Price of DIY LED lamp vs Brand

[saf1]

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

Glad to hear it.

I don't want to come off as discouraging DIY. I think people should DIY if they want to. I just feel that if someone new to LED DIY for reef tanks decided to give it a try purely because they think they'll save money, they will be disappointed.

I don't take it that way at all. I think a hobby is a hobby and everyone in it is different. There is no single recipe for success in this hobby and a lot of us do it differently. Doesn't mean right or wrong. DIY is no different. My comment, which is also just my opinion, is that DIY lighting is cheaper and has been so far.

[saf1]

Originally Posted by d0ughb0y

this is misleading, as you are not comparing apples to apples.

No, not really. I said off the shelf products or shrink wrap vs DIY. Difficult to compare but lighting is lighting. Control is control. Intensity, spectrum, etc. So no - not apples to apples but means to an end still applies.

In a previous thread, another person who did diy led also insists it is cheaper and not ugly, then posts a picture of his work. man, was it fugly. but I guess if you made it yourself, objectiveness goes out the window.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. On a more serious if one has a canopy you won't see them. If one is using a floating shelf, pendant, ugly could be an issue. I would assume, maybe incorrectly, that those going a DIY route would factor in aesthetics. No differently than if they build their own stand, canopy, or anything else (wire / cable management, plumbing, etc).

and no it is not a personal choice since the stated objective is to save money (refer to post #1 of this thread). If that was not the objective,and instead it was for learning, then yes, it becomes a choice.

If the objective is to save money, post one per your reference, then that is also met. In my example, and with my current DIY build, I saved over 2,000.00 US dollars. If I was to purchase 4 radions running 650 dollars each that is about 2600...pick Kessil and they are about 250 each, Mitras are what, 600? Do the math it adds up. Since I have a controller (Reef Angel) and can control 6 channels already via PWM I don't need the bells and whistles. I don't remember my exact total for my LED system it is within 400 and 600 dollars which saves me 2,000.

Aesthetics is a moot point for me since my lighting is under a canopy. Intensity, control, spectrum are all met. Price met. I don't have customer support to call nor is my setup UL listed. Quick call to the insurance company says I'm still covered.

Life is good.

[oreo57]

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

I agree. But, I don't think you should associate DIY with the ability to fix something. If I chose to, I would have no problem fixing the commercial light fixture hanging over my current tank.

More daunting and risky (mostly financial) than a DIY.. i.e fix a dead driver on a Radion..
Can you bypass WiFi?

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

Meanwhile, there are countless examples on this very forum of people DIYing a fixture who clearly don't have the skills to repair anything (and probably shouldn't be DIYing a critical tank component in the first place, at least not without a bunch more learning).

Darwin

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

The sentence you quoted was more intended to address the fact that a good commercial unit will come with a warranty and an assumption of good customer service.

hit and miss.
Explaining issue as they insist on troubleshooting first..
Shipping time.. usually both ways?? Days..
Try to jumper past a dense matrix LED on a Kessil..

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

If my kessil dies a fee weeks after I bought it, I can make a phone call and a new one will show up on my porch.

Again how fast?
What do you do in the meantime?
How many hours figuring out a temp solution.
ect

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

Im not trying to blow this out of proportion, I'm just trying to explain because you seemed to slightly misinterpret my post.

Was pulling your chain a bit..
Maybe design a flow chart, you know like:
start w/ .. Is a warranty important Yes/no..Is there a commercial unit you like yes/no Is price no object yes/no
Can you solder small things? YES/NO .. Does this make sense to you (Ohms law) yes no..."Might" be fun...

O/p seems long gone BTW...

[d0ughb0y]

Originally Posted by saf1

If the objective is to save money, post one per your reference, then that is also met. In my example, and with my current DIY build, I saved over 2,000.00 US dollars. If I was to purchase 4 radions running 650 dollars each that is about 2600...pick Kessil and they are about 250 each, Mitras are what, 600? Do the math it adds up. Since I have a controller (Reef Angel) and can control 6 channels already via PWM I don't need the bells and whistles. I don't remember my exact total for my LED system it is within 400 and 600 dollars which saves me 2,000.

.

lol, it was specifically mentioned the diy to be like a hydra 26hd.
I said that not anyone can write good refined software / firmware. that alone makes attaining the cost objective impossible, even for you.

Its good you are a fan of diy. as I mentioned, we need more makers. as I think 99.9% here don't do or are not interested in diy.

