Pedal laceration in Gigantea

[beuchat]

If you place him in QT with the antibiotic I think it is good for him to throw away the ingested food slowly....

[beuchat]

Well,

It is time to understand that my gig. is not able to handle the bacteria content in the aquarium water. When completly deflated I remove him to QT with antibiotic and he recovers, but when reintroduced in DT he deflates completly in some days...

I changed from cloramfenicol to enrofloxacing, the gig. recovered the sticky properties in QT, but after, in DT he deflates again....

I thought it was possible to recover the nem with the antibiotic, but as far as I have experienced, it is only temporary.

Good luck to all the anemone fans out there!

[reefscape7]

Hi there, Just got a gig last wk- almost just like yours ( but blue ) with a split foot, starting to divide.
I have had to treat him also.. once done thou I have added him to a bucket with a water feed throught a uv and then overflows back to the tank. Bucket is placed over the main tank with the rim just off the water surface ) Slow flow theough a small UV into bucket.
This way he is in the tank water ( but with less pathogens ) and hopfully will recover enough before adding him proper to the tank.

I will post some pics..

[reefscape7]

When I got him.. started looking ill over a few days and so took him to the vet to get anti biobiotics..



after treating in his uv fed bucket



Showing the same foot, starting to split.

[jeffreylesser]

Originally Posted by beuchat

Well,

It is time to understand that my gig. is not able to handle the bacteria content in the aquarium water. When completely deflated I remove him to QT with antibiotic and he recovers, but when reintroduced in DT he deflates completely in some days...

I changed from cloramfenicol to enrofloxacing, the gig. recovered the sticky properties in QT, but after, in DT he deflates again....

I thought it was possible to recover the nem with the antibiotic, but as far as I have experienced, it is only temporary.

Good luck to all the anemone fans out there!

Mine did not make it. As typical the inflation deflation cycles started to increase until the anemone no longer inflated. I never did see any signs of infection though. Even at deaths doorstep the foot looked good. I would say the 12 hour bath seemed to show promise for infection, but there also appears to be a lot of other variables involved in getting one of these anemones to properly acclimate. From my experience with enrofloxacin, it is pretty hard on the animal, the 12 hour bath seemed to be a safe treatment option. Possibly a bath every day. The animal I had in the 5 day bath suffered tremendously under treatment.

On a side note I did use enrofloxacin to successfully treat fin rot in a wrasse using 5 hour daily baths(5 mg/l). It definitely works on fish! A five hour daily bath keeps the biological filtration completely intact in a QT tank, as for five hours the fish is fine in a bucket with a heater and powerhead. It worked well for me and I will do it again(hopefully I won't need too) if the situattion arises.

[shutiny]

Originally Posted by beuchat

Well,

It is time to understand that my gig. is not able to handle the bacteria content in the aquarium water. When completly deflated I remove him to QT with antibiotic and he recovers, but when reintroduced in DT he deflates completly in some days...

I changed from cloramfenicol to enrofloxacing, the gig. recovered the sticky properties in QT, but after, in DT he deflates again....

I thought it was possible to recover the nem with the antibiotic, but as far as I have experienced, it is only temporary.

Good luck to all the anemone fans out there!

I respect what you have done, and am hoping that you will continue your efforts in trying to save this animal. You have a rather unusual gigantea, you made it this far, and I hate to see you loose it. Just wondering, what was the dosage conentration that you were treating?

I tried the clormafenicol @250mg/5gal H2O/5 days and the results were very similar to yours. Then, I tried a loading dose 1g/5gal H2O concentration for the first 12 hr, then @ 500mg/5gal for 14 days and the result thus far seems promising. I used 40gal water volum for 4 anemones and did water chage every 24 hr except the first day.

Why not try it at a higher dose? Do you have access to a lab with negative pressured environment? If you don't, gloved, masked and cover when enter the treatment room should be your routine. May be a temporary out door treatment facility will lower your risks of exposure to the high concentration of the med.

By the ways, I did the study while I was overseas.

[beuchat]

Originally Posted by reefscape7

When I got him.. started looking ill over a few days and so took him to the vet to get anti biobiotics..

I wish you good luck, your giganteas are really nice!, where di you get them?, maybe they ship to Spain, although is defenitively better to pick in LFS.

Originally Posted by jeffreylesser

I would say the 12 hour bath seemed to show promise for infection, but there also appears to be a lot of other variables involved in getting one of these anemones to properly acclimate.

