line extends about 15" down from the box before turning almost 90 degrees with a large-radius elbow to pass through wall to filtration room on the opposite side, with another 4" drop or so as it angles down to the sump. Yes, I realize that introduces back pressure/retards the "pull" of the falling water in the siphon tube, but it's what I've got to work with.

To get the Bean Animal system going, do you have to "overwhelm" the siphon with water first, to overcome the bubble of air that will be in the top part of the siphon initially? If that's the case, perhaps I am not putting water into the DT at a fast enough rate. Trying to hide return pump under the DT has introduced 3 hard 90 degree bends in 3/4" line, and water clearly isn't flowing into the DT at rate I know the pump is capable of producing. (Yet another idea for this build getting scrapped......)








(In the last photo, the siphon line is the one coming in above the Durso line. The flow splitter to feed the pair of ClariSeas will eventually be hooked into the siphon line and will be lower down than as currently shown.)

Nothing has been easy with this build......

[mcgyvr]

Where is the valve on the full siphon line?

[homer1475]

Originally Posted by Kengar

To get the Bean Animal system going, do you have to "overwhelm" the siphon with water first, to overcome the bubble of air that will be in the top part of the siphon initially?

This right here. You have to be able to purge the siphon of air in order for it to become a full siphon.



Similar to a herbie setup where the full siphon has to be completely submerged for the air to become purged out.



Bean animal is basically a herbie with a third emergency for redundancy.

[NikonN8]

...And in order to be able to purge the air, your siphon line has to be just barely under the water surface to minimize the water needing to be displaced.

Then it's off to the races.

[Kengar]

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Where is the valve on the full siphon line?

Not connected yet. It will go between the wall and the flow split (just upstream of the ClariSeas) on the sump-side of the wall. Just trying to test things out right now and figured that the first thing I want to see get established is full-bore siphon......

[DougSupreme]

Shorten the "J" so the siphon starts taking water well before the open channel. It doesn't matter where the opening is, it matters the height that the water starts to fall.

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[Kengar]

Originally Posted by homer1475

Similar to a herbie setup where the full siphon has to be completely submerged for the air to become purged out.

It doesn't appear that I'm getting the siphon completely submerged. The line feeding the pump water from the sump has a hump (pass-through hole in the wall is too high; need to raise the sump an inch or two or shoot another hole closer to floor) and air is getting trapped, so between that, the number of tight 90's, and the height of the siphon J in the box, no siphon.......

Need to put the toys away for the week and come at this again next week....

Like I said in first post, this whole project has been a major case of I guess we do it because it feels so good when we stop......

[Kengar]

Originally Posted by DougSupreme

Shorten the "J" so the siphon starts taking water well before the open channel. It doesn't matter where the opening is, it matters the height that the water starts to fall.

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Yeah, that was one of the things I was planning to do, as per post I just posted as you were posting.


Now if I had only assembled things using threaded connections instead of gluing everything in place, from the union to the pipe to the bulkhead to the J inside the box (big mistake!), we wouldn't have to be cutting things apart and buying more parts! Thanks, McGyver :P

Thanks all for the input!

[DougSupreme]

Originally Posted by Kengar

Yeah, that was one of the things I was planning to do, as per post I just posted as you were posting.


Now if I had only assembled things using threaded connections instead of gluing everything in place, from the union to the pipe to the bulkhead to the J inside the box (big mistake!), we wouldn't have to be cutting things apart and buying more parts! Thanks, McGyver

Thanks all for the input!

I don't glue anything in the overflow box. I have a strainer only on my siphon. No need for the hook

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[Kengar]

Originally Posted by DougSupreme

No need for the hook

Meaning the siphon pipe just sticks straight up with open end facing up? I guess that would work since you are throttling back the flow with the valve, which would keep the siphon line full since you are throttling back until the Durso/open line, which has higher flow-over barrier, starts to pick up some of the flow. This would avoid the issue of needing to purge air, too......


I should start buying my replacement parts in bulk...... maybe they'll cut me some slack.....