I made one big diy (controller), took me about a year to do. started from knowing 0 about arduino and by the end, was writing bare metal code (not your typical arduino code). diy of something new or something that really costs a lot is still very feasible. but not led fixtures, as Ron mentioned several low priced chinese black boxes that are quite good make it not worthwhile to diy led fixtures.

[saf1]

Originally Posted by d0ughb0y

lol, it was specifically mentioned the diy to be like a hydra 26hd.
I said that not anyone can write good refined software / firmware. that alone makes attaining the cost objective impossible, even for you.

You really like to split hairs. And no, it doesn't make the cost impossible. It comes down to if the person is able with enough skill and wants to. Read the threads in this forum - plenty of people building kits using Arduino or custom fabricated LED's, controllers, drivers, par sensors, etc. There are some damn smart people here.

It is a personal choice in the end. I guess we agree to disagree which is perfectly fine. No harm.

[oreo57]

Originally Posted by d0ughb0y

I said that not anyone can write good refined software / firmware. that alone makes attaining the cost objective impossible

bluefish mini and full blown bluefish..
If one wants to try hacking a Coralux is a "simple" fix.
Plenty of sketches to start..

Nobody needs to reinvent the wheel here..

TC-420/421 modified gives you 5 channels.. one short of course..

Can't count the times people insisted on building from scratch when they can just take a Typhon and or Storm and just add their own software..

Only really saves about $20...........

Some of "the best" commercial apps have something lacking for someone..
Like Radions don't sync to the moon phases ect..

Kessils foo bars ect..
Which OS does the app run on?
Which cloud?
Is it secure?.. ect
Need more parts? I.e "their" module..

There is no, currently, perfect software.. anywhere..

Should I mention "blinkup"?..

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Originally Posted by saf1

I don't take it that way at all. I think a hobby is a hobby and everyone in it is different. There is no single recipe for success in this hobby and a lot of us do it differently. Doesn't mean right or wrong. DIY is no different. My comment, which is also just my opinion, is that DIY lighting is cheaper and has been so far.

I wouldn't disagree with that. As you're describing, it Can be cheaper depending on what you account for (don't count time or support costs) and depending on what design elements have to be identical in order for it to count as comparable to a specific commercial unit. I'm right there with you. I didn't count my time or the appearance of the fixture when I built the massive rig over my 360g. I probably spent between $500-1000 and at the time, a comparable commercial array would have probably been $5k.maybe $2k today. So yeah, you can absolutely save money.

On the other end of the spectrum, some commercial fixtures would be hard to duplicate well. I've built a lot of small fixtures that are roughly equivalent to the kessil 160 on my nano, but it's really hard to get the fit and finish and packaging of the 160 for an average DIY hobbyist. If the package is super important it's not gonna happen at all for most DIYers, much less at a cheaper price.

[d0ughb0y]

Originally Posted by oreo57

bluefish mini and full blown bluefish..
If one wants to try hacking a Coralux is a "simple" fix.
Plenty of sketches to start..

Nobody needs to reinvent the wheel here..

That's what I did in another thread, is to add the bluefish with wifi etc to the total costs to compare and it came out costing more to prove the point. and the rationalization of the diy led fan was to substitute with the low end version because he does not need wifi. lol, that makes the comparison skewed , exactly as what is happening here, you change the comparison to rationalize and make it look like diy is cheaper. maybe compared to AI or radion, but not with chinese black boxes. You just can't beat the price buying parts retail vs high volume.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Originally Posted by oreo57

Can't count the times people insisted on building from scratch when they can just take a Typhon and or Storm and just add their own software..

Maybe I should have charged for the Typhon design instead of giving it a free open source license. The whole point of that project was to get people interested in DIY for the "fun" of it, not to save cost. In all honesty I don't think it's a good design from an operational perspective, though it is easy to build and easy to experiment with. Kind of the LED controller equivalent of a protoboard.

[d0ughb0y]

also, diy involves a lot of "hidden" costs, or costs intentionally not disclosed (like tools, wrong parts, etc) to make it look cheaper. any diy'er knows exactly what I am talking about.

[oreo57]

Originally Posted by d0ughb0y

comparison to rationalize and make it look like diy is cheaper. maybe compared to AI or radion, but not with chinese black boxes. You just can't beat the price buying parts retail vs high volume.

I never said DIY was cheaper than "black boxes"...

I was quite clear in the price breakdown of the AI vs DIY.. AND the compromises...no more no less.

Also you are the one ignoring the fact I can do 5 channels of Android based wireless for $35....

TC-421 and solder in 5 wires..
Bluefish mini is $100..

ANY of those cheap "strip light" controllers can be modified to do PWM (bypassing the internal MOSFET and using the "gate" circuit)...
NOTE: Barring any design changes and PWM frequency
Many are wireless and under $15...



I'm not the one changing the bar..
Pretty sure my implication was one can do cheaper than expensive lighting..and match the output and functionality w/ in reason..
This is not expensive.. Change TC-420 to 421 for wireless..

http://www.tc420.net/images/TC420/TC...ED-Circuit.png
https://youtu.be/0ukooe0I5nI

not to mention, pretty sure I said it can go either way....... Either more or less depending on ones criteria...
..

[oreo57]

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

Maybe I should have charged for the Typhon design instead of giving it a free open source license. The whole point of that project was to get people interested in DIY for the "fun" of it, not to save cost. In all honesty I don't think it's a good design from an operational perspective, though it is easy to build and easy to experiment with. Kind of the LED controller equivalent of a protoboard.

your inverted 10V PWM as an example..
any place I ever said "just" to save money???

Pretty sure I added one can "adjust" it to their tastes as a criteria..

Again orig. question was CAN one do it cheaper..... I find it odd you would argue any differently..

I would bet that using the same quality parts in a black box, and ignoring any time factors or equipment you actually could do it cheaper.. or equal and better..
3W LEd's on eek bay are 10 cents each..Do it serial/parallel w/ resistors and a Computer power supply.. add cheap PWM string dimmer for $3..
Scavenge a block of aluminum and computer fans and ps's....
Theoretically could build if for less than $50..

want to be a wee bit more expense?
https://sbreeflights.com/sbox-upgrad...pcb-board.html
complete board assembly..$70

https://www.ledsupply.com/led-driver...s-with-dimming
2 drivers
$44....

[d0ughb0y]

you were the one in the other thread making biased comparison. lol.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=19

and someone's fugly diy. lol

[JTL]

I have done a lot of diy over the years and to be honest I am rarely satisfied with the results but I am also my worst critic. I built a led array several years ago, it was ok but not anything like what I have now. To my credit it is still working at the lfs.

I built my own stand a few months ago and it turned out pretty good. It was a little more complicated because I wanted a euro look so the doors had to be recessed and fit perfect. I was off a little but no one will notice. It turned out to be no cheaper than one I could have purchased from Cadlights but I made it to fit the space and made it taller. I do know that it is built from quality materials and not some cheap laminate layed on particleboard. Anyway my point is sometimes it is not cheaper but better.

[saf1]

Originally Posted by JTL

I have done a lot of diy over the years and to be honest I am rarely satisfied with the results but I am also my worst critic.

That is the case usually with everyone. We are not God (or whatever you may or may not believe in). One tries their best. A lot of people won't see the mistakes but yet the crafter knows it is there. I just finished wainscoting in my office. Lots of work, several mistakes that I'm aware of and would love to correct. Everyone who comes over thinks it is the best thing since sliced bread or its the bees knees. I politely thank them but know it is far from perfect...

There was a thread somewhere around here along the lines of 'ghetto rig' and I think that falls into the unsafe and ugly bucket. DIY, like I said before some people have mad skills...I admire. Heck, I admire anyone trying myself included.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Originally Posted by oreo57

Again orig. question was CAN one do it cheaper..... I find it odd you would argue any differently..

I wouldn't argue against the fact that it "can" be done cheaper. You're right - if you bend some of the strictness of "duplicating" an off the shelf unit, and ignore labor cost, and ignore tooling and knowledge cost, and ignore the (potential) value of support or warranty, you CAN absolutely do it cheaper. And you're right, I've spent a lot of time posting on these very forums about how cheaply you can DIY a suitable LED rig, compared to commercial costs. Despite agreeing with that, I thought it was worthwhile to temper that by saying that I don't think "doing it cheaper" is the most satisfying motivation for DIY, and it's elusive at best.

That said, we each get to choose our own motivations in life, so if someone else thinks cost IS a valid motivation, I can't claim they're wrong, I can just supply my own opinion.

[oreo57]

Originally Posted by d0ughb0y

also, diy involves a lot of "hidden" costs, or costs intentionally not disclosed (like tools, wrong parts, etc) to make it look cheaper. any diy'er knows exactly what I am talking about.

Well there is that..
Not mine..but might as well be.

Originally Posted by d0ughb0y

you were the one in the other thread making biased comparison. lol.

Your consistent point seems to be ALL DIY is more expensive based on cheap manual black boxes..

Can't see how I didn't prove that one could build a Hydra-like for cheaper even w/ WiFi..
Of course getting used anything.. price can be from free to whatever the market will bear..

to be completely honest, I suspect most DIY is to get both what they want at hopefully, an affordable price...and to mix and match to a certain extent..

DIY is def. not for everyone.. but neither is buying off the rack..

THAT said....I have yet to find a light I couldn't believe I couldn't make better...(???)
Only criteria is how much better..and yes, cost..

Or, secondly, may go "obsolete" .. Like old RB/W 50/50 LEDs..

You know if it wasn't for DIY-ers..they may have stayed JUST that way..
One forgets that most advances are just commercial DIY's.. not accepting the status quo..

Third.. DIY helps to bring the cost of commercial down .. Arguable..

[kampo]

Big reason I'm diying my lights is I really could honestly get 2xai primes for my cube project both marine and fresh. But I don't think the diode choices made on either light are ideal for what I want. So I'm going to make a simlar fixture,. Prolly only save 100 bucks overall. But the bennifit is I gain more control over the spectrum I want for both tanks thru diode selection, and still have 5 channels of dimming available. Will still look clean everything visable will be in a mean well slim heatsink with one cable hooked to it.

[lingwendil]

Originally Posted by d0ughb0y

you were the one in the other thread making biased comparison. lol.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=19

and someone's fugly diy. lol

Hey man, the fixture under those wires looks as nice as any off the shelf product





Not really a fair comparison at all, considering that the fixture itself is completely self contained inside the enclosure, with just two ports for power and PWM on the end.

The heatsink enclosures from rapidLED are arguably as nice or nicer than any black box type fixture. The only wiring you see on the outside is for the controller I'm working on. I wanted this fixture to work with multiple controllers, otherwise I would have put it all in the fixture.



https://www.rapidled.com/premium-enclosures/

I'm just too busy and tired lately to put the controller all in the nice case I have for it. Working 60+ hours a week, and driving two hours home after each shift leaves little time.


I'll let you guys do the math, but this was a cheap enough build. 2x 24w pucks from blueAcro, 2x LDD-L drivers, and the heatsink setup. Add a controller (arduino solutions can be built for less than $15) of your choice and go.

Using a "black box" as a benchmark is a fool's errand, as the issues with them (and longevity) are widely known. Find me a fixture for black box money that uses real LEDs like Luxeon, Cree, Osram, SemiLEDs or similar and it will be a much better comparison.

[blasterman789]

Epistar -vs- Semi is like McDonald's -vs- Burger King. Both are low end, and not exactly using the most efficient tech. Also so cheap you can buy them buy the dozens for dollars.

I was one of the first to start building my own rigs, but that was when the only way to get good color (neutrals -vs- cool whites) was to DIY. Now the black boxes use warm LEDs and the issue is covered.

Seen plenty of AI and Radion units with burnt out LEDs and bad drivers. For the price they charge for those things you should get free onsite service like servers in my data center. My black boxes work fine, and the price point I could burn a couple out and still come out ahead.

Yeah... a rig using XPG3 royals and XPLs can easily put out the same PAR as a black box using twice as much energy. Still, it's not worth the time building it. If Cree gave a darn about the reefing industry they'd release XPH-70s and 50's in a royal footprint and you could build some ridiculous fixtures with that kind of energy density. They don't, and 3watt tech is just not worth it for me to do all that stupid soldering.

[Ron Reefman]

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

glad to hear it.

I don't want to come off as discouraging diy. I think people should diy if they want to. I just feel that if someone new to led diy for reef tanks decided to give it a try purely because they think they'll save money, they will be disappointed.

+1000%

[lingwendil]

Originally Posted by blasterman789

Yeah... a rig using XPG3 royals and XPLs can easily put out the same PAR as a black box using twice as much energy. Still, it's not worth the time building it. If Cree gave a darn about the reefing industry they'd release XPH-70s and 50's in a royal footprint and you could build some ridiculous fixtures with that kind of energy density. They don't, and 3watt tech is just not worth it for me to do all that stupid soldering.

I've stepped away from multiple smaller emitters for the bulk of my builds, and other than for the big bruiser I'm doing where I'm using multiple smaller emitters just to find what I want to eventually use on an even bigger build, I'm limiting my use of piles of 3w types. Using bigger COB types of arrays, higher CRI options to limit the need for supplemental colors, and such is what I'm trying for the future.

I just wish we had more high-power options for royal blue, such as the bigger citizen chips.

Even though the K16 royal blue is discontinued, they are a very economical way to go still, and I've got five extras sitting here waiting for me to finish the "bruiser" test fixture.