Yes, I agree there are many others variable to consider. Maybe when the infection progresses, althouht treated, there is no way back, just a thought. Probably a profilactic antibiotic in the shiping bag from the wholesaler...

Originally Posted by shutiny

I respect what you have done, and am hoping that you will continue your efforts in trying to save this animal. You have a rather unusual gigantea, you made it this far, and I hate to see you loose it. Just wondering, what was the dosage conentration that you were treating?

Thank you. With cloramfenicol a used 50 mg/l and with Enrofloxacing 10 mg/l. 24 hours bath, water change everyday when possible.

Originally Posted by shutiny

Why not try it at a higher dose?

Well, I am not sure, in Julian Sprung´s book does not recomend a higher dosis, but who knows.... I think that much of we are doing is based on trials and errors and anecdotical experiences. I would be fantastic to have the advise of professional persons like microbiologists. Maybe we could see under the microscope the anemone tissues when healthy and after infected and so. I wrote to a person with a CV full of many investigation scientific articles about anemones and corals but I got no answer.

[reefscape7]

I used Enrofloxacin 5mg per litre to treat...

[reefscape7]

Hi. My blue gig responded fine to the antibiotics, and was also good in the uv fed bucket ( with the tank water ) but as soon as he went back to the tank this afternoon ( a few hours ) he deflated and started showing problems.
Def bacteria in the water me thinks!
I will be treated him and the rest of the gigs now, as there has been cross contamination and the other healthy ones are not looking too good. The plan to treat all the nems and then add a largish box ( mini tank ) and feed water through the UV with a 600l per hour. Hold them for a few weeks like this and let the main tank settle down again...

Ill keep you updated on this.

[beuchat]

Hi reefscape7,

If I understand you, the gigantea does not deflate when placed in the bucket feeded with DT water sterilized with UV?

[reefscape7]

Hi Buchat,

Yes thats right- had the gig like this for 3 days with no problem. Ive taken him out of the main tank proper back to the uv fed bucket and hes re enflated again.
I also add lugols iodine. About 3x strengh to the main tank and 4 drops to the 3 litre bucket every now and again. The proper dosage is 1 drop to 50 gallons- so 4 drops to 3 litres is really quiet strong. It doesnt stay this high as the water is slowly being added Via the UV.
Lugols is potassium iodide with elemental iodine dissolved in. Its very anti bacterial. You add it and the nem absorbes this killing a lot of the interal bacteria.
The gig and haddinis seem ok with the iodine- with the haddonis I have added 15 drops to a 3 litre bucket with no bad effects. They curl a little but in 5 mins they are ok again..
I came up with this method for a blue haddoni a few months back- it worked well as I didnt have anti biotics at the time. The haddoni now.. Lost quiet a lot of its disc to a rotting infection so has a v shape where it goes almost to the mouth. I also added lugols directly to the wound..

[reefscape7]

On a final note- when the nem ' blows smoke ' it definiatly infects other anenomes...
I think it is like if you get flu or a cold- the virus makes you sneeze thereby spreading the infection to other people- with nems its the same- it spreads the pathogen into a water bourn form. The other nems absorbe water and carry the infection into their digestive system and so on..?

[beuchat]

Maybe we can think of "the chemical war" as a pathogen transfer....

[jeffreylesser]

reefscape7, your collection of carpets is absolutely ridiculously amazing.

[OrionN]

Originally Posted by jeffreylesser

reefscape7, your collection of carpets is absolutely ridiculously amazing.

I don't think so. Gigantea, Haddoni and Merten all toughing in the tank with red slime. I am not sure how many of these anemones will be around in a week or two.

[R33f3r]

Not to mention the allelopathy.

[jeffreylesser]

Originally Posted by OrionN

I don't think so. Gigantea, Haddoni and Merten all toughing in the tank with red slime. I am not sure how many of these anemones will be around in a week or two.

Ha! You made me look again. I was mesmerized by the colors... You are right, there is a Mertensi in there too! In the first pic above he has LTAs in the tank as well. I also didn't notice this the first time I looked. I would fail as a detective. I now wonder the goal of this system. I would imagine most of these would have to have been in the system for a while to get that many hard to find anemones. Unless the poster goes to wholesalers? Look at the boxes for the LTAs, this is also odd for a hobbyists tank...

The anemones are still incredibly beautiful and it would be a shame if you are right.

[reefscape7]

[/IMG]:

Originally Posted by OrionN

I don't think so. Gigantea, Haddoni and Merten all toughing in the tank with red slime. I am not sure how many of these anemones will be around in a week or two.

Your a funny man! These nems are in their own system, set up just for them with no skimmer...and hence some cyno..
Allelopathy is not a problem they have been living together for 6 months..and are all from the same biotope
This is my usual work. I only look after about 20 tanks for people and visiting them once per month- hope it meets with your approval mate.

You obviously have a lot more experience than me

[beuchat]

those nems are amazing, I wish you the best of luck!

[5Starreef]

Originally Posted by reefscape7

[/IMG]:

Your a funny man! These nems are in their own system, set up just for them with no skimmer...and hence some cyno..
Allelopathy is not a problem they have been living together for 6 months..and are all from the same biotope
This is my usual work. I only look after about 20 tanks for people and visiting them once per month- hope it meets with your approval mate.

You obviously have a lot more experience than me

Nice answer, your anemones are looking very well, it seems that you know very well what are you doing, the best of luck!

You are posting to help the anemones and other reefers, please keep doing it!

[reefscape7]

just wanted to say- Im not wholesale, and dont sell to the general public but do hold these animals for my clients.

On the nem front- Ive noticed some interesting facts. The gigs that became ill are in a tank with macrodactyla doreensis and heteractis magnifica and mertens. These are not affected by the infections problems only the haddonis and gigs. ( i havent needed to treat any of these only the gigs and haddonis )
I was using baytrill ( which I wouldnt recommend ) but have also tried Chloramphenicol ( which is a lot better ). The infection is very aggressive and if you dont treat in the first day they the gigs have had it TBH. The haddonis are better and seem to usually pull through.

[beuchat]

Originally Posted by reefscape7

The infection is very aggressive and if you dont treat in the first day they the gigs have had it TBH. The haddonis are better and seem to usually pull through.

Yes, that is the reason I think it would be a good idea to always quarantaine with cloramfenicol for two days or so after placing in DT

[reefscape7]

Ill 2nd that- its difficult as almost all gigs you get in normal retail places are really not in gd condition.
The ones I have are caught just for me and then shipped from ocean to me in 4 days!
Usually they are caught and then sit export holding tanks for days, then a few days in shipping, then not always the best conditions on arrival- meaning by the time they get to sale they are on deaths door often..
I def wouldnt use baytrill I dont think- my nems really didnt like it. Better Chloramphenicol if you can get it ( I had to take a nem to the vet to get hold of it!! ) and it cost equiventent of $100 for that..
One thing I did notice- the ph in QT should be noted. Mine was dropping below 8 when lights were off, so added a kalk reactor at 1ml per min to try and stop this.

[jeffreylesser]

Originally Posted by reefscape7

just wanted to say- I'm not wholesale, and don't sell to the general public but do hold these animals for my clients.

I personally would welcome a wholesaler on this discussion. To be honest there are probably some wholesalers/retailers out there who may have in fact figured out a part of this puzzle, but keep that to themselves as a "trade secret". The sheer volume of these animals moving through their systems, I would imagine, would have led many down this same road.

The suggestion by Delbeek/Sprung of potentially using Chloramphenicol is in a book copyrighted in 1997. Surely experimentation/trials like this have happened before. I think it a shame that the health of these animals may be hampered by a lack of desire to share information because of greed. But I digress.

[reefscape7]

If only it were that simple- I do agree that saving these animals would be a good thing.
In reality however I dont think this really happens.
I am trade and buy wholesale in the UK ( i just dont sell to the public ) The sad thing is that gigs are very very cheap from a $$ standpoint. The profits are high but the losses are very low if they die, so generally the work to find a treatment is NOT done
- I do this because most of my stock I hold for months and sometimes years, before adding to my cutomers tanks ( its not just about $$ for me )
All my stock has to survive, as I'll be looking after it for years after adding customers aquariums.

My supplier in the philipiens has said that even with natural sea water holding tanks ( set up on the beach ) the losses with gigs is quiet high due to their delicate nature..

Originally Posted by jeffreylesser

I personally would welcome a wholesaler on this discussion. To be honest there are probably some wholesalers/retailers out there who may have in fact figured out a part of this puzzle, but keep that to themselves as a "trade secret". The sheer volume of these animals moving through their systems, I would imagine, would have led many down this same road.

The suggestion by Delbeek/Sprung of potentially using Chloramphenicol is in a book copyrighted in 1997. Surely experimentation/trials like this have happened before. I think it a shame that the health of these animals may be hampered by a lack of desire to share information because of greed. But I digress.