[DougSupreme]

Originally Posted by Kengar

Meaning the siphon pipe just sticks straight up with open end facing up? I guess that would work since you are throttling back the flow with the valve, which would keep the siphon line full since you are throttling back until the Durso/open line, which has higher flow-over barrier, starts to pick up some of the flow. This would avoid the issue of needing to purge air, too......


I should start buying my replacement parts in bulk...... maybe they'll cut me some slack.....

Put a strainer on it. I've lost fish because they got sucked down the siphon pipe

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[Kengar]

But facing up, not down, correct?

[DougSupreme]

Yes

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[mcgyvr]

Until you finish plumbing it properly per the requirements of the bean setup don't waste your time chasing ghosts..
Get the valve on the full channel and get the ends of the 2 lines just submerged under the water level in the sump (1" max)..

The full and partial drains can be identical (same height) the partial just needs the hole in the top (and having a tube is MUCH better than a hole in the elbow)..

Get it right then it will just work properly..

[Kengar]

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

the partial just needs the hole in the top (and having a tube is MUCH better than a hole in the elbow)..

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

[mcgyvr]

Just drilling a hole in the top does not allow for adjustment of the switchover point where the partial siphon becomes a full channel..

In beans pictures there is a john guest fitting with tubing coming out of the top cap in the partial siphon..
That allows you to place the open end of that tube at whatever height you want to fine tune the switchover point..

Currently during startup water could easily go over the tops of the elbows thus essentially making the partial siphon act like a full channel thus causing some competition between the 2..
If a tube was there so that the opening was higher then this will not happen..

[Darth_Tater]

You want the durso line to turn into a siphon line if the water level gets too high due to the main line being blocked. That's the reason for the tube.

When the water level reaches the opening of the tube it starts a siphon. Otherwise your emergency lines won't be able to handle as much as the main siphon line in an emergency.

[Kengar]

I'll be re-doing things. If the overflow box were taller, I'd go with the straight-up siphon tube a la Herbie style. But given the size of the box and the limited ability to have the Durso channel higher than the siphon channel (bottoms of the spill-over portion of each), with likelihood of siphon pulling air in from above the surface of the water and not establishing full siphon for a while, I think I need to stick with inverted J configuration.

Hook will be positioned lower down, so that the bottom of the J is closer to the bottom of the box. I'll position the ClariSeas higher in the pre-sump tank they sit in, to reduce how far underwater the inlet is (to minimize how far down the trapped bubble of air needs to be pushed under water to purge the siphon).

Re tube vs. hole at top of the Durso elbows, not a lot of room to work with. Cross braces for the overflow box cross right over. I'll have siphon hook as far down as possible and the Dursu hook as far up as possible (while still inside the box) to prevent competing siphons from being formed. Having open end of the third line slightly below it should help; it's only if THAT gets overwhelmed and water rises past it that the Durso line becomes full siphon......

[Kengar]

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Until you finish plumbing it properly per the requirements of the bean setup don't waste your time chasing ghosts..
Get the valve on the full channel and get the ends of the 2 lines just submerged under the water level in the sump (1" max)..

The full and partial drains can be identical (same height) the partial just needs the hole in the top (and having a tube is MUCH better than a hole in the elbow)..

Get it right then it will just work properly..

You were right in re "get it right then it will work just properly." Working like a charm! Siphon line drops, makes a large-radius bend, and then passes through wall. The gate valve is just on the other side of the wall, then the flow spits at a Y junction to feed two ClariSea filter units. I have a Sicce ADV 9.0 pushing a ton of flow -- you can really see how much by the rippling as it passes through spill-over grate in sump -- and things are really quiet on the tank side -- just a slight sound of trickling water as the water enters the internal overflow box (Modular Marine unit). See below:











In re how far the siphon line should be submerged, it's interesting how sensitive that is. I had the system running well, adjusted the height of the ClariSea filters for some purpose, which pushed the inlet to the filters about another 1.5" lower into the water, and the siphon just wouldn't start no matter how much I adjusted things.

Re the open line (the Durso line), I have it just over the water so I can see and adjust flow through it fairly easily. The emergency overflow line, on the other hand, terminates well above the water, so if anything happens and flow starts going through it, I should hear splashing pretty clearly and know to check things